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Who thinks Lucius was the most BA good guy before he turned?


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#1
Fuhror Templar

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I just wanted to start this little fan topic for pre heresy Lucius. Ever since he was first introduced against the megarachnids, he was just the most coolest person i have seen. seeks perfection in everything he does and is a !@#$ to anyone who tries to deny him his perfection. my hero ;) Ive even started tried doing a pre heresy lucius using the commander and company champion bits and would just love to discuss how awesome he is.

PS. why does he get his ass kicked by every main character when he is clearly their superior in combat. it dont make no sense for a writer to just make their characters better because they are the main guys

#2
Vertebrae

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His arrogance is his down fall. He underestimates his opponents then cries when he loses. IMO Khârn really showed me a side of WE that I didn't know existed.

#3
Biggsthemedic

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If had just killed them like he could very easily do he would have them all beaten, but he plays with people. Then they manage to come up with some plan and whip him up.

#4
Askari

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Thing is lucius wasn't better than them, he just thought he was. When he kept getting his face punched in by the good marines that actually were better than him he got mad and turned to slaanesh for the chance to get the power and position he didn't deserve. Lucius really sucks, he's a brown nose and is the first to suck up to the most incompetent officers just to stay in good standing.
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#5
Fuhror Templar

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I think he really was better then everyone he faces, and everyone he faces knows it. Tarvitz knew it, yet he was able to not die until his squad came in a opened fire on him. He kicked that chaplains ass who was supposedly high up on the heresy command structure, and because he wasn't a main character, he just toyed with him and severed his head. I think he was as good as he thought but was just too...cocky? i guess, but that doesn't get your ass kicked by inferior combatants

#6
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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Lucius's flaws have already been mentioned in detail, so i wont bother repeating them. what i will say is this: i dont like lucius. he has all the traits of a spoiled child, with the body and skills of a murderous machine.

cockiness is a major downfall when estimating an opponent or yourself. it can let you make moves you normally wouldnt, and mistakes you should know better than to commit. while i personally prefer my enemies to be stupid, arrogance is just as dangerous a flaw for any serious combatant.

any history book will show when "superior" men or forces were defeated by "weaker" opponents because they walked in too arrogant, too sure of their victory.

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#7
Hobo Willie

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WLK hit the nail on the head. Give me Tarvitz any day.

#8
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Exactly, Tarvitz is the best example of how a efficient team player is better than a cocky kind of "hero". Btw, Lucius isn´t a better warrior, he´s a better swordsman, that´s all, that´s why both Tarvitz and Loken kick his ass, because they both have a general view of things, while Lucius view is restricted by his huge ego.

#9
Brother-chaplain Astador

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IMO Khârn really showed me a side of WE that I didn't know existed.


Whyd you say that?

As for Lucious I agree with most of whats been said here, I do think he was a pretty cool character from the POV of him being the Best swordsman in the Leigon - he effortlessly slew chaplain Charmosian? and a whole WHOST of Loyal, and disloyal EC with very little exersion.

But then he is the most WEASLEY of all space marines I have ever read about, or encountered, he had NO loyalty to anyone.

He had an absolutely huge ego and the mindstate of a child - it is a shame but such things were fostered- even encouraged by the Emperors Children.

#10
KingDeath

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Lucius was a rather annoying whiner.

#11
Tallthulu

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other people that were arrogant and got beaten coughhoruscough. foreshadowing maybe? i mean teh series starts off with "i was there the day horus slew the emperor."

whooooo, tingly! ;)

a wonderful character for what he is, pride driven to perversity. likely not hugged enough as a child, perhaps. but i thought he was a wonderful read, and an antagonist you love to hate. kind of like inquistior heldane.
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#12
Ensis Ferrae

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i did get a kick out of the Emo state he went into after the painter girl "showed" him how to cut himself... That'll solve problems ;)

as has been stated in many movies and other books: "there are more parts to a sword than its blade" and most of the "other" marines who whipped Lucius in any fight were prime examples of knowing that rule. as for a sense of foreshadowing, when does he get his little whip thing like in the tabletop game?

#13
Slainsoldier

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No. He wasnt the most BA good guy before he turned, Horus was. Lucius was a sellout, and Horus was sold out.

#14
BaalZebul

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In terms of characters from the novels, I much preferred Tarvitz to Lucius. Lucius was a just a extraordinary swordsman, while Tarvitz was actually a good officer capable of inspiring loyalty in his men. I also thought Iacton Qruze was pretty cool, the grizzled old veteran who represented the old, noble, selfless qualities inherent in the Astartes before the egos of the Primarchs came into play.

In terms of other characters, Ive always been a fan of Magnus the Red. While the other Chaos Primarchs ended up turning against the Emperor in one way of the other, but Magnus had the Emperor turn against him when he attempted to warn him of Horus' treachery by the only means he knew how. Magnus only turned to Chaos at the last moment to save himself and his legion from Russ and the Space Wolves.
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#15
Leethal

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Lucuis is a child.

But remember, Space Marines are created when you take really cocky little kids who know how to fight, survive, and kill.

Now, most of these Space Marines obviously mature, Lucius on the other hand.....heh. We'll leave it at that.

Now I'm guessing most of the "little" kids were killed right off during combat, or...they suffered a "bolt sized hemorrhage" from their Battle-Brothers.

#16
Imperialis_Dominatus

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Ever since he was first introduced against the megarachnids, he was just the most coolest person i have seen. seeks perfection in everything he does and is a !@#$ to anyone who tries to deny him his perfection. my hero :(


Well, if that's what you admire...

PS. why does he get his ass kicked by every main character when he is clearly their superior in combat. it dont make no sense for a writer to just make their characters better because they are the main guys


Just because you have superior skill doesn't mean you can't lose to someone with less. Luck, tiny mistakes, underestimation, and so on can bring down anyone. It applies to a lot of fields, especially that of the physical. Trust me, I know.

IMO Khârn really showed me a side of WE that I didn't know existed.


I recall feeling the same way, but don't remember what it was. Hell. *picks up Flight of the Eisenstein to re-read*

Thing is lucius wasn't better than them, he just thought he was. When he kept getting his face punched in by the good marines that actually were better than him he got mad and turned to slaanesh for the chance to get the power and position he didn't deserve. Lucius really sucks, he's a brown nose and is the first to suck up to the most incompetent officers just to stay in good standing.


Indeedy-doody. He disgusted me. Thing is, I know people who are like that. Their arrogance and sycopanthy is sickening... Ugh. *retches onto pulled-out copy of FotE* Ah crap. Lost my spot.

I think he was as good as he thought but was just too...cocky? i guess, but that doesn't get your ass kicked by inferior combatants


Uh... yeah it does. Pride is the fatal flaw that's been written about for millennia for a reason.

In terms of other characters, Ive always been a fan of Magnus the Red. While the other Chaos Primarchs ended up turning against the Emperor in one way of the other, but Magnus had the Emperor turn against him when he attempted to warn him of Horus' treachery by the only means he knew how. Magnus only turned to Chaos at the last moment to save himself and his legion from Russ and the Space Wolves.


Agreed. Magnus is a traitor I can feel sympathy for... er no I didn't mean it Inquisit... *whoosh of promethium*

Lucuis is a child.

But remember, Space Marines are created when you take really cocky little kids who know how to fight, survive, and kill.

Now, most of these Space Marines obviously mature, Lucius on the other hand.....heh. We'll leave it at that.

Now I'm guessing most of the "little" kids were killed right off during combat, or...they suffered a "bolt sized hemorrhage" from their Battle-Brothers.


True. Was actually thinking something along these lines myself, but you hit it on the head.

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#17
Fuhror Templar

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Well, I know that this topic has some serious <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> against Lucius, and I am okay with that, because there are some honestly good reasons as to why he is such an ignorant child.

But, in my opinion, I found that up until he took that earpiece and betrayed the crap out of his comrades (who I thought he was actually getting along with), I liked the fact that he was an <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>. I like it because it was different i guess. Because he was the only loyalist (until that point) introduced as a main character who wasn't a total soft heartie and wasn't all noble knight-like. Loken and Tarvitz, and any supporting character i can't remember, all acted with that quality, and while i found that the characters were likeable, I just found I liked Lucius. He reminds me of the tough brooklyn guy from Band of Brothers (or any other WWII movie), who suported the main dude with his giant being-an-<DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>.I guess thats why i liked him. until he got all emo and betrayed everyone. you guys are right there, what a

PS. I think the reason I was confounded by Lucius losing every fight hes in is because he lost against Loken when he was actually trying and not too cocky, and loken just sidestepped, batted him away and siad something like "youre a child who cant fight on the streets for real" and walked off. I thought that was a :cuss moment, because i just thought of Loken kind of being jerkish to him...and walking off after one hit is wierd.

Edited by Wildfire, 03 October 2008 - 06:21 AM.


#18
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#19
As7_k

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But, in my opinion, I found that up until he took that earpiece and betrayed the crap out of his comrades (who I thought he was actually getting along with), I liked the fact that he was an <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>. I like it because it was different i guess. Because he was the only loyalist (until that point) introduced as a main character who wasn't a total soft heartie and wasn't all noble knight-like. Loken and Tarvitz, and any supporting character i can't remember, all acted with that quality, and while i found that the characters were likeable, I just found I liked Lucius. He reminds me of the tough brooklyn guy from Band of Brothers (or any other WWII movie), who suported the main dude with his giant being-an-<DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>.I guess thats why i liked him. until he got all emo and betrayed everyone. you guys are right there, what a


To sum that up, like many people in the current culture you have a preference toward the anti-hero because you feel he is more real. You have to remeber that the whole of the Heresy is a classic morality play about the fall of Horus. Loken and Torgaddon fit into that narrative as classic tragic heroes doomed by the betrayal of those above them.

PS. I think the reason I was confounded by Lucius losing every fight hes in is because he lost against Loken when he was actually trying and not too cocky, and loken just sidestepped, batted him away and siad something like "youre a child who cant fight on the streets for real" and walked off. I thought that was a :cuss moment, because i just thought of Loken kind of being jerkish to him...and walking off after one hit is wierd.


Please forgive the lecture tone that may follow. Loken gave him multiple warnings that he would fight using means other then the sword, Lucius' obsession with sword play blinded his to anything other then the fight he wanted to have. Recall Tarvitz's comment about Lucius's form of courage admitting no reality. In this case the reality was that he had no idea (that was mentioned) about how to fight anyway but basic Astartes training and his own blade exclusive style. Combined with Lucius representing one facet of the Emperor's Children strive for perfection becoming a sense of superiority over everyone means that he could not but underestimate Loken.

Loken had also seen Lucius fight for several minutes prior to their match, while Lucius had no idea about Loken's style.

As for the walking away, Tarvitz lost earlier when Erebus knocked him down, why would that change? Loken even said sorry. Lucius wanted to learn how Luna Wolves fought and Loken showed him. Once he won there was no reason to stand around in the cage, so he left. What do you think should have happened?

#20
Pulse

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As7_k - Tis a fair comment matey not a lecture. Loken did indeed say to Lucius that the blade wasnt everything, and he did watch Lucius' style before entering the cage. Plus a knock down clearly did signify the end of the fight, so he had everyright to walk away. :D

#21
Dammeron

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Lucius is sadly one of the more poorly realised characters in the HH series. In all honestly, how would someone so myopic in his capabilities (it seems the only thing he is competent in is his sword play) even be recruited into the ranks of the Emperors Children, a legion whose philosophy is perfection in ALL things? Furthermore, how would someone so petulant, so petty be allowed to ascend to the rank of company captain, chapter master or whatever the hell rank he occupies without some SERIOUS censure?

IMO, he could have been made a much more interesting character if he was portrayed as sort of the flip side of Saul Tarvitz; essentially noble, but subtly insecure and obsessed with the notion of self improvement. Instead he comes off as a stock traitor-in-waiting. Even without his incusion as a chaos special character, it would be painfully obvious from the HH books that he is going to betray his comrades. The overall effect when he finally does so is therefore "Oh, well, there's the mother of all non-surprises."

A shame when you consider that in the same novel, you vget a surprisingly complex depiction of Khârn the (pre) Betrayer, who actually comes off as the voice of reason amongst the World Eaters.

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#22
flintlocklaser

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Dammeron makes several very good points; Lucius in the HH books is a cartoon. And as Dammeron said, it's made more disappointing when you see it didn't have to be that way: like he said, Khârn is surprisingly well-depicted, and the members of the Mournival who eventually fall to Chaos are made much more complex and believable. In particular, I thought they did a good job with "Little Horus" Aximand. He turns, and you are so disappointed, and so wish he hadn't turned - and then Lucius comes by twirling his eeeevil mustache like a third-rate Snidely Whiplash. He's a bad character, poorly portrayed. A waste of good raw material in my opinion, and certainly not the 'most bad-ass' of anyone or anything.

#23
Fuhror Templar

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To sum that up, like many people in the current culture you have a preference toward the anti-hero because you feel he is more real. You have to remeber that the whole of the Heresy is a classic morality play about the fall of Horus. Loken and Torgaddon fit into that narrative as classic tragic heroes doomed by the betrayal of those above them.


I beleive you have a good point there about how Loken and torgaddon fit the role of the hero classically. it does call up, when viewed that way, a sort of classic simple Chaucer-like story with archtypes put together in the same story to make the story, not the character. I see that now, and makes me apreciate Loken more now as the kind of one sided character he is.

@Dammeron and flintlocklaser
The reason I liked Lucius was because there was Lucius, who is presented as a one sided jerk ( ;) ) of all trades in battle in Horus Rising . In that book he comes off more fleshed out a little bit. I carried that impression over to the second book and continued to think that Lucius was a little fleshed out. But also in the second book, when you see everyone around them turn, I kind of thought there was some subtext or feeling like maybe Lucius was learning from Loken and Saul and when he battled alongside them I thought he wouldn't betray them as some sort of twist that he turns out good (that would be the anti-twist, which would have rocked). That why I thought he was the most BA guy, before he turned.

PS. I love the fact I get to throw in a literary referance. School DOES work.

Edited by Fuhror Templar, 07 October 2008 - 03:21 AM.


#24
Pacific81

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interezting post Fuhror, I agree with you.

Someone above wrote about Lucius being an 'ignorant child', and in many ways he does indeed come accross as a spoiled brat, but perhaps this was the intention?

One of the central tenets of the Heresy, and the reasons for the fall, was that although the bodies of these men are superhuman, their minds are not. Being in a position where you are stronger or faster than other people, I think it is far easier to fall into the trap of egotism or an expanded self worth. People who are humble and well balanced in this situation are far more rare, and in many ways are perhaps a peculiarity in terms of character compared to the established norm.

And if the Warmaster could fall into this way of thinking, then why not the common soldier?