9x19 Parabellum

I can't imagine we will get 4 (or more) detachments in a BT codex, unless they fully break us off from being able to use the SM detachments (which I don't think is going to happen). Maybe 2. Divergents getting 11+ detachments to choose from is just a straight up bias for us and I think it would be hard for them (GW) to claim any commitment to balance/fairness if a few divergent space marine chapters get twice as many detachments to pick from than every other faction. As for new unit...I predict a big new SM dedicated transport to come out which can pack in a full Crusader squad :-D

@Dracos have you played this list yet/much/at all? My sense (as I said in the other thread) is that everything is going to vehicles, and you don't have enough anti-tank (specifically, long ranged anti-tank) in your list. I think this list could work as a "sit on objectives + kill enemy infantry + hope to weather the storm against vehicles" list. You've got a lot of thicc T5 and T6 3 wound bodies, which is nice, but mortals/devastating are going to chew you up pretty good. The only thing I see in your list that I've had no luck with is the aggressors, but if you're running a biologis w/ bolter discipline you might have better luck than me.

Last week I beat an experienced/competitive 1kSons player so that was good. 2 days ago I beat the crap out of an inexperienced GSC player at 1k points crusade who's just getting back into the game. He had 7 characters at 1k points. SEVEN. Today I got curb-stomped by the 1kSons player I beat last week. @Dracos I've noticed similar stuff as you; the meta is quickly moving to multiple hard-hitting and/or fast vehicle type units. Pretty much every Tau force features a variation on what you described: 18 crisis suits, ghosts, piranhas. I went to watch some of a local 2k pt tourney last weekend and the winning list was Imperial Fists player with: 2 Primaris Techmarines 2 x 3 uzi inceptors 2 Gladiator Lancers 2 Redemptor Dreadnoughts 2 Repulsor Executioners 2 Whirlwinds 1 Predator Destructor Everything was variations of primer grey. Needless to say he tabled everyone. I was super glad I didn't spend my Saturday playing in that tourney.

I've played my Raven Guard the last few games in Gladius Detachment with basically the following setup: -Phobos Lt. (leading incursors) -Primaris Lt. w/ Bolter Discipline (leading Hellblasters) 5 Intercessors 5 Incursors 5 Infiltrators 6 dakka Aggressors 10 Hellblasters 3 Eliminators 3 Eliminators Ballistus Dread Ballistus Dread Redemptor Dread Invictor Tactical Warsuit Repulsor I've done *ok* with it, but got my teeth absolutely smashed in tonight by Thousand Sons. My RG force is a random collection of Primaris stuff because they were my first "Primaris" army back when the Primaris line launched for 8th edition. So they constitute a lot of the 1st-gen Primaris Stuff: 20 intercessors, 6 aggressors, 10 hellblasters, Repulsor, RedDread, as well as some of the later wave 2 stuff: infiltrators, incursors, warsuit and eliminators. The latest wave 3 Leviathan stuff (Ballistus Dreads) plus whatever is coming out in the next few weeks has made for a force that lacks a comprehensive theme or "slot in" to any of the new detachments; I don't have enough phobos stuff to go Vanguard, I don't have enough assault stuff to do the Stormlance, I don't have enough veterans to do First Company. I think the closest thing I have synergistically will be to the "Salamanders" detachment, but that's not really the playstyle I want to do. My fear is that phobos (no pun intended) is going to be yet another iteration of a "meme" army (or, conversely, it will be "good" but will be best played by not actually taking any phobos stuff lol). Anyway, losing the 2nd half of Oath really showed me tonight how anemic our damage output is without it. I don't have high hopes for where we're going to be once the codex launches. Stick to Crusade and narrative play.

While both are viable, I like the twin autocannon better for a generic build for one reason: range. 36" is it's own reward. It also synergizes better with the Invictor's innate ability to provide covering fire for nearby Phobos units. It can't reliably do this with a 12" primary weapon as it's too easy for the enemy to shoot the other phobos units from outside that range. That being said, if you don't intend to use it this way, you can go for the incendium cannon. Another build you could do is the Phobos unit you intend to protect with a Phobos libby, so they can only be shot from 12" away, then keep the invictor close bye ready to open up with the Incedium cannon. But without the ability to Scout or Infiltrate, I just think the Incendium cannon is too short range. I suppose you could also strategic reserve it and bring it on in subsequent rounds to get close, but there are, generally speaking, other units I want to spend my Strategic Reserve alottment on.

Thank you, all, for your responses. This is more or less where I landed too, but I wanted to get feedback because we all have inherent human bias. And no, this is not our first game, or even close. We've probably played a dozen or so games of HH over the last year using these 2 forces.

A Captain in Gravis Armour coming out of a transport that has a couple unused slots is a beast. Give him artificer now you got a T6, 2+,4++,5+++, 6 wounds, who halves damage and hits like a truck in close combat. Also you're not wasting any buffs since he has no bodyguard buffs (his Rites of Battle can be used on anyone). If you play BT you could also give him Tannhauser's Bones and reduce incoming damage to 1/4. (I think).

So, I play Alpha Legion in HH, and my buddy is a Word Bearers player. We regularly face off in 40k, and when we break from 40k to play HH, this is the usual matchup. In general, I think we both try to avoid any blatant gotchas and/or any "if you had recollected <x information> you probably would have made a different target selection, etc" so we allow some takesy-backsies after we do things (but usually not after dice are rolled). An example: if he said he was going to delcare a charge against a unit, I might remind him I'm a further 2" away than normal, which increases the chance he fails the charge and leaves his guys out in the open....stuff like that. The last game we played, it was turn 4 and I had still not used my super-reaction. I had drop-podded in a unit of veterans (almost) into his deployment zone (one of the scoring conditions) and he was having a hard time digging them out. On his turn he moved his Deredeo into position to shoot at them when I declared my super-reaction, which was able to get them out of harm's way to all shooting except the indirect missiles. Not only that, they were also out of the way of his plasma Sicaran which had been mobilized, so it also couldn't shoot them. He got a little salty with me saying I should have reminded him. I mentally said to myself that I would give that some thought and get back to him. I know there is a "no-gotchas" culture developing within 40k and (I think) HH circles. Overall I think it's a good thing and a positive development from the likes of the playstyle of guys like Stephen Box at Vanguard and the guys at Tabletop Tactics or Miniwargaming. They have a very gentleman's social pact going on. Again, I think this is a good thing.... ...but I also think it can get to be a little too much. I don't believe there is or should be a social expectation to fully reveal one's battle strategy. In the case of using my super-reaction, I had been setting this up for almost 3 turns with their positioning, waiting for the absolute perfect time to make best use of it. I don't believe I should be socially required to torpedo my own strategic designs for the sake of this gentleman's pact. I would also argue that the wording and intent of Smoke and Mirrors very much RELIES ON and EXPECTS one's opponent to make a mistake and/or forget about it. Indeed, it even says the opponent CANNOT choose a different target. If I even say something as minor as "You sure about that?", I pretty much advertise my intent to use my super-reaction. Not to mention that the entire fluff and playstyle of Alpha Legion is built on deceit and obfuscation. That being said, I'd like to get some thoughts on this from the community.

I'm inclined to agree. Is there a third scenario here, though? -You can attack infantry, bikes, beasts, swarms, etc, as normal, and the melta bomb doesn't help you. -You can attack V-D-A with the melta bomb and make 1 attack -You can attack V-D-A with normal array of weapons, and the melta bomb counts as an additional weapon so you get +1 attack (but none of those attacks get made with the melta profile) ?

Furthering this question; does a model armed with a meltabomb + any other close combat weapon get the +1A combo ? The meltabombs rule specifcially says if you attack with *it*, you can only make 1 attack, however if you attack with another weapon, would you get +1 A with it?

Yeah, i'm considering just that, Valk. 3 reasons to go with the OG Crusaders: 1. They are cheaper (30 pts) 2. You can throw in a lascannon and other gun of your choice. I love the 1/3 chance of banging out a sustained + lethal hit from the lascannon. 3. The PCS neophytes only have 18" guns, whereas the OG crusader neophytes have 24" guns. Now, I'm not sure if ALL of that above is worth losing -1 ap on 22 of my shots, but the first point of consideration is whether or not the unit will even be around.

So we know that some kits are going away and presumably their datasheets are as well. One that was not mentioned was OG Crusader Squads. One on hand it seems likely since they have a direct replacement and kit (Primaris Crusader Squads). On the other hand, Tactical Marines appear to be sticking around, which means they (OG Crusader Squads) may as well. I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this? I'm tempted to make a 20 man unit of OG Crusaders, all armed with guns, and run them Gladius style with Lt w/ Bolter Discipline for 40 shots, lethal/sustained on 5+. Obviously I don't wanna commit to that project if they are going away.

-I hadn't considered chainswords for the Sword Brethren; I didn't think the extra 1 attack resulted in more converted wounds compared to the +1Str and additional -1AP that power weapons granted you. -I have an instinctual reaction against putting a character into a 5 man unit. I suppose maybe I need to get over that. I don't really like putting in characters onto a 6 man BGV unit either, but 6>5 and they last longer and the BGVA is super cheap at 50 pts. -Regarding the guns, I guess this is a meta-dependant thing; I don't see too much GSC or T3 bodies at my local FLGS, so I'm not evaluating them the same way. -The one thing I'll note above is that the BGV still decimate a 10 man Astartes unit and have some durability to hang around with their invuln, as well as a strong chance to stay in control of the objective, regardless of whatever else might be around. Question for you based on the some of the points you made above, though; do you think that Gladius Detachment is better overall for BT?

Thanks Sir Clausel. Here's the first analysis I did. This is the 330 pt BGV unit I mentioned above (6 BGV, 1 BGV Ancient and 1 Pr. Lt) compared to 10 PSB going into standard MEQ statline: Both units overkill a 10 man unit, but the PSB have more overkill. Obviously, characters and other defensive buffs (FNP's, etc.) will change this. Also, it doesn't account for applied damage, where I think we can say the BGV unit killed ~ 11 MEQ and the PSB kills ~12. Pretty comparable combat results, but the BGV is getting you better objective control, better mitigation against high value counterattacks (ie, 4+ invuln) the ability to fall back and shoot/charge and the ability to use Fervent Acclamation stratagem.

outstanding and beautiful work. A true commitment to stamping out heresy. I love it!