GrinNfool

Hmm, I can't post from the perspective of a DG player, but I have 2 friends that are, and one of them for a little while was feeling like you. So I can share a little about what changed with him, and hope that helps. For a while he too was mulling about that was lost not happy about what was changed etc, but eventually he stopped looking back at what once was, and focused on what he had, and finding fun things he could do with that. Things that even if not optimal were fun for him to do, there are some pretty fun things you can do that weren't possible in the past, and he went for those. He also had another army that plays very different from DG, and he played that for a bit while he was... for lack of a better word, sulking, about the things DG lost. I think playing a more horde based army made him appreciate a lot of the things DG did have, and could do as well. But overall that was his answer, focus on the positives that you can do, no sense worrying about what you can't do anymore. Generic advice I know, but thats just how he handled it. From my perspective, taking a break or focusing on the lore can help get me back into the game if I start to feel a little disconnected sometimes.

For wounding on a hit transhuman doesn't matter you just wound, makes no difference because you never roll. This means they go straight to the save, think of it like auto hit... you wouldn't question if you need to roll a dice to see if any of your flamer shots would have missed. Auto wound is just go straight to the save. If you are worried about conflicting rules then... I believe this would be covered under chapter approved 2021 "Attacker's Priority" bottom middle of page 88. "When resolving attacks you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply - for example, when an attacking model with an ability that enables it to always score a hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability that states it can only be hit on a 6+. When this happens, the attacking model's rule takes precedence." Bullet point "If an attacking model and target unit have conflicting rules the attacking model's rules take precedence." Pretty cut and dry there if rules conflict the attacking model's rule overwrites. So if you say have a rule that says you always wound on a hit roll of 2 and your opponent had some rule that says can't be wounded... you would still wound them on the basis of attackers priority alone.

3 points cheaper + 1a and built in deepstrike, and you think they wouldn't get any play? They would see play doing that if for no other reason as being a cheap way to achieve octarius, engage, or just as cheaper bodies to show up on objectives as needed. To each their own but that seems a bit dismissive. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, what anyone says here, GW isn't listening to anyone on here, and they might not even see reivers as an actual issue.

Honestly I am not sure you need to do anything crazy like new rules or abilities to add, I think they would be serviceable, if you did two things. 1) Make the Grapnel/grav chute free and just let players choose which 1 to bring 2) Let them use knife + carbine, instead of having to choose between being a worse assault intercessors or a worse intercessor, let them be right in the middle, 2 shots and not a chainsword, they would be designed to handle low armor threats and hordes which their psycological warfare stuff they have is pushing them towards anyways. Leaving them at 18ppm and just giving them one of the deepstriking options at the players discretion on top of having a carbine + knife loadout would make them useable, maybe not good, but at least they would see the table. If nothing else as "cheap" bodies with a jack of all trades role. If you wanted to take them from at least seeing the table sometimes to actually being good, you could just give the knife and ap and the carbine being exploding 6s to hit or 3 shot, though thats trampling on the assault bolter a bit.

The way vigil works is very vague... RAW its selected on a per unit basis, but the selection used can't be repeated by any squad, as they are two seperate bullet points. The wording says nothing about applying a tactic to the whole army... each unit is granted the ability to "at the start of the battle round you can choose a different chapter or successor tactic at the start of each battle round, THIS UNIT uses that has that tactic til the beginning of the next battle round." with the 2nd bullet point stating no choice can be repeated during the game. RAI... you could assume its supposed to apply to the army, or you could assume its supposed to be essentially free uses of brotherhood for the benefit. I will say though if it is for the entire army the ability is... a lot less good unless you design the army completely combat or something. Will be curious how the FAQ handles the actual intent.

Sweet best of luck to you, and could see -1 damage being annoying to deal with as you don't have a plethora of high multi damage weapons.

My quotes at the end were based on the fact that I did not face an admech or druhkari list. And yes they feel smooth and reliable. I didn’t feel the need to have psychic buffs off to compete. Now please don’t take this the wrong way but if you are not familiar with grey knights let me enlighten you. Beginning of 8th they were absolutely trash and unplayable, but I stuck with them because i like the more and the army. Mid to end of 8th they got the PA buff which helped but they were no where near what the other armies were. Beginning of 9th back in the toilet with one of the oldest codex in the game they received some love. I don’t call for nerds of any book I play what I play and adapt to the field of view. If you don’t know anything about them how do you know what they were or currently are. I have played this army since they were made there debut and still have the original daemon hunter codex. Did you take this into account that maybe I really know how to play them because I focus on them. My points were to show that characters are not need to do well, in 8th YOU HAD to have them. Now not so much. Our infantry is good along with certain other units. Now I don’t know what you play but if you have not received a codex yet would you be saying what you have said above? I doubt it. But thanks for the comment. Haha like I said I am not familiar with them enough to have an opinion we have 1 guy in our group who has just started them. As I said your conclusion just made me chuckle a bit was all because it would not have been my conclusion had it been me with one of my codexes getting a performance like that. (main reason I checked the thread because was curious what people were thinking of them). As for my armies needing a nerf, I for my part have Scions, DE, Admech, Deathwatch, and Harlequins.... my DE and admech have been shelved because they are stupid right now, so I do put my money where my mouth is so to speak. As you say you didn't play vs Admech or DE, but I'm not sure they are a good indication of balance right now as they are whackadoodle. I will for now make the assumption that the quality of players and armies you were up against were exaggerated, and be curious to see how the codex does, as it looks like I will be playing against them more often now.

Not a statement on the power of GK codex from me here not familiar enough with it to have an opinion, so don't read into this, I just found your ending conclusion a bit amusing. You near maxed points in every game at an RTT you say was full of good lists and players, and in 2 of the 3 games they weren't even close, and your end write up was, good not OP or broken. This just made me laugh. If that was my results at an RTT that had good lists and players, I think my reaction to my codex would have been, we are REALLY good, maybe need a light nerf but more games are needed to see where we fall exactly. Anyways carry on just found it a funny end write up for how you pumped your opponents up.

Seems cost prohibitive imho especially running 10 as you suggested that 300 points tied up in them, I feel DW can do better with 300 points, than lots of short range s3. Honestly I think the combi-flamer set up thats been mentioned a few times is a better option for this, as you get your SIA shots and its s4, averages slightly better vs meq, a bit worse vs geq but would still likely wipe or massively cripple a squad, and 50 points cheaper, and even then I am not really sold on a 10 man combi squad although I think they are better cost to damage ratio. I could MAYBE see a 5 man squad of either, as thats at least only 150 points for the hand flamers or 125 for the combiflamers, but even then I think i would lean the combis. Being able to get 2 extra SIA shots and s4 @5ppm cheaper makes up for losing half the number of shots on the flamer part. Just don't see you ever getting your points investment back on a 10 man squad of either, the 5 man squad at least I can see them killing enough to possibly get the 125 points for the combi's often enough, the 150.... thats a slightly tougher sell, you need almost optimal targets for it.

I don't think frags are popular now either, honestly they were much better in 8th, losing auto hit and going from 2d6 to 2d3 is a pretty heavy nerf, ya their cost went down but even their slug is worse as it used to be s9 at closer ranges making it a usable AV weapon, as opposed to basically an AC. Even overcosted in 8th I would still run a frag sometimes just because they would do some crazy things for you sometimes. Infernus would be the current hotness if you were wanting a heavy weapon, as heavy bolters are good, and for 5 points more why not get a hvy flamer strapped to it? Infernus used to be kinda bad, so those aren't things people have many of, but then I wouldn't run many either, 2-4 is about the most I would expect any DW army to ever run. I wouldn't touch the frag cannon at the moment, and I have 4 modeled. Currently the best options on old school marines are boltgun/SS Combiflamer/SS an infernus, or boltgun chainsword to keep them cheap and they sort of become better barebones intercessors, assuming you aren't loading the squad for some combat, in which case buying a black shield and/or sgt some combat gear would be good.

Eh while I don't think DW are strong, I also don't think they are weak just by virtue of being marines. I have had pretty positive success with them personally, though admittedly I haven't been playing any high level tournament armies with them. I have beat what I would expect to beat, nids, tau, chaos, but I have also convincingly taken out some armies that aren't considered bad, ravenwing, DA, DG, Salamanders, and demons. I have had success with kill teams, but I build them very much to survive and punch, while being able to take make some ok shooting. They are not an easy army to use, and most people prefer marines that are point click, DW aren't that. If you are going to build DW like normal marine armies to play them then you really are just playing inferior marines, because there is very little deathwatch can do better than another chapter using normal stuff. While killteams might not be amazing, you can at least build to a distinct playstyle, as opposed to just playing worse SM codex. While I agree it would be nice to have SIA more prolific in DW, I also don't want it on everything, I don't want the entire DW gameplan to be SB/SS, like people gravitated towards before. I do agree DW need a super doctrine bonus round, picking your round is nice, so it doesn't need to be massive, but we should probably have some sort of bonus to tactical, like our chosen target battle field roll units get to reroll hits of 1. Some of our secondary choices are ok some are bad, par for the course in codexes, we at least also can choose the normal marine ones too. I think this is all going to be just wishlisting though, I don't see GW really doing anything for us til 10th, or a surprise inclusion in a campaign book. They are so far behind with just codex releases DW won't be addressed, and with our units being in the marine codex, I wouldn't expect anything out of a chapter approved type book either. I'm sure it isn't what you want to hear, but its almost certainly how it is. You can win with DW, I don't have any matchups I look at and say I can't beat that. Now high level competitive could be another story, but most of us don't deal with that on a regular basis. I am pretty sure I could go to a tourney and break even at least though with how they have been feeling in my matches.

So with the new codex, several changes, and some units rise in viability I have started thinking that a DE list that has lots of options to throw out mortal wounds might be quite nice. Especially with some of the current better armies being vulnerable to them like, BA, DA, DG, and Custodes. I am running it as a triple patrol and will provide more information on how I see it working below. Patrol 1 Obsidian Rose, can be your choice, I just like Obsidian for lances, and trueborn. HQ - Master Archon with Djin blade and Ancient Evil Warlord Trait 70 Troop - Trueborn - Sybarite with Phantasm 6 with Rifles 2 with blasters 1 with Dark Lance 140 Heavy - Ravager 3x lances and Phantasm 145 Ravager 3x lances and Phantasm 145 Transports - Raider with lance, phantasm, and Splinter Racks (for trueborn) 100 Raider with lance, phantasm, chain snares, and shock prow 100 Patrol 2 Cursed Blade wych cult HQ - Master Succubi Tryptych + whatever free WT - Precision Strikes Drugs +1a 75 Troops- Wyches - Hekatrix - Phantasm 4 Wyches 55 Wyches - Hekatrix - Phantasm 4 Wyches 55 Fast Attack - Hellions - Helliarch - Phantasm 9 Hellions 175 Reavers - Arena Champ 3 Reavers with Heatlances 6 Reavers 3 Grav Talons 245 Patrol 3 Dark Creed for the LD HQ - haem - 80 Optional warlord trait to remove ob sec and deny actions HQ - Drazhar - 135 Optional warlord trait for full rerolls Troop - Wracks - Acothyst with Liquefier 4 Wracks 50 Elite - Incubi - Klaivex + 9 Incubi 160 Transports - Venom - 1 cannon 1 twin splinter Chain snares, Grisly Trophies 85 Venom - 1 cannon 1 twin splinter Chain snares, Grisly Trophies 85 Venom - 1 cannon 1 twin splinter Chain snares, Grisly Trophies 85 Explanation: So the idea of this is as stated is to try to cause a large number of mortal wounds, bringing 8 Phantasms, 3 Grav Talons, two sources of eviscerating fly by, Tryptych whip + precision strikes, shock prow strat, and occasional combat attacks bouncing off the wyches or succubi. The list itsself doesn't sacrifice much to do that either, with really only the dark creed and the venoms being the only culprits of list twisting. The venoms are nice little 3" bubbles of -3 LD and -1 attrition tests (if that ever matters), and -1 LD -1 attrition at 6" Why thats relevant is the phantasms now being, d3 shots and each hit causing you to roll 2d6, beating their LD causes a mortal wound. So potentially if you are shooting at spacemarines that are all suffering from that LD penalty you would have 16 average shots hitting on 3s or better that on hit have to roll a 6 or better to do a mortal wound. Bonus here is it works on vehicles. titanic, you name it. Against LD 8 and assuming all target a -3 ld unit this averages 7 mortals with a high chance for an 8th Vs LD 7 8 with VERY high chance for a 9th and Vs worst case LD 10 4 mortal wounds with a coin flip for a 5th. Obviously vs any army that actually has to take LD tests this is also scary, but thats not the main goal here, just a nice bonus. The LD's other nice side effect is improving tormentors on Draz and in the incubi giving them a good chance to force the opponent to fight last, which we pick up a 3rd option of with the archon. All of the venoms and the incubi/draz's raider have chain snares (shock prow too for more mortal wounds) so a good amount of attacks coming out on those for combat. The hellions and Reavers offer good unit to use Eviscerating fly by, + the new strat that improves their statistics if you want it. Reavers rocking 3 heat lances make them a reasonable choice for +1 bs drug, for the Hellions most of the time probably the +1a drug but optional List as a whole still brings solid fire power with 9 lances 2 blasters 3 heat lances 3 splinter cannons, and competent melee with the reavers, hellions, incubi, drazhar, archon, succubi and wyches. General play style would be sorta typical of what I think DE are going to gravitate to now, which is hanging back not contesting more than an objective or 2 til your advance and charge rules kick in. Just focusing on positioning FOR turn 2, while letting the long range fire power do its job of focusing down important targets. Probably using the move after shooting strat on the reavers to let them use their heat lances safely, assuming a good combat or fly by target for them isn't available turn 1. Risks would be throwing away your -LD venoms too quick so have to play smart with those, though the list should still function if they do go down, just not as well. General squishiness of DE is also a risk As this isn't an MSU venom spam set up your limited pool of ob sec will have to be carefully utilized, at moments that maximize their benefit. In any case there are multiple list and build options available to us now, but this is just an idea I was kicking around since its a play style that was previously not really available to us, and curious what people's thought about such a style might be. Thanks.

The big selling point of the Realspace Raid force is that it boosts your Archon so that he buffs all the sub-factions in your army, not just the Kabalites IIRC. Depending on how you build you army, this could be a big boost. Kinda the other benefit is specific to black heart kabal, if you really like blackheart's stuff then you want to run a realspace raid, otherwise you are losing 1/3 of their obsession. They only give the mercenary units +1pfp if they are in a realspace raid with them. Which ironically is one of the issues against realspace raid, since its near impossible to make a functional brigade, and realspace raid feels your 3 hq slots with mandatory haem/urian succubus/lelith and an archon who must be the warlord. That means you must bring a patrol if you want drazhar, and why wouldn't you dude is amazing now especially if you are running incubi, and one of the biggest selling points of black heart kabal is getting incubi +1pfp. It also means Draz can't benefit from the +1pfp. Personally I think realspace raid is very blah unless you are completely enamored with black heart +reroll 1s to wound for ALL core instead of black heart and mercenary units. Because if you aren't then all you are getting is one model with a 6" reroll 1s to hit aura that affects all core... i mean reroll 1s is nice but dark eldar are NOT the type of army of deathball up so the actual use of that is dubious unless you have a couple units you just really want to give reroll hits of 1 to that normally couldnt' get it. I don't currently see a good build around for that personally though. It certainly seems some people are very enamored with black heart, and they are a reasonable choice to me, but if you aren't interested in blackhaert + mercs or realspace as a whole then blackheart seems very meh to me. They are fine certainly shenanigans to be had that would be effective vs certain armies of things like venoms moving + advance turn 1 putting the tons of your opponents army in combat early, but if you opponents units are combat oriented thats not an effective tactic, and a lot of armies currently good have pretty good combat units, that are seeing use. My feeling is that obsidian rose is the best kabal currently as we have lots of units with a small number of high damage shots. Poisontongue is the obvious choice if you got a lot of venoms and/or really like to field a lot of kabalites for spamming splinter weapons.

Eh I think heat lances are fine borderline good on reavers, you have to wait til turn 2 to advance and charge with them anyways now since red grief isn't a thing, which used to be the go to for them. 18" movement is generally good enough, to reach most things on the now much smaller table with how people tend to cluster towards the middle due to primaries, and its not like you lose the ability to advance and charge if you need it, reavers already coudln't shoot their rifles if you advanced, sure I could have a 1-3 blasters instead of 1-3 heat lances, but hitting on 4s with blasters before a charge has never really been a wow factor of reavers to me in the first place. Now a minimum 3 damage though with up to 8 from 18"... that piques my interest, 36" threat range and they can probably still charge into something else... if not can just use the move after shooting strat to hide til next turn for fly by + charge and shots. Admittedly the only thing i think heat lances are reasonable on is reavers... but they are certainly one of the biggest winners from the changes, since they went from s6 weapons to s8 and d6+2. 3 damage is a pretty big break point currently between terms gravis, and death guard, and a 5.5 avg damage on a wound is solid. I do not really understand why shredders lost reroll to wound either, they weren't largely taken in the first place, and bumping them from 12" range to 18" range while nice I'm not sure required losing reroll wounds to be balanced. But it is what it is, if horde becomes more popular I guess they will find some use. The wyche weapon thing is odd, to me, but the issue of having not being able to bring more than 1 of each til 20 bothers me less than not being able to run a weapon other than the hekatrix until you run a 10 man squad, that seems like a pointless change to nerf 5 man wych squads, I suppose its trying to prevent venom spam but, seems a round about way to do that.

Oof some straight up wrong things being talked about on here. Just to correct a few things.... Talos = 5 attacks 6 if you bring 2 scalpels, and chain flails do not reroll wounds, and no clue where you are getting they can achieve poison 2+ on those or chain flails either Prophets of flesh = do nothing for the invlun, the only thing that improves the invuln is haemoxytes, its part of why coven seems meh to me atm, Prophets instead give you pseudo transhuman that you lose once you get hit by s8 or higher.... so in practice its can't be wounded on 3s until s8, not very impressive honestly, and their multiwound non vehicle models regenerate a wound at the start of your command phase. Honestly I think the custom covens are better than the normal... unless you are going for mortal wound shenanigans with phantasm grenade launcher, in which case creed is the best. Opinion wise, of the upgraded troops only the trueborn to me strike me as a must take. Bloodbrides are nice, but don't hit me with the gotta have it feeling. Haemoxytes only look reasonable to me turn 4 and on, so if you have a plan to keep them safe until late game then they are ok, otherwise feels like a pass. Biggest winners are by far succubi, heat lances, trueborn, Incubi, Drazhar, and Hellions, honorable mention to reavers medusae, liquifiers, and dark lances. Losers category consists of Scourges, and for the most part, coven, some wins here and some serious shenanigans you can do depending on coven, but unit wise even things that gained something lost out in a more important way.