Zuvassin

No, because the point is that through the first editions of 40k, GW wasn’t beholden to printed lore. They commonly changed, edited, dropped, and added details to suit whatever then-current tastes or needs dictated. When 3rd edition launched, Andy Chambers even openly discussed that the infamously minimal lore of the rulebook and (early) 3rd edition codexes was intentional as they felt 40k did better with more mystery as well as with less confusion over conflicting lore bits in the stories. King’s story is important, but in its day, it was just part of the churn of White Dwarf lore at the time. What made it important is more retroactive - in time as people began trying to scrape together a coherent and expanded narrative for what increasingly became the foundational story of 40k rather than the random bit of background it still was (and remained) when Assault on Holy Terra was written. I don’t think modern gamers appreciate that Chaos and Chaos Marines have always been popular in 40k, but it wasn’t until the 2nd Ed Codex Chaos introduced Abaddon as the faction’s big bad that the Horus Heresy became more central to 40k as the Imperium vs Chaos in a revenge war over unsettled business displaced Ghazghkull Thraka and the perfidious Eldar as the primary enemy tropes of 40k.

If I may (and I'll preface this by explicitly stating I'm just one person, with zero greater authority than personal experience): I helped co-write the original Index Astartes article for the Word Bearers. The WB had been my primary army in 40k Second Edition, and back then, before social media groups and even fancy forums like this became the dominant areas for the hobby, a bunch of us hung out on (email) mailing lists - the greatest one being IGCOM. It was there that a bunch of us got to know the then-WD editor, Paul Sawyer, and some of us eventually got asked to help with writing the Index Astartes articles for the original 18 legions. At the time, the lore was pretty much what had come out in the Realm of Chaos books and the materials supporting Adeptus Titanicus, as well as some additions and retellings in what became Epic as well as the 2nd edition Codex Chaos and then expanded a bit too in the Horus Heresy boardgame (the original, IIRC they re-released an updated version about ten years ago or so). Point being, there was a lot of open space to figure things out. For example: in Rogue Trader (ie 40k First Edition), the Word Bearers were just a generic Khornate Traitor Legion (IIRC, alongside the Night Lords, really only showing up in a few color pages of Khorne Marine heraldry with the World Eaters taking center stage). The 2nd edition Codex Chaos had about the only real information on them, a relatively brief blurb about how Larger and the Word Bearers were rebuked by the Emperor for taking too long to build monuments and churches to him instead of pushing forward with conquest. So, in that sense, the seeds of Monarchia were there, just not explicitly named or spelled out. Another thing not super explicit was exactly who all was where during the Heresy. Beyond the main duel of Emperor, Sanguinius, and Horus (IE Blood Angels and Sons of Horus), the only other real indicators of who had been at the Siege of Terra (which IIRC was basically one of three main plot points of the Heresy at the time, alongside the Istvaan massacres and the "flight of the Eisenstein") were the Horus Heresy boardgame and a few of the legion blurbs in that 2nd edition Chaos-dex. So it was vaguely known that the Blood Angels, White Scars, and Space Wolves were present for the loyalists, as well as that the Emperor's Children and World Eaters were present but respectively not well organized by this point in the war (IE that the Emperor's Children would turn from the actual war to rampage against civilians across Terra). I had noticed that a lot of the people doing these IA articles were really trying to shoehorn their legion into the Siege. I had also noticed that the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos sorta implied, without really overtly stating, that Larger had actually fallen first. It didn't explicitly tie the two together, as I recall, it was more that you could read between the lines of "after the Emperor's rebuke, Lorgar's eyes were opened that the Emperor was not a real god and he thus went searching" and "by the time Horus turned, Larger and the Word Bearers had already blah blah blah". I saw a chance to make my beloved legion the actual first to fall, even before the most famous traitor primarch who the whole dang Heresy is named after. But I figured I'd have to be willing to sacrifice something to get that, and the obvious seemed to be to be one of the few people not pushing to make them the previously unknown star of the Siege or otherwise force them to be fitted into it. At the time, one of my best gaming friends was also involved - he'd been asked to write the Ultramarines IA. I asked if he'd be cool with it, then proposed that the WB and UM would be written to miss the siege due to the WB launching a surprise assault to pin the Ultramarines in the eastern end of the galaxy. This was approved, and I went to work coming up with details. I noticed in the 2nd ed Codex Ultramarines that Calth was mentioned as a dead world that had previously been something of a wealthy/luxury type world until its star started poisoning it. The blurb mentions nothing about the Heresy, I don't even recall if it explicitly mentions or even implies what exactly caused the star to kill the planet, but I saw the potential of a neat bit of lore to connect my favorite legion with my friend's favorite legion: Calth had been an important Ultramarine world and thus the target of a massive Word Bearer attack that would ultimately destroy it and pin the Ultras away from the Siege. Now, that initial idea had nothing of what got fleshed out in the novels about the underground war, the special Word Bearer ships, or the ruinstorm that served to be the thing that actually pinned the 13th in place for much of the Siege. I didn't even get to finish the IA as being in grad school my real life priorities took over. Anyways, nostalgia trip aside, I wanted to bring all that up because it really wasn't until the novels and subsequent FW game were started that the Heresy lore really was pushed into a formal "this is how it happened" shape. I think people nowadays maybe dismiss or don't believe or simply don't quite comprehend how off the cuff GW used to be with its lore. I think they're seen now - probably rightfully so - as this large corporation that likely has a super formal process to how background material gets created and vetted and sorted out, but that wasn't always the case. There used to be an interview with one of the early 40k people, perhaps even Rick Priestley himself, where the person mentions that the original lore was very explicit that power armour was Marine only. But that some "Marines" got sculpted that Rick felt were too outside the concept to be used as Marines, but he didn't have the resources to bin them or force a resculpt - 40k initially had little time and slots allotted to it. So he had to basically retro-invent the Inquisition and add the whole black carapace lore that technically anyone can use power armour, it's just only Marines who can make full use of it due to that implant. And that's really how it went. It's been said that the Horus Heresy was essentially the result of them needing a civil war story to explain why Adeptus Titanicus only had the exact same titans for both sides, but what gets overlooked is that the original story is essentially a rip-off of the 2000AD comic Rogue Trooper, which involves a sci-fi future war that's basically a retelling of the American Civil War and involves a plot where the "Traitor General" betrays the main character and his unit in a "dropside massacre". Similarly, you can see a lot of elements from other 2000AD comics worked into 40k, from "Kaos" worshipping robots (ABC Warriors), the hive-cities and weaponized judges of Judge Dredd, and Nemesis the Warlock, a comic about a psychic alien being hunted by a xenophobic human Imperium centered on Earth (called Termite), ruled by a Grand Inquisitor and his "Terminators". The up-pointing arrow that Marine Tactical Squads use as their marker is actually a re-use of what in Nemesis the Warlock is a stylized atomic mushroom cloud image used to warn people of highly-irradiated places. 40k lore was often very "seat of their pants" in terms of how GW came up with things. That includes the Heresy - they'd make stuff up, let random people like us help make stuff up, and when they realized that the gaming community as a whole were latching on to some of these things, they'd double down on them as basically fan-service. Hell, even as relatively late as the early 2000s, when they released the Inquisitor 54mm role-playing game, there's a supplement that covers a story in which someone's trying to locate a being who's heavily implied to either be Sanguinius himself or the son of Sanguinius. Heresy-wise, it's really only been with the shotgunning of random names, events, and such that came about when they made the Horus Heresy card game and associated "Visions" art-books, and then basically codified them with the Black Library novels, that any of this lore was suddenly fleshed out in a formal and competent way. And even then, GW still has an out - the first or second book of the Dawn of Fire series for 40k has an in-universe reference to the Horus Heresy novels as "romances" of the Heresy that are popular pulp tales within the Imperium. So even now, you could always claim the Horus Heresy narrative we currently have is just the distorted fiction known to the citizens of the 41st millennium, lol.

Has anyone tried running a WB armored spearhead? I know tanks and tank squadrons aren't in a good place, so to speak, and Word Bearers aren't super well-known for being tank-heads anyways. Having said that, Word Bearers were my 2nd ed 40k army, so I have a nostalgia factor, and at the same time I'm not really interested in running the "intended" WB army of daemons and possessed (no offense, just don't really care for any of the models so far). As such, I'm aware it'll be an underpowered list, but is there anything useful with the basic Word Bearers special rules that would impact a tank-heavy list?

Depends on what the "point" of an army is to GW: Non-Marine allies for Imperial armies Thematic opponent force to pair with Genestealer Cults and Traitor Guard / Cultist themed Chaos armies more short-ranged/CC themed carapace army than Scions are as I suggested above - it would also allow GW to sell Necromunda kits to 40k gamers (if the army incorporated some of the gang kits as Imperial Cultists, auxiliary law squads, etc)

Outside Kill Team, it seems logical - and fairly straightforward - to implement the Arbites into Necromunda. We just saw the announcement of an Ogryn-sized automaton for them by Forgeworld. I bring up Necromunda because, if GW does fully integrate an Arbites "gang" into Necromunda, that opens the door for more plastic kits. Currently, beyond the basic ganger kit, a lot of Necromunda gangs have 3 additional plastic kits: a small vehicle kit for the Ash Wastes setting an upgrade sprue of additional weapons a set of gang-specific characters, such as Orlock Wreckers or Delaque wraiths, usually featuring 2-3 options with 2-4 models per option (e.g. the Orlock kit having 2x Arms Masters, 4x Wreckers, and a pair of doggos) GW seems to have a rule that any unit in a 40k codex must be plastic. Anything only available as a FW kit or a hybrid FW/GW kit doesn't go into the main codex army list, and only shows up as a supplemental data sheet (e.g. like they do for FW 30k tanks). Beyond that, for making a standalone 40k army, it'd really depend on the context. They're probably fine "as is" if the intent is to simply make them available as an allied or add-on unit for Imperial armies like Sisters, Guard, etc to take. Or even as one of a hodge-podge of entries in some sort of Inquisition or similar mini-codex. For something akin to a fuller army, or a semi-full army, the potential gaps would be: transport vehicle (would almost certainly be filled by standard Taurox, Chimera or Rhino options - it seems doubtful GW would commit to an Arbites-specific plastic vehicle kit, and as stated, this has to be a fully plastic kit to make it into a 40k codex) tank or similar combat vehicle (again, would almost certainly be a standard existing 40k kit being repurposed into an Arbites list) flyer (ditto) additional units - GW would either have to commit to further plastic kits to cover things you typically see in other armies - Terminator-like "heavy" troops, jump pack troops, biker troops, psykers, etc - or they'd have to find a way to basically work in some existing plastics to help with things. I'm no rumormonger or far-seer, so this is pure speculation, but here's some potential options if they truly wanted to do an Arbites army for 40k, but with me trying to keep it realistic in terms of new kit commitments by GW alongside the aforementioned "rule" GW seems to have about not allowing FW kits to be mainline entries in a 40k army: HQ: Commander figure (basically a stand-alone Judge using the basic kit, with encouragement to kit bash to make them more visually unique - could be supplemented by a Hired Gun type persona from an Arbites Necromunda range by FW for gamers that want a more unique or standout looking model to field) Inquisitor (makes sense to use the existing model range as they thematically fit) Psyker (probably either another stand-alone model using the basic kit, or one of the options for the Necromunda Arbites gang-specific characters, and either way supplemented by a resin Hired Gun model from FW for gamers wanting a fancier model) ELITES: Exaction Squads: in addition to the two "pure" squads of Vigilants and Subductors, I could see the Kill Team style squad used in 40k as an elite option, similar to the unique Deathwatch squad kit that got 40k rules to supplement the main 40k Deathwatch kits Support Characters, Part 1: this is where that plastic ganger-specific kit that Necromunda gangs get comes in handy - I could see something like a psyker judge or a sniper judge being fairly obvious options here, another idea might be something like a Judge-type that calls down orbital strikes from the Arbites fleet Support Characters, Part 2: obviously, some of the Kill Team roles could also be broken out into minor 40k character entries, like the dog handler and such TROOPS: Vigilant and Subductor Squads as the two base Arbite squads Palanite Enforcers / Palatine Subjugators: in terms of lore, the local planet law enforcement could be allies or enemies depending on their corruption and loyalties, but for 40k purposes, the Palatine Enforcer squad from Necromunda could be added as a somewhat less-elite squad - only downside is their armament options are not too different from what the Arbites have, but it'd be an option Navy Breachers: this may seem a bit random, but they'd be a bit more distinct from the Arbites than the Palanite squads, and lore-wise they could either represent the forces of the Arbites' own ships or gang-pressed Naval marines requisitioned by the Arbites to take on a corrupt planetary PDF or governor's personal forces Outcast Hive Scum / Cawdor: if you wanted something more akin to a "horde" option to help the semi-elite Arbites squads, you could have a generic unit like "Imperial Cultists" representing loyalist fanatics that side with the Arbites when they arrive to take on the corrupt local leaders FAST ATTACK: Judge Bikers: this would require that GW proper releases a bike kit similar to what they've been doing for Necromunda Ash Wastes, like the Orlock Quads or the bikes for Esher and Goliath - would also allow for biker versions of any Arbites HQ characters as well HEAVY SUPPORT: Taurox/Taurox Prime: the Taurox kit would theoretically work well here because it gives the Arbites both a combat vehicle option (Taurox Prime) and a straightforward transport option (Taurox), it isn't recycling the more iconic Rhino or Chimera kits outside of their standard armies, and I'd argue the visual look of the Taurox fits the Arbites look MISCELLANEOUS: Sanctioner Automata could be added via an Index type data sheet similar to the book they did for adding FW-only kits or 30k tanks into 40k any named/special character personas for Necromunda could be added in a similar manner, either as named characters or as generic equivalents Valkyries would be a tempting addition, giving them a flyer, but double-dipping both it and the Taurox from the Scions would probably be a bit too much (it's a shame that GW doesn't have a plastic kit for the Aquila Lander or Argus Lighter kits, either of which would have been perfect for an Arbites 40k list Again, all speculation and I'm sure plenty of people reading this will hate it. But 2-3 characters, 2-4 Arbites squads, both Taurox variants, and some repurposed Kill Team and/or Necromunda kits for some less elite infantry and you'd have a solid small army list. And the only new kits needed would be an Arbites characters kit and bike kit, both of which would fit the standard support for Necromunda gangs (and Arbites seem like a natural addition to Necromunda anyways). Throw in some data sheets for a few FW kits, and maybe allow some easy to ally options for some supplemental Scions, Guard squads, or Sisters of Battle, and you'd have a playable (but admittedly not too powerful) core for a 40k army.

The Night Lords' homeworld of Nostramo is also based on the prison colony "Nostromo", which is also from Joseph Conrad (the author of 'Heart of Darkness', which the film Apocalypse Now is based on and where Konrad Curze and M'Shen get their names from, directly and indirectly). Rick Priestley has degrees and training in archaeology and ancient Roman history. His original career path was to become an archaeologist with a focus on Roman sites in Britain. IIRC, he's stated in interviews that after a couple months of his first real archaeology job - which was basically crawling and sitting and kneeling in the dirt and mud uncovering objects carefully by the inchful of dirt - he decided to pursue his other passion, which was wargaming, lol. There's also a "King Gilloman" from some Merlin/King Arthur legends and tales, I think in particular ones regarding Stonehenge.

If they're going to significantly change the rules in any direction, it should be to replace them with Rogue Trader or 2nd ed 40k. Not only would that thematically fit the 'retro' style of HH, but it would encourage smaller games once people realize how every CC in the early days was individual combat.

Back to the original question: It feels like (to me) that Russ and/or the Lion have been the two most-hinted to return (on the Loyalist side). The Lion I think adds a bit more, given his return would immediately complicate things given the whole nature of the Fallen and how it's been hinted that, tired jokes aside, they may or may not be loyalists, misunderstood, or at least otherwise redeemable. It'd be a great and complicated angle, but I also don't know that GW wants to open that can of worms, so to speak. Russ would also be interesting, given the fate of the 13th company as well as reviving / revisiting his relationship to Magnus. Besides them, Vulkan also seems one of the more plausible returns on the Loyalist side. The only real issue might be that I'm not sure his personality is easily distinguished from Guilliman's. Yes, they are quite different, with Roboute being somewhat more pragmatic in his idealism (if that makes sense) compared to Vulkan's, but in the grander scheme of things, I think Vulkan of all options presents the biggest risk of feeling like a twin of Guilliman rather than a true foil or counterweight. IMO they'd almost have to push Guilliman as an overreachingly ambitious Warmaster 2.0 being counteracted by an overly pious and loyal-to-the-Emperor Vulkan for it to feel like anything more than parallels of each other (IMHO, of course). As much as I like the Khan in 30k, I'm not sure what would make him a compelling return to 40k. I'm sorta indifferent to Corax or Dorn, tbh. There's also the possibility of using one of the loyalist primarchs to 'run' the Nihilus part of the Imperium. It'd let GW further explore that half of the galaxy, plus more 'indirectly' set up a rivalry between the two primarchs without forcing a confrontation or turning things into a three-way standoff between Guilliman, Abaddon, and the second Loyalist. Having said all that, to me it really does seem like Russ and Lion would be the safest bets. They add to two full codexes rather than to two supplements the way a Dorn or Khan would, would also possibly let those books gain access to some new unique units, like bodyguards or resurrected 30k units, and I think have more compelling additions to the 40k background - Russ as the 'fiercely independent barbarian' to Guilliman's 'civilized statesman' plus antagonist to Magnus, and Lion could even play the part of Nihilus commander, adding further intrigue to Guilliman's side (ie they start hearing rumours that the Fallen are in league with Lion in reestablishing order, but does that mean the Fallen were the good guys or that Lion and the DA have truly gone all in with their fallen brethren?) So I'd vote for Russ and Lion joining Guilliman as the likeliest scenario, albeit probably not in a true triumvirate (or more likely Guilliman officially announces them as such but the other two show almost no interest in actually functioning as such). PERSONALLY...I'd rather see some true shenanigans in the form of Alpharius returning (or the rumours of someone in that identity showing up) and taking control of the Nihilus side. I think it'd be a fun campaign/storyline arc to have Guilliman hearing rumours that not only has Alpharius returned (and returned to the living), but that him and his Alpha Legion are seemingly acting as loyalists in bringing order to the Nihilus region, with an entire arc of Guilliman desperately trying to either reach or contact the Nihilus side to figure out what's going on.

Right now my plan is to basically run the two I have as proxy Arvus Landers with armoured cockpits for my militia force.

That Legion Vendetta concept is amazing. Owning two Valkyrie kits (and not playing 40k), I'd love to find a way to use or proxy them into my Iron Warriors or militia forces.

Back to the lost Legions, there’s another Priestly interview somewhere where he more explicitly stated his inspiration was the Roman practice of letting shamed Legions redeem themselves by earning the right to have all record of them wiped out, as Roman honor saw being forgotten as mercifully better than being remembered as failures. Which fits this interview’s comments, save their mystery has less to do with the overall mystery of the Heresy era and more to do with them being specific echoes of Roman practices.

The similarities to Rogue Trooper extend to the wholesale “borrowing” they did of 2000AD in general, including hive cities and judges (Arbites) from Judge Dredd, the worship of “Kaos” in the ABC Warriors, and the entire plot of Nemesis the Warlock, in which the Grand Inquisitor of Termite (short for “Mighty Terra”) sends his Terminators to hunt down an alien psyker. Not to mention the visual elements, such as the upward pointing arrow that’s used as the Space Marine tactical squad icon looking suspiciously like both the Souther icon from Rogue Trooper and the stylized mushroom cloud warning signs for radiation in several of those works, the often exact replica of the Nort icon as the generic lightning bolt heraldry and restylized as the White Scar icon, and that GW repurposed several of their Rogue Trooper minis into the first ranges of the totally coincidentally named Rogue Trader. The Paradise Lost parallels are less specific and more the fact that almost every good vs evil and betrayal story told by westerners relies on the same biblical themes that Milton relied on.

1. The “Create Your Own Legion/Chapter” confusion is likely due to GW originally calling them Chapters - the whole Legion terminology is technically a retcon. 2. I recall part of the push behind 3rd edition was to “reset” the lore as they felt 2nd edition had fleshed it out too much. So that seems like a popular line of thinking in GW. 3. “Mystery” also allows room for invention. Priestly has said elsewhere that the Inquisition was invented to explain away the non-Marine power armoured models he was forced to release (because he didn’t have the time/resources to have them resculpted but they were too divergent to use as Marines). When you spell everything out, you remove the blank spots to fit unplanned improvements. 4. Lots of keyboard warriors acting like they know more/better than the inventor of the game. 5. Disappointed no one’s pointed out yet that there’s zero mention of how the HH setting is essentially a retelling of the Traitor General plot from Rogue Trooper while 40k proper is a reworking of his previous Laserburn game.

Totally out of left field, but I've personally been hoping the King in Yellow is Dorn. Not because of the yellow reference, per say, but if they're going to bring Dorn back for 40k (which I feel is going to happen), turning him into a quasi mystical / mysterious force trying to resurrect the Emperor (the graels) as penitence for "failing" the Emperor would be a sweet way of doing that.