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snipers


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20 replies to this topic

#1
ginger gobbo

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yo

could anyone tell me if snipers were used in the heresy

#2
Leethal

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By who?

The Imperial Army?
The Orks?
The Lelith?
The Leeran?
Pokemon?

Please be more specific with your question! :)

The only Legion I was ever aware of using Snipers were Space Wolves in Pre-Heresy Era.

#3
ginger gobbo

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o sorry in marines e.g scouts

#4
Leethal

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Yeah, I'm still going with Space Wolves since they're Scouts actually see combat, and usually do whatever.

The rest of the Legions somehow or never mentioned the Scout Stage. They just....accelerated into Full Space Marines. And Space Wolves are the only ones I ever ever ever ever ever ever seen mention of Scout armor during the Pre-Heresy era.

#5
Captain Malachi

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I don't see why there wouldn't have been scouts, they never got mentioned 'cos they aren't cool enough. :P I'd say snipers were probably used, they serve an important purpose on the battlefield.

#6
Pacific81

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The HH collected visions books have several pictures of 'scouts' and 'recon' units.

Some of these appear to be scouts in the way we all know them, as marines with less armour on (although it is not clear if they are rookies), but there are also images of power-armoured marines with sniper rifles/some form of long-las as 'recon' troops.

You have to remember the marine legions were massive, many around 100,000 if not more, and were self contained armies in their own right. As such many of the roles which would be carried out by imperial guard in a 40k battle, such as artillery, recon, communications etc. would often be done by marines instead.

So, there were definately 'snipers', but I think these took many different forms compared to their 40k counterparts.

#7
Angelfire

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I believe the Pokemon had used snipers during the Heresy...

Alpha Legion also had scouts for sure. I remember reading an excerpt about Omegon in carapace armor.

#8
Hrvat

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You have to remember the marine legions were massive, many around 100,000 if not more, and were self contained armies in their own right. As such many of the roles which would be carried out by imperial guard in a 40k battle, such as artillery, recon, communications etc. would often be done by marines instead.


That is if you go down the Art Book road. As it currently stands people (in 40K and we) do not know how large the legions were.

The Art Books and the 4th ed Chaos Codex mentions hundreds of thousands.
The prologue of some HH novels mentions tens of thousands.
IA articles and every bit of information that can be gathered from the HH novels, as well as number of second founded chapters supports the idea legions were in thousands, usually between 10K and 15K with a few beeing somewhat larger.


The results I came to when I went to try and calculate the number of marines per legion at the outbreak of HH

Sources supporting Legions strength in thousands - IA articles, HH novels

Sources supporting Legions strength in tens/hundreds of thousands - HH artbooks, Chaos Space Marines Codex ( "Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically-enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to conquer worlds." pg 7 )

Through reading various sources I was able to piece together these numbers. Pre-heresy company was 600 marines strong ( Horus Rising ) at least for the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and until other evidence is presented I will apply that number to all legions using companies.

Legion - Organisation - Size

Dark Angels - Chapters and Companies - ?

Emperors Children - Chapters and Companies - cca 18 000 ( 30 Companies at the onset of the HH )

Iron Warriors - Grand Companies - 12 000+ ( 12 Grand Companies at the onset of the HH, not counting the scattered troops on various worlds )

White Scars - Brotherhoods - ?

Space Wolves - Great Company - 13 000+ ( 13 Great Companies at the onset of the HH )

Imperial Fists - Companies - cca 30 000 ( 50 companies at the onset of the HH, it has to be taken into consideration they were away from the front live for several years before HH began )

Night Lords - ? - ?

Blood Angels - Chapters and Companies - ?

Iron Hands - (Clan)Companies - 6000+ ? ( 10 Companies made of veterans ( percentage of veterans in the legion unknown ) taking part in Istvan V battle - Fulgrim )

World Eaters - Companies - ?

Ultramarines - Chapters and Companies - ? ( were the largest so more than 30K )

Death Guard - Companies - cca 7 000 ? ( 7 companies that were considerably larger than normal ones )

Thousand Sons - Detachments - ?

Sons of Horus - Companies - cca 15 000 ( 25 companies at the onset of HH )

Word Bearers - Hosts - ?

Salamanders - Chapters and Companies - cca 6 000 ? ( 7 Companies and based on post-heresy look of the companies probably larger than usual ones )

Raven Guard - ? - cca 28 000 ? ( rather large legion considering that at Istvan V loyalists landed nearly 30K of troops of which it is certain 6K were Iron Hands, entire Salamanders and the rest was made of entire Raven Guard legion - Fulgrim )

Alpha Legion - ? - ?


Also it is said that Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers under command of Logar numbered around 50 000 marines at Istvan V. So if take there were 12K Iron Warriors, it leaves us with 38K worth of marines among other legions. If we also consider that Logar sent 1/2 ( my conjecture since I never found any reference what percentage of the legion was sent against UM, but considering the size of the UM it had to be substantial ) of his legion to Calth. It would make all of these three legions at roughly 15K at the onset of the HH.

Also based on reading Galaxy in Flames I made a conjecture there wasn't more than 10-11K of World Eaters

The only legions that currently keep me in the dark are Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons.




Hrvat

Edited by Hrvat, 17 November 2008 - 06:11 PM.


#9
Michael W

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Well, Dark Angels split something less than 50/50 (Fallen and not-so-Fallen), and founded 3 successors (+ the DA), so about 4,000 marines. Figure in casualties and they probably maxed at about 10,000 or so, full strength.

#10
angronn

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Also, current C:SM restates 2nd ed C:Ultramarines fluff, that the Ultramarines were largely untouched by Heresy losses, were the biggest Legion, and split into 23 thousand-strong Chapters. I can't see any Legion being above 30,000 from that.

#11
Rain

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Personally I never thought there was controversy over this as I think the Chaos Codex meant that all of the legions combined numbered "hundreds of thousands of genetically enhanced warriors" which makes sense as 20 legions x ~15k troops each = ~300,000 marines or "hundreds of thousands".

"I remember the day. The day the sky burned as the Dead Emperor's pet butchers descended on Old Badab to tear down all that we had built in His own name. It was in the final hours of that day that I scourged the wings from my breastplate forever. I remember the day. I remember, and so will they."

 

-Szadek Katarr, Warleader of the Red Corsairs

 

Angry Chaos Player™ since the dawn of Gav


#12
Vodunius

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Well, Dark Angels split something less than 50/50 (Fallen and not-so-Fallen), and founded 3 successors (+ the DA), so about 4,000 marines. Figure in casualties and they probably maxed at about 10,000 or so, full strength.


The current DA Codex says "When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, it is written in the surviving histories that the Dark Angels sired at least three chapters."

In Angels of Death the Fallen Angel Astellan claims he was one of 26 Dark Angel Chapter Masters*, the Interrogator Chaplain fails to challenge him on this so it would seem to have been possible, which woudl put them at 26,000 during the Great Crusade.

* according to some fluff Chapters were a division used within some Legions during the Great Crusade.


Most evidence does support the 10-20K per Legion, but I still prefer the 100K+ per Legion as it paints the Horus Heresy & Great Scouring as an epic bloodbath that bled the Astartes dry* to the point where there simply weren't enough of them left for them to fulfill their role as humanities front line forces, which I much prefer to the namby-pamby wishy-washy glorified skirmish the 3.x era fluff paints it as.

* 90% + casualties etc.
i hate to break it to you chaps, but according to the English Language a Chevron is a V shape, if your 'Chevrons' are not V shaped then they are just hazard stripes NOT Chevrons

Horus killed Sanguinius so hard that his entire chapter feels it forever..

#13
Pacific81

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Sorry if I am starting to sound like a stuck record on this issue, but its kind of important :D

Alan Merritt was responsible for much of the background of Collected Visions. He is also one of the main co-ordinators for the new Horus Heresy book range. There is every chance that the Horus Heresy books will continue to generally follow the events of Collected Visions, at least in general terms. We have also been told, by Dan Abnett himself at Gencon this year, that concerning the events of the Horus Heresy only, the current Horus Heresy series replaces anything that has been written before. This doesn't apply for all Black Library books, just the events of the Horus Heresy - it is important to make this distinction, before the oft repeated reply of "but GW have already said that rule books and codecies supplant BL material lol" - this was said before the release of the HH series, which will never be replaced by rulebooks/codex material simply because it describes events occuring long before the current timeline.

So, on topic, collected visions states:

Most Legions could muster at least 100,000 combatants. The Ultramarines Legion was by far the largest, and its Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, could muster over 250,000 Space Marines'


Presumably this does not include either the Salamanders or Emperor's Children which were known to be much smaller. Hrvat, I admire your stuidiousness in trying to work our the legion sizes from the info given so far in the books, but to me this is like trying to work out the age of the earth by adding up the lifespan of every character in the Bible - its making inferences without having knowledge of all the variables involved. This makes little sense when considering we have a quote from the acknowledged mother-brain of the entire Horus Heresy project telling us explicitly what sizes the legions were in Collected Visions.

#14
Hrvat

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Sorry if I am starting to sound like a stuck record on this issue, but its kind of important :D

Alan Merritt was responsible for much of the background of Collected Visions. He is also one of the main co-ordinators for the new Horus Heresy book range. There is every chance that the Horus Heresy books will continue to generally follow the events of Collected Visions, at least in general terms. We have also been told, by Dan Abnett himself at Gencon this year, that concerning the events of the Horus Heresy only, the current Horus Heresy series replaces anything that has been written before. This doesn't apply for all Black Library books, just the events of the Horus Heresy - it is important to make this distinction, before the oft repeated reply of "but GW have already said that rule books and codecies supplant BL material lol" - this was said before the release of the HH series, which will never be replaced by rulebooks/codex material simply because it describes events occuring long before the current timeline.

So, on topic, collected visions states:

Most Legions could muster at least 100,000 combatants. The Ultramarines Legion was by far the largest, and its Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, could muster over 250,000 Space Marines'


Presumably this does not include either the Salamanders or Emperor's Children which were known to be much smaller. Hrvat, I admire your stuidiousness in trying to work our the legion sizes from the info given so far in the books, but to me this is like trying to work out the age of the earth by adding up the lifespan of every character in the Bible - its making inferences without having knowledge of all the variables involved. This makes little sense when considering we have a quote from the acknowledged mother-brain of the entire Horus Heresy project telling us explicitly what sizes the legions were in Collected Visions.


I am fully aware who Alan Merritt is and what has been stated in the Art Books. My points is that art books+4th ed chaos codex are in minority when we consider sources on how large the legions were. I know collected visions stated what you have quoted but since it was published in 2007 (though it's contents are from 2005) it contains the information from before the begining of the HH novel series.

I see this in a similar problem to the great crusade/heresy timeline.

For years through IA articles we were told that legions were between 10-15K and some people objected that these numbers were too few (dispite what most think GW does listen to the customers, it is just that they show it in a bit strange way), so it was decided to increase them tenfold in the Art Books to add realism to the setting and make heresy look even more apocalyptic. Yet when they did it most of the people were not happy so when they got the chance they returned through the HH novel series to the old numbers(with a tester through C:CSM to see if maybe the 100K idea had grown on to the people).

Also what I did is somewhat different than what you are implying and if you are interested I could explain how I came to these numbers maybe even go a step further and make it a Librarium Article for easy reference, with references to all sources naming the strength of the legions along with my calculations.

I previously mentioned the timeline problem.

I personaly dislike how they have shortened everything which reduced the realism of the entire event.

Old Timeline

Great Crusade - starts sometimes in M29
Earliest date when all/most primarch were found - 826.M29 Dorn vs Night Hunter
125.M30 - Completion of Ullanor Campaign, Luna Wolves renamed Sons of Horus, Horus granted title of Warmaster - on his way to Terra gets corupetd on Davin and never returns to Earth before the final moments of the Heresy
007.M31 - Battles of Istvaan III and IV
014.M31 - Siege of Emperors palace
021.M31 - End of Scouring

I liked this timeline though it had problem it added such a sinister feel to Horus and made other primarchs a lot stronger because it needed nearly 9 centuries to fully corrupt them to his side.


New Timeline

Great crusade starts - 812.M30
007/8.M31 - Completion of Ullanor Campaign, Luna Wolves renamed Sons of Horus, Horus granted title of Warmaster
012.M31 - Battles of Istvaan III and IV
014.M31 - Siege of Emperors palace
021.M31 - End of Scouring


Based on these differences there were a few arguments on this very board over the past months because some people new one of these timelines, some new both but mixed stuff. It is imporant to state that the Older timeline was in the minds of the GW writters when they were doing the IA articles while the HH novels and Art Books use the new timeline. Now unless GW decided to write and give us codex/campain pack Horus Heresy in which they would once and for all decide which of these hold true.

But when we are considering 40K in general with the fact that truth is almost always a lie elements of both timeliens could hold true though one may be an Imperial propaganda while the other closer to what really happened.


In Angels of Death the Fallen Angel Astellan claims he was one of 26 Dark Angel Chapter Masters*, the Interrogator Chaplain fails to challenge him on this so it would seem to have been possible, which woudl put them at 26,000 during the Great Crusade.

* according to some fluff Chapters were a division used within some Legions during the Great Crusade.


Thanks on that info. I have been planing to get that book for some time, is it easily readable?
The Dark Angels had to be a substantial legion before the heresy because they:
fought some heavy engagements during the Heresy(alongside Space Wolves so no theory about waiting to see who would win, if anything Russ was staling the advance with wanting to punish every traitor they came across, which he later realised probably costed him his fathers life)
lost many ships and marines in the warp as they raced to earth
fought in some battles of the scouring
fought fallen on their own world
fought some more battles before 2nd founding was implemented

all of these fightings happened without any new recruits being recieved.


Most evidence does support the 10-20K per Legion, but I still prefer the 100K+ per Legion as it paints the Horus Heresy & Great Scouring as an epic bloodbath that bled the Astartes dry* to the point where there simply weren't enough of them left for them to fulfill their role as humanities front line forces, which I much prefer to the namby-pamby wishy-washy glorified skirmish the 3.x era fluff paints it as.


Your statement just confirms what I always believed that most people get a wrong impression about the HH and Great Crusade (in no small thanks to GW). The Horus Heresy was a bloodbath but marines made only a tiny almost insignificant amount of combatants which fought over critically vital locations for the outcome of the war creating the impression the HH was about vast armies of marines bashing each other brains out. The same thing is with xenos races and either bringing human-occupied planets into compliance or destroying them if they resisted.' class='bbc ipSeoAcronym'>GC, newer did marines make the majority of the Imperial forces. Space Marine legions were advancing along the most difficult fronts and due to being accompanied by primarch and them themselves being super men atracted way more attention than they deserved.

ups ^_^
I wondered of a bit


Cheers


Hrvat

#15
angronn

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Sorry if I am starting to sound like a stuck record on this issue, but its kind of important ^_^


As I also stated elsewhere in response to this point, BL itself is inconsistent in its canonicity, and therefore I don't think you can claim it is a trump card for deciding points like this.

As Hrvat said, I think the weight of evidence is on the side of smaller Legion sizes. Rain seems to have given a good explanation for C:CSM's statement.

EDIT: New 5th ed C:SM states Legions were ten thousand strong on p.6.

Edited by angronn, 23 October 2008 - 06:49 AM.


#16
angronn

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A little bit more research into C:CSM and the new C:SM gives conflicting information.

Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically-enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to conquer worlds.


This is the quote mentioned earlier, and the phraseology seems to indicate "each" Legion had hundreds of thousands of warriors, at least at the start of the Great Crusade.


On the planet's [Istvaan III's] surface had been over one hundred companies of Space Marines drawn from the Emperor's Children, Death Guard and World Eaters Legions, still loyal to the Emperor.


Assuming a company to be one hundred Marines, we get ten thousand Marines on Istvaan at the time of the bombing, drawn from three Legions. Assuming a fair distribution of loyalists, we'd get around 3,400 loyal Marines per Legion.


Whilst Horus resolved what to do with these survivors, Angron, headstrong Primarch of the World Eaters, made planetfall at the head of fifty companies of Space Marines. Horus was incensed by this rash move, but Angron had forced his hand and the Warmaster had despatched the remaining Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Death Guard units.


This passage seems to imply that Angron took all his World Eaters with him, as Horus has none to despatch with the rest of his forces. Therefore, at the start of the Heresy, the World Eaters would seem to have been comprised of fifty companies (5,000) plus a portion of "over a hundred companies", which for the sake of argument might be put at 3,400. So, 8,400.

Now, granted that there had been two hundred years of war between the start of the Great Crusade and the start of the Horus Heresy, and granted that the World Eaters were assault troops extraordinaire, it seems unlikely that losses could have been so severe to bring their numbers down from hundreds of thousands to a mere ten thousand or so. Of course, there have had to be assumptions in those numbers, such as "there were no World Eaters stationed elsewhere", "companies were 100 strong", "no World Eaters remained in orbit above Istvaan III", etc.


Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding...


Ten thousand at the start of the Great Crusade, but C:BT is the oldest of the proper (non-supplement) Space Marine Codicies, so could have been retconned.


Each Primarch led a Legion of Space Marines, each a formation considerably larger than the later Space Marine Chapters


Considerably larger. Hm, not all that helpful...


The Horus Heresy revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several of the early Space Marine Legions, which had been exacerbated by the need to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength in the terrible wars being fought at the time.


Huge - again, too non-specific to be useful, although it's worth noting that casualties incurred by the Legions could apparently be very high (this has bearing on the World Eaters example discussed above).


The new C:SM restates both the C:BT quote (on p.6) and the second C:DA quote (on p.8).

So, what to make of that?

#17
Hrvat

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On the planet's [Istvaan III's] surface had been over one hundred companies of Space Marines drawn from the Emperor's Children, Death Guard and World Eaters Legions, still loyal to the Emperor.


Assuming a company to be one hundred Marines, we get ten thousand Marines on Istvaan at the time of the bombing, drawn from three Legions. Assuming a fair distribution of loyalists, we'd get around 3,400 loyal Marines per Legion.


There is another problem with that statement. There were never more than 7 companies of Death Guard (though each was considerably larger than an average company, what ever number should that imply to though I am thinking around a 1000 would be it) and there were 30 companies of Emperor's Children before the HH, from my ponderings I came to conclude that EC companies were of same strength as the Sons of Horus ones, in other words 600 marines per company. Based on that one has to conclude this means the loyal force from DG, EC and WE numbered more than 100 post-heresy companies. We also know from the HH novels that SoH companies were down there as well. The exact number is escaping me but 2800 I think was mentioned in one of the books. So that would mean some 13000 were loyal of which 2/3 - 8500 survived the viral attack and then they were attacked by Angorn and his 50 companies.


Whilst Horus resolved what to do with these survivors, Angron, headstrong Primarch of the World Eaters, made planetfall at the head of fifty companies of Space Marines. Horus was incensed by this rash move, but Angron had forced his hand and the Warmaster had despatched the remaining Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Death Guard units.


This passage seems to imply that Angron took all his World Eaters with him, as Horus has none to despatch with the rest of his forces. Therefore, at the start of the Heresy, the World Eaters would seem to have been comprised of fifty companies (5,000) plus a portion of "over a hundred companies", which for the sake of argument might be put at 3,400. So, 8,400.

Now, granted that there had been two hundred years of war between the start of the Great Crusade and the start of the Horus Heresy, and granted that the World Eaters were assault troops extraordinaire, it seems unlikely that losses could have been so severe to bring their numbers down from hundreds of thousands to a mere ten thousand or so. Of course, there have had to be assumptions in those numbers, such as "there were no World Eaters stationed elsewhere", "companies were 100 strong", "no World Eaters remained in orbit above Istvaan III", etc.


Also there is this

'We lost great many in the landings and more than a few in the palace', replied Malgohurst. 'The Emperor's Children and the Death Guard were similarly mauled. The World Eaters lost the most. They are barely above half strength.'


So what ever the numbers WE were devastated by the battle on Istvaan III. SoH, WE and DG had similar casulties which numbered around 3K per legion if we go with the above mentioned angronn's estimate and GiF quote. If anything this would leave legions at Horuses command severally depleted and easy prey for any organised Imperial counterattack. At this point the Ultramarines or even Imperial Fists could have brought down the Heresy.



I will now go and check if I can find any HH references outside C:CSM how many marines were used by the legions during the drop at Istvaan III.


Cheers


Hrvat

Edited by Hrvat, 23 October 2008 - 12:31 PM.


#18
angronn

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Thanks for the info on company size.

That GiF quote is interesting, but don't forget that the 8,400 estimate is based on pre-Istvaan landings (i.e before the 50% losses).

As fun as this is, I suspect GW haven't really thought too much about exact numbers, just writing down whatever comes easiest at the time...

#19
Hrvat

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Found it.

Lokenand Torgaddon, fully armoured and ready for the drop, stood at the head of a host of Astartes. More than a third of the Legion was there, thousands of warriors arrayed for war.


So we know this.

There are 25 companies of SoH each 600 hundred strong, totaling 15 000 warriors before HH. Out of these 15 000 more than a third were "loyal" and dropped to Istvaan III. So more than third implies in my mind anything from 5 001 and 7 499, but would settle with a round number of 5 000 thousand. The SoH are commiting a force to Istvaan III rivaling 2/3 of DG legion.

So if we go by C:CSM of above 100 post-heresy companies for the other three legions and if we presume (this is a big if) that every legion had 1/3 of their number as "loyalist" this would make:


SoH - 15 000 (25 companies, 600 each) - 1/3 - 5 000
DG - 7 000 (7 Companies, larger than normal I guess 1 000) - around 1/3 - 2 000
EC - 18 000 (30 companies, 600 each?) - around 1/3 - 4 000
WE - 7 000 (70 companies, 100 each) - around 1/3 - 2 000

Total loyalist: 16 000 (10 000 survived bombing)

So we have traitor

SoH - 10 000
DG - 5 000 -
EC - 14 000 -
WE - 5 000 -

Total: 34 000 - and we know that there were almost 30 000 traitors on Istvaan V before the attack of the IH, RG and SA - so that would mean traitors suffered around 4 000 casulties on Istvaan III. Also WE were brought down to almost 1/2 of their strength and other legions suffered similar casulties. With that in mind we get this

SoH - around 9 000
DG - around 4 000
EC - around 13 000
WE - barelly above 1/2 - around 4 000 (this is me being generous)
Total: 30 000

Than we come to Istvaan III

Traitors have almost 30K (Fulgrim)
The loyalist legions of the 1st wave have nearly 40K marines(Fulgrim, I make a mistake in my previous post), and based on what we know about the legions here is their disposition there:

IH - 10 veteran companies, 600 marines each? - 6 000
SA - Entire legion of 7 companies, smallest legion - 6 000?
RG - Entire legion - 28 000 based on the numbers above

In the fighting all save 5 were killed (C:CSM), a few dozen maybe a few hundred escaped (HH novels).

...almost the entire strength of three complete legions lay silent and dead...

From that it would seam that veterans made the majority of the IH legion and considering the fact there are no reports of them taking part in the rest of the heresy and their contribution to the scouring can only be guessed and the fact they divided into only 3 chapters would in my mind put the entire strength of the IH chapter at around 10 000 marines before HH


The traitors of the scond wave made a force which was larger than that of the first wave "in a single stroke the loyalist forces were more than dubbled". I made a simple number of 50k. Since we know there were 12K IW and if we assume that roughly 70% of WB were present since "a considerable force was sent to attack Ultramar" and if we persume NL and AL were around same size we get these numbers

IW - 12 Grand Companies, each 1000 strong - 12 000 - there were more IW but they were scattered throughout the galaxy
NL - 14 000
AL - 14 000 - considering legions modus operandi there could probably be more of them hidden and unknown to both sides
WB - 10 000 - 4 000 sent to ambush Ultramar


Following the fighting on Istvaan V eight traitor legions had around 70K of troops, the traitors of the second wave took no or very few casulties which would mean the original traitors suffered around 10K casulties distributed percentually evenly. Resulting in this being the possible strength of traitor legions before heir addvance beyond the Istvaan system.

To that we add the strength of the TS who were a small legion but still larger than Salamanders and were just hit by the SW. So I am guessing 7 000 before SW attack and some 4 000 after SW attack, but the books about Prospero that are announced will shed more light on the matter.

SoH - 6 000
DG - 3 000
EC - 9 000
WE - 3 000
IW - 12 000 + unknown
NL - 14 000
AL - 14 000 + unknown
WB - 10 000 + 4 000
TS - 4 000

Total: around 80 000 marines were at Horuses command along with countless billions of army soldiers


Loyal Legions after Istvaan fighting

IF - 50 companies - around 30 000 thousand
SW - 13 Great companies, 1000 marines each - 13 000 prior to Prospero - 10 000 post Prospero
DA - 26 chapters (at least), 1000 marines each - 26 000 my guess 6 chapters were on Caliban - 20 000 under Lion
BA - completely unknown to me but they were never mentioned as being small (under 10K) or big (above 30K) - 20 000 my guess considering they bolstered the defences of Terra following the battle at Signus? and after grueling battles still had sufficient numbers Horus thought he would need against the incoming SW and DA
WS - unknown, also not mentioned as either being small or big - around 15 000 because Horus believed Alpharius could handle them on his own
UL - the larges so more than IF - my guess maybe 35-40K but no more
IH - 4 000

Total: around 135 000 marines ready to fight for the Emperor


Woah this was plentyful


With all of this in mind I can understand why Horus was presured to complete everything in a rather limited time table. The marines left to the Emperor were clearly superior in numbers though they had the weakness of position. Keeping the UM far away from Terra now seams as really important thing, I guess the fact IF were stationed on Terra didn't make Horus happy either, also keeping DA and SW sufficiently far away is also something to consider.

I am quite sure were Lion and Guilliman closer to Istvaan system the traitor legions might have never left it, because close on their victory on Istvaan V they would have been hit by another wave of around 90 000 marines from the IF, DA and UM legions. These force would have probably been able to defeat the opposition on their own, but their primary concern would be to pin the traitors down before other Legions came to slaughter the rebels.

From my perspective the Heresy was destined to fail since Horus had so many things against him, yet the fact he got as far as he did serves as a reminder how great he was and how dangerous he had become.


Cheers


Hrvat

#20
Lost Legion Commander

Lost Legion Commander

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My post seems a bit short compared to some of these histories but didnt the Mantis Warriors/Mantis Legion use Space Marine Sniper squads before or during the heresy?

#21
Grand Master Tyrak

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Mantis Warriors aren't a Legion. :lol:
Maybe you are confused with the Mentors, I've heard then referred to as the Mentor Legion. They aren't an original Legion though.

Edited by Grand Master Tyrak, 23 October 2008 - 08:38 PM.

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