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BA 5th Edition FAQ - VII


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#1
Morticon

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This FAQ thread will serve to answer as many of the Frequently Asked Questions from the BA codex as possible.

We will also highlight the potential RAW vs RAP (Rules as Played) issues that may arise.


There will be 2 sections that will be updated as we get more information:


1. FAQ -

These will be as the title suggests, questions that pop up with a great deal of frequency.

* Please note, that rules that are answered by a simple reading of the rules/sentences in question will be answered very briefly with a page number as reference.


2. RAW vs RAP -

These will be issues that are (arguably) flawed in some way due to the wording of the rules. We will attempt to offer both sides of the for and against like the "Dice off" thread in the Official Rules Forum.

As with our Forum Rules and our Mission Statement supporting productive gaming and the hobbying we, here at the Bolter and Chainsword, would also like to suggest that players strongly consider the "Rules as Played" for their groups rather than relying on RAW technicalities which would result in odd obscurities both fluffwise and game mechanic wise.
In the end however, the choice of how you play in your own group is yours.


Additionally, we strongly, strongly urge all BA players (or opponents of BA players) to help clarify these RAW vs RAP issues by writing (and continuing to write as often as they can- within reason) a polite letter to the following address:

Alessio Cavatore
C/O Games Workshop LTD
Willow Rd, Lenton
Nottingham
NG7 2WS
England

Edited by Morticon, 24 April 2010 - 07:59 AM.

Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#2
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Frequently Asked Questions :

special thanks to OwlandMoonGuy for the formatting and editing.

1. What are RAS and VAS?
RAS is the abbreviation for Regular Assault Squad - a term used to differentiate Assault Squads found in the Troops section vs. VAS, meaning Veteran Assault Squads. Ref. Note that these terms were used to specifically describe units in the previous edition of the Blood Angel Codex. With the latest revision in 2010, the RAS term has been retained but other assault squads have their own abbreviations; VV = Vanguard Veterans, SG = Sanguinary Guard, etc.

2. Do Vanguard Veterans get Descent of Angels (DoA)?
Yes. The Wargear section on C:BA, pg 62 states that all Blood Angel infantry equipped with Jump Packs gain the DoA rule. It is therefore important to note that DoA is a benefit granted solely to jump infantry units. In cases where a unit can either purchase or remove jump packs, the benefit can be likewise gained or lost. (See RAW vs. RAP issues below.)

3. Corbulo, Seth and Astorath all have weapons that strike at a higher strength then the one listed on their stat line. Do they also get the +1 strength bonus from Furious Charge?
No. As with Relic Blades from C:SM, the weapon’s strength value replaces that of the user’s. Furious Charge grants the user +1 strength not the weapon they’re using.

4.a How does the Magna Grapple work vs. Vehicle Squadrons? 4.b How does this work if you then charge that squad while they are out of coherency?
a. The rules outlined in the C:BA, pg 60 state that, “if the target survives the ensuing assault phase, it’ll be able to move normally in its next turn.” When it successfully, the vehicle will simply be moved out of coherency and will then be forced to move back into coherency when it is able to do so, as per the coherency rules in the BRB, pg 12 & 64.

b. As per the rules for assaults, there is nothing stopping an attacker from damaging models in a unit outside of coherency. In the case of walkers, the walker’s squadron will make a 6" reaction move and then fight if it is in within 2" of the charged model. If pulled outside of this range they will not be able to fight but can still sustain damage as the owning player allocates scored hits.

5. Can a Storm Raven fire using PotMS if it moved Flat Out?
Yes. As per the Power of the Machine Spirit rule (PotMS), it may fire one more weapon than it is normally allowed. This also includes when the vehicle is shaken or stunned.

6. When do you measure range from a Sanguinary Priest for determining the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain bonus?

EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
(We were right about the FNP, but not the FC!)

7. Do multiple Sanguinary Guard units, equipped with death masks force opponents to make multiple Leadership tests?
No. Per the rules governing Death Masks on C:BA, pg 50, only one test is taken.

8. Does Tycho get a bonus attack for the Dead Man’s Hand?
No. The Dead Man’s hand is never defined as nor counts as a Close Combat weapon. Therefore it cannot grant an extra attack in close combat.

EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
(The above is correct).

9. How are Blood Strike missiles counted? As a single weapon system or as four separate weapons?

They are four separate weapons. Therefore, each one counts as a single weapon system when fired and each one is subject to the limitations imposed by the speed of the Stormraven during the movement phase (plus PotMS). Likewise, when the Stormraven takes damage, each missile is removed separately for the resolution of Weapon Destroyed results.

10. When a Librarian uses the Blood Lance psychic power can the Librarian then assault any of the targets hit by the power?
No, only the first target hit. Unless otherwise stated, Blood Lance is considered a, psychic shooting attack. Unless the psychic rule states otherwise, all typical shooting rules must be enforced. This can be compared to a Blast weapon that happens to hit multiple enemy units. Only the initial unit targeted can be assaulted by the firing unit.

EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
Oddly it is not the initial targeted unit, but the "first" unit hit (which is more often than not going to be the targeted unit anyway).


11. If I shoot multiple vehicles with the Blood Lance, do the subsequent vehicles that are out of my LOS receive a cover save?

Yes. As per the rules for cover on Pg. 21 and 62. if the target is out of LOS/Obscured from the point of view of the firer it will receive a cover save.


12. How does Fear of the Darkness interact with units that have Stubborn?

Fear will still cause a morale test to be taken and if failed, the unit will fall back. However, the -2 modifier does not apply as Stubborn negates this.

13. If a dreadnought is in base to base with an IC and a squad, can its Blood Talon attacks follow on to the IC if he was not originally targetted?

Yes. According to the BT rules, they generate extra attacks which allows the dreadnought to "immediately make an additional attack". According to the "Combat rules pg: 49: "when the attacks are resolved, independent characters are always treated as a separate single unit”. Since the choice to target the ICs is made when the attacks are resolved and the BTs do not instruct us who to attack, we are safe to assume we may choose to attack any legal target at that point.


14. Can other ICs join Mephiston since hes a unit of one?

No. The standard rules in the rule book prevent ICs from joining any other units that always consist of one model (except other ICs).



To be updated.....

Edited by Morticon, 01 July 2010 - 08:53 AM.

Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#3
Morticon

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RAW vs RAP issues :

special thanks to OwlandMoonGuy for the initial work.


1. If a BA unit has the Descent of Angels rule in its army list entry do they retain this rule even if they aren’t equipped with Jump Packs? If so can use the DoA rule while embarked in transports?

RAW:
For - By RAW, the DoA rule is assigned to the unit and therefore being equipped with Jump Packs is not required.
Against - "Other units in the BA army that can arrive by deep strike do so using the normal rules".
Problem - How then does a unit using the normal rules for deep strike benefit from a unit with DOA?

RAP:
No, the units lose DoA along with the Jump Packs. The language used in the Wargear section under Jump Packs, pg. 62 makes this clear, “a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rules (see page 23).” So, in the case where Assault Troops opt to remove their packs in order to take a discounted Dedicated Transport, they forfeit DoA. This is clearly a Jump Pack based ability.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
RAP!

2. Can Tactical, Assault, Sternguard, etc. use Dedicated Transports not listed on Pg. 90; e.g. the Land Raider variants listed on pg 91?

RAW:
For - The rule states "any dedicated transport". Page 90 is the start of the Dedicated Transport section which extends to pg 91. therefore falls within the first rule. Additionally, the table of contents lists "Dedicated Transports" as pg. 90 - further solidifying the page reference format.
Against - Certain army list entries state that, “it [the unit] can select any dedicated transport (see page 90),” even though the list of transports extend to pg 91. So by RAW, any dedicated transport is limited by the parenthetical reference to page 90. Therefore this would omit those listed on page 91.
Problem - Mainly one of interpretation of "any" vs. a specific page.

RAP:
Yes - the certainly can use Land Raiders. Various fluff entries about BA having more Land Raiders, the GW article where it says: "The exception to all this are their Land Raiders, which incidentally, Blood Angels squads can take as dedicated transports." and the Devastator fluff entry about them getting Land Raiders all give credence to the intent of the rule.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
RAP!

3. The Shield of Sanguinius stats that it provides all ‘units’ in range with a 5+ cover save. Does the save apply only to infantry or does it include vehicles as well?

RAW:
Against - The only way a vehicle is able to take a cover save is by being "obscured"
For - The rules stating obscured is a requirement for a cover save are noted as exceptions to the rules for cover. This ability is not cover, it is a power that grants a save. Additionally, if the "against" argument is to be maintained we have a logical moot point. ie:

If X is a prerequisite of doing Y.
and Z allows you to do Y.
Then, with those rules at hand Z must grant X by the allowance of Y.
Problem - Stubbornness and egos?

RAP:
Yes- you can take it. "Any unit" is pretty easy to comprehend. The necessity for finicky reading and word-work to procure an alternative interpretation is far, far greater than a simple reading of the rules at hand.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
RAP!

4. If a Furioso Dread upgrades to become a Librarian can it also take other options like magna-grapples, extra armor, etc.?

RAW:
For- Since the order of options upgrades is undefined, the question becomes, when is all wargear exchanged? Since this is ambiguous, it can be considered permissible to fist upgrade to a Librarian and then add other items like the magna-grapple, extra armor, etc.
Against - The entry in the army list states on pg 85, “Upgrade to a Furioso Librarian, exchanging all wargear…” This option is the last one listed in the army list so it therefore must supersede all others. So any additional wargear purchased would be lost when the Librarian option is selected (obviously not a very equitable trade).
Problem - The layout of the wording and history of the layout style implies you cannot get additional wargear - but RAW its does not seem irrefutable one way or the other.

RAP:
Yes, it can. This is in agreement with the Ork Codex FAQ where before Nobs of Shoota Boy squads were argued to not be able to get a power klaw.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
RAW - so, no upgrades !

5. Can a vehicle equipped with smoke launchers discharge them when making a Scout move?

RAW:
For - The BRB pg 62 defines the rules associated with Smoke Launchers. It states literally, “Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them.” The definition of move does not specify movement conducted in the Movement phase. Any vehicle that has not shot any of its weapons in the shooting phase may instead discharge smoke launchers after any legal movement.
Against -The rule: "you may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers" implies that it is used in a "turn". Scout moves happen before the game starts.
Problem - Arguments of intent and the fact that while the against argument is implicit its not exclusive.

RAP:
This will largely depend on your group. But please consider that, though not expressly stated, the rules for smoke launchers are written in the context of a typical game turn, not accounting for exceptions based on USR’s. So movement only equates to movement conducted in the Movement phase, not any & all movement.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
Yes you can it seems!


6. Do walkers/non-tank vehicles cause Tank Shock when grappled?

RAW:
For - According to the Grapple rule on pg. 60 of C:BA, “Treat any non-vehicle unit the target [i.e. the grappled vehicle] moves over as having been tank-shocked.” This is an exception to the normal Tank Shock rules where all vehicle types can Tank Shock if being dragged by the Grapple. This follows the same logic issue as the Shield issue.
Against- According to BRB, pg 68, the Tank vehicle type is the only one allowed to initiate a Tank Shock attack. Therefore, all other vehicle types cannot be used to Tank Shock enemy units when being grappled.
Problem - ..

RAP:
Walkers and non-tanks probably shouldn't give tank shock - though this is an issue where intent is a little tougher to decipher. As with smoke launchers, this will largely depend on your group.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
Yup it does! Who knew?

7. Can a player measure the 6" area effect for locator beacons and teleport homers before Deep Striking units are placed?

RAW:
For - The measurement rules on BRB pg. 3 state that a measurement can be taken, “to work out a rule’s area of effect.” Since homers and locator beacons are, “area effect rules” this measurement can be taken at any time. Therefore, the measurement can freely be taken before any Deep Striking models arrive.
Against - The BRB, pg 3 defines the rules for measuring distances and when a measurement should be taken. The rule states, “In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it.” The text then goes on to provide examples of when a measurement should be taken; “after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule’s area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.”
Problem - Different parties have different views on whether or not the locator beacon counts as "a rule's area of effect".

RAP:
Yes you can. Locators have a rule, that have an area which they effect. That's the whole fluff point of the Locator in the first place- that they can come down from the sky on a certain point.

8. Is a "Blood Chalice" and a "Chalice of Blood" the same thing?
Note, the Blood Chalice is mentioned in C:BA, pg 48 & 85 under the heading Sanguinary Priests and on pg 84, under Honour Guard. The Chalice of Blood is mentioned under the Options: section for Sanguinary Priest, under the fourth bullet point, “Replace all wargear with Terminator armour with Chalice of Blood and power sword.”

RAW:
For - Nothing other than the fact this item would not have rules.
Against - By RAW, all rules are explicit and discrete, the two names define two different items of wargear. Since there are no rules provided for a, “Chalice of Blood” there are therefore no accompanying affects on game play.
Problem - There are no rules for this item

RAP:
Yes, of course they are the same thing. In all cases, Sanguinary Priests in C:BA carry a Blood Chalice, no matter how they are equipped. This option merely states that this item of wargear is retained by the Sanguinary Priest after taking terminator armour option for the points listed.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
RAP!

9. Does Death Company Tycho join the DC?
For - Yes. The words "death company", "...following his induction into the DC" and loss of IC status implies he is a member of the DC, of which you can only have one unit normally.
Against - No. There are no explicit explanations of his induction into the DC or dynamic therein.
Problem - Conventional reading of the rules leads to stronger "against" interpretations.

RAP:
This will more than likely depend on your group, but the inclusion of 2 new HQ non-IC chioces gives credence to his status as a non-DC member.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
As evidence hinted, sadly Tycho is not a DC member.

10. Neither the Whirlwind nor the Vindicator weapons are listed as blast weapons. Does this mean they are single shot?

For - Yes. That's what the rules say. The "ordnance" rule says blasts are automatically large, however its not listed as blast even.
Against - There is no RAW to support an argument against this.
Problem - This is very clearly a typo and the same typo that was made in the SM dex when it was released. Anyone not wanting to allow Whirlwinds and Vindies as large blasts like they are obviously supposed to be, are very, very poor sports.


EDIT: This has been clarified in the official FAQ.
Oddly enough, they missed the Whirly but got the vindy!

11. Sanguine Sword does not specify a duration or expiration time. Does this mean we only need to cast it once?

For - Yes. That's what the rules allow.
Against - There is no solid RAW to support an argument against this. The only inferences that can be made are the implications that, grammatically, the attacks can be read to be referenced to a specific set of attacks.

Problem - The unprecedented use of a power with an entire game duration casts serious doubt to the legitimacy of this argument. Especially one that is as powerful as a S10 attack on an IC Libby or Mephiston. RAW we seem to have a stronger argument for. However RAI will likely see the majority of reasonable players electing to use it one turn only.

more to come when we get it....

Edited by Morticon, 20 July 2010 - 08:06 AM.

Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#4
Morticon

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New thread open for business!
Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#5
Wax_Assassin

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7. Can a player measure the 6" area effect for locator beacons and teleport homers before Deep Striking units are placed?

RAW:
For - The measurement rules on BRB pg. 3 state that a measurement can be taken, “to work out a rule’s area of effect.” Since homers and locator beacons are, “area effect rules” this measurement can be taken at any time. Therefore, the measurement can freely be taken before any Deep Striking models arrive.
Against - The BRB, pg 3 defines the rules for measuring distances and when a measurement should be taken. The rule states, “In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it.” The text then goes on to provide examples of when a measurement should be taken; “after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule’s area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.”
Problem - Different parties have different views on whether or not the locator beacon counts as "a rule's area of effect".

RAP:
Yes you can. Locators have a rule, that have an area which they effect. That's the whole fluff point of the Locator in the first place- that they can come down from the sky on a certain point.



9. Does Death Company Tycho join the DC?
For - Yes. The words "death company", "...following his induction into the DC" and loss of IC status implies he is a member of the DC, of which you can only have one unit normally.
Against - No. There are no explicit explanations of his induction into the DC or dynamic therein.
Problem - Conventional reading of the rules leads to stronger "against" interpretations.

RAP:
Yes, obviously Tycho is supposed to join the Death Company. He loses his IC status just like Lemartes.


These are the only two I have a problem with. Over all a very good, and well put together list.

#6
OwlandMoonGuy

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@Wax_Assassin: Would you be interested in rewriting them or at least pointing out how they needed to be corrected or expanded upon?

Cheers, -OMG

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#7
deadlift58

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its been a long while for me, do we still roll for DC at the start of the game, and how does that work?

#8
JamesI

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its been a long while for me, do we still roll for DC at the start of the game, and how does that work?

No, DC are just a unit purchased like anyother.

Welcome back!

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#9
deadlift58

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thanks for the quick reply, thats kinda what i thought, like i said, its been a while

#10
Wax_Assassin

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@Wax_Assassin: Would you be interested in rewriting them or at least pointing out how they needed to be corrected or expanded upon?

Cheers, -OMG


Well, I've already argued with people on here about no measuring for Locator Beacons before placing the first model of a deep striking unit. My view is that you must place the model first,then measure to see if it falls within the 6" AoE of the Beacon. This covers being allowed to measure the range of the effect, but still allows for failure if you estimate and choose to place incorrectly. I know a lot of people will disagree, but when you are no allowed to measure an assault, or a shooting attack before you declare it, why should you get to measure the range on the Beacon before you declare it?

As for Tycho, while it would be nice to see a Errata making DC Tycho join the DC (if you have one), right now from a rules perspective, nothing says he joins the DC. The fluff/"rules" for the two different Tychos says, "one to represent Tycho following his induction into the Death Company." Nothing about this says that he joins a purchased DC unit. It simply says that is "represents" him after he fell to the Black Rage.

That's all I have to say for right now. I'm willing to present further argument for my positions, but most of it has been said already. Once again, an excellent FAQ over all.

#11
Brother-Captain Sicarius

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@Wax_Assassin: Would you be interested in rewriting them or at least pointing out how they needed to be corrected or expanded upon?

Cheers, -OMG


Well, I've already argued with people on here about no measuring for Locator Beacons before placing the first model of a deep striking unit. My view is that you must place the model first,then measure to see if it falls within the 6" AoE of the Beacon. This covers being allowed to measure the range of the effect, but still allows for failure if you estimate and choose to place incorrectly. I know a lot of people will disagree, but when you are no allowed to measure an assault, or a shooting attack before you declare it, why should you get to measure the range on the Beacon before you declare it?

As for Tycho, while it would be nice to see a Errata making DC Tycho join the DC (if you have one), right now from a rules perspective, nothing says he joins the DC. The fluff/"rules" for the two different Tychos says, "one to represent Tycho following his induction into the Death Company." Nothing about this says that he joins a purchased DC unit. It simply says that is "represents" him after he fell to the Black Rage.

That's all I have to say for right now. I'm willing to present further argument for my positions, but most of it has been said already. Once again, an excellent FAQ over all.

now i agree with you on the tycho part, but i am not entirely sure what i think of the beacon, as the beacon is used in the movement phase it could be argued that as you are allowed to mesure where you want to move your moddels and then deside that you would rathere have them go somewhere els instead you can do just that (as long as you have not already moved them and started on another unit) (BRB P.11 movement distance), you would also be allowed the same thing for other things in the movement phase :lol: but im not sure about wether it's the one or the other that counts here (my group allows to pre-mesure)

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#12
Theikos

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My buddy plays Dark Angels and what we both do is:

1. Declare which teleport homer/locator beacon you are using
2. Measure out 6" to determine what your landing zone is.
3. It must be placed in this zone.


Basically we figure that whatever is teleporting or landing is following the beacon to figure out where they want to be. By that logic unless the thing is jammed, it works and they just land appropriately.. you can't pick and choose which beacon they get after measuring though, we make the choice before measuring.


Theikos

#13
Ashe Darke

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I don't think the Tycho/Lemartes comparison is fair. Lemartes is in a grey box, and like all upgrades of that type, Honour Guard etc he is an upgrade for them. You can't have Lemartes without that squad.

Tycho isn't in a grey box and so isn't an upgrade for that squad. There is nothing to say he can join a squad, the rules allow you to field him at two different points in his life, before and after joining the Death Company. That's all that is.

#14
EmperorBobo

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I just noticed that it doesn't say anywhere in the codex that Mephiston is an independent character, neither page 47 or 82 have it under his special rules. I'm pretty sure this was just a mistake because under the decision that because death company tycho is not a special character and so should be in a death company squad where would Mephiston go?

Edited by EmperorBobo, 27 April 2010 - 07:21 AM.


#15
vahouth

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AFAIK Mephiston is a one man unit, not an IC.
How could someone argue that you could not pick him out in close combat if he is in BtB anyway? :)

Edited by vahouth, 27 April 2010 - 07:11 AM.


#16
EmperorBobo

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If he is a one man unit that would be worse than having to join a squad because it would no longer be an option. Would be pretty easy to shoot at him.
You're right, if he is a one man unit you can definitely go after him.

I really shouldn't be posting, its 4 am and I should be sleeping...

#17
vahouth

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You could be surprised on how easy it is to hide him. :)

#18
Ashe Darke

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Mephiston is basically like a BA Daemon Prince with Warptime and you use the same tactics. You can either stick him in a Rhino or hide him behind it and they can zoom off together using his psychic powers. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to go around on his own as he is a combat monster and sticking him in a squad makes it all too easy to get him into combat safely. Him having a meat shield is too much.

#19
Sanguinarian

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I don't think the Tycho/Lemartes comparison is fair. Lemartes is in a grey box, and like all upgrades of that type, Honour Guard etc he is an upgrade for them. You can't have Lemartes without that squad.

Tycho isn't in a grey box and so isn't an upgrade for that squad. There is nothing to say he can join a squad, the rules allow you to field him at two different points in his life, before and after joining the Death Company. That's all that is.


Is he still an HQ unit in his DC version? And as for his Dead Man's Hand, IMHO it's described as a "master-crafted power-melta-fist."

Mephiston is basically like a BA Daemon Prince with Warptime and you use the same tactics. You can either stick him in a Rhino or hide him behind it and they can zoom off together using his psychic powers. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to go around on his own as he is a combat monster and sticking him in a squad makes it all too easy to get him into combat safely. Him having a meat shield is too much.


Unless I was doing something wrong, my buddy's DE Archaon (2++ Invul with Shadowfield) put 3 unsaveable wounds on the LoD before finally rolling a 1 in the 3rd Round. No Invul Save for our Chief Librarian is absurd!!! Every named character except Mephy has an Invul Save!?! Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him.

Edited by Sanguinarian, 27 April 2010 - 08:42 PM.

"Loose us on the heretics, traitors and daemon-lovers, but hide your faithful and participate not in the battle. For we have judged the whole of your people as weak and deserving only of the Emperor's wrath!!!" - Commander Michelangelis, Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood



My 2011 LPC WIP Thread

#20
Ashe Darke

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Yeah, he's still a HQ choice. The only connection between the two is the fact they're both DC. They used the word 'induction' to indicate him becoming a part of the DC in the fluff but it seems some people think that means he joins the unit. I kinda like the idea of the non IC characters. It's different, it makes them seem more beardy if they're like 'I don't need a posse'. Either way there is nothing to indicate the DC Tycho is a unit upgrade for a DC squad. They have a format for that and he doesn't follow it.

Aye he does have weaknesses but him not having one isn't balanced. He is toughness 6 and has 5 wounds with a 2+ save and the careful positioning of a SP can give him FNP as well. The idea is he strikes before everyone in combat and smashes them before he can hurt them. This is why you need to hide him until the time is right, a Mephiston up your sleeve so to speak.

Edited by Ashe Darke, 27 April 2010 - 09:45 PM.


#21
Wax_Assassin

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Is he still an HQ unit in his DC version? And as for his Dead Man's Hand, IMHO it's described as a "master-crafted power-melta-fist."


Yes he is still an HQ in his DC version. And no, that is not how the Dead Man's Hand is described. It is described as his close combat attacks ignoring armor saves, gaining an extra d6 against vehicles, and having digital weapons. Nothing like what you are implying.

Unless I was doing something wrong, my buddy's DE Archaon (2++ Invul with Shadowfield) put 3 unsaveable wounds on the LoD before finally rolling a 1 in the 3rd Round. No Invul Save for our Chief Librarian is absurd!!! Every named character except Mephy has an Invul Save!?! Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him.


Well you did something wrong when you put Meph in CC against something that had a power weapon, a 2++, and a high I. Surprise, Meph can't kill everything, he has weaknesses. Be smart about where you put him (remember he has a potential 24" threat range) and don't throw him up against stuff he's not set up to handle.

Bottom line: learn how to use your units effectively before you start crying about how they aren't powerful enough. Meph is just fine. The fact that he is insanely killy is balanced by the fact that he isn't an IC, and doesn't have an invul. Use your head and don't put him in situations that exploit these weaknesses.

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Sanguinarian

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Is he still an HQ unit in his DC version? And as for his Dead Man's Hand, IMHO it's described as a "master-crafted power-melta-fist."


Yes he is still an HQ in his DC version. And no, that is not how the Dead Man's Hand is described. It is described as his close combat attacks ignoring armor saves, gaining an extra d6 against vehicles, and having digital weapons. Nothing like what you are implying.


Loosen up a lil bit, dude. RAW says it "ignores armour saves" just like an unmodified strength PW/PF;
#2: he's "allowed to re-roll a single die to wound", just like an MC weapon;
#3 it says "add an extra D6 for armour pen", just like a melta.

I wasn't rewriting the rule, I just "likened" it to a master-crafted-power-melta-fist. Sheesh. :HQ:

Unless I was doing something wrong, my buddy's DE Archaon (2++ Invul with Shadowfield) put 3 unsaveable wounds on the LoD before finally rolling a 1 in the 3rd Round. No Invul Save for our Chief Librarian is absurd!!! Every named character except Mephy has an Invul Save!?! Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him.


Well you did something wrong when you put Meph in CC against something that had a power weapon, a 2++, and a high I. Surprise, Meph can't kill everything, he has weaknesses. Be smart about where you put him (remember he has a potential 24" threat range) and don't throw him up against stuff he's not set up to handle.

Bottom line: learn how to use your units effectively before you start crying about how they aren't powerful enough. Meph is just fine. The fact that he is insanely killy is balanced by the fact that he isn't an IC, and doesn't have an invul. Use your head and don't put him in situations that exploit these weaknesses.


I know things get lost in translation, but who the heck are you talking to like that? You don't know me, nor I you. I'm a grown man, not a 12-yo at your local LGS. I asked a question. A simple non-agressive, uninsulting answer would have sufficed. Be cool next time, Jack. ;) ;)

[EDIT] Besides, you act like I brought eternal shame to the entire BA Chapter??? And, as if it really matters, it was a meta-match over the phone to dispell his overkillyness that we keep reading about. It just goes to show how EVERYONE else playing against Meph hasn't learned how to pop him from afar. Not how I used him. I don't even own him. :D

Edited by Sanguinarian, 27 April 2010 - 11:39 PM.

"Loose us on the heretics, traitors and daemon-lovers, but hide your faithful and participate not in the battle. For we have judged the whole of your people as weak and deserving only of the Emperor's wrath!!!" - Commander Michelangelis, Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood



My 2011 LPC WIP Thread

#23
kollar

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I'm going to agree with Wax_Assassin on the DC Tycho issue. If he was ever intended to go in the DC, he wouldn't have Fleet, as the rule would be completely pointless for him. He is also listed in the HQ section of the book, as well as there being a precedent of two other "non-IC" characters in the codex. With all of this highly compelling evidence, I see absolutely no reason why a small flavour text should indicate him being a upgrade character like Lemartes.

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Wax_Assassin

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Loosen up a lil bit, dude. RAW says it "ignores armour saves" just like an unmodified strength PW/PF;
#2: he's "allowed to re-roll a single die to wound", just like an MC weapon;
#3 it says "add an extra D6 for armour pen", just like a melta.

I wasn't rewriting the rule, I just "likened" it to a master-crafted-power-melta-fist. Sheesh. :(


Sorry, but from how you wrote it I felt that you were implying that the Dead Man's Hand should count as a CC weapon. As long as you understand that it doesn't I'm fine with you calling it whatever you want to. To be fair, an even better way of putting it is that he hits like an MC in assault.

No Invul Save for our Chief Librarian is absurd!!! Every named character except Mephy has an Invul Save!?!


Look at what you typed right here. Sorry for saying that you were crying, but really, what you typed fits what I think of when I think of people crying about rules. Gotta call 'em like I see 'em.

I know things get lost in translation, but who the heck are you talking to like that? You don't know me, nor I you. I'm a grown man, not a 12-yo at your local LGS. I asked a question. A simple non-agressive, uninsulting answer would have sufficed. Be cool next time, Jack. :angry: ;)

[EDIT] Besides, you act like I brought eternal shame to the entire BA Chapter??? And, as if it really matters, it was a meta-match over the phone to dispell his overkillyness that we keep reading about. It just goes to show how EVERYONE else playing against Meph hasn't learned how to pop him from afar. Not how I used him. I don't even own him. :D


Hey man, you're the one who's going off about the fact that it's

absurd!!!

that Meph doesn't have an invul. All I was saying is that you shouldn't put him in situations where that drawback is exploited. For someone who says they were trying to "dispell" (SIC) rumors about "his overkillyness" you sure seem to be upset about it. I simply told you what you did wrong in that situation. Nothing I said implies aggressiveness or me not being cool. Sorry that you don't want my advice, but you seemed to be asking for it.

#25
hunted4

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Okay Gents, I'm not sure if this one has come about yet, but here goes.
Death Company suffer from "Black Rage" which means they have RAGE universal rule and they do NOT count as scoring units.
Death Company Dreadnought only has Rage universal rule.
As you have probably already figured out, CAN a DC Dred score for you as a Troop choice?
There is no excuse for defeat, victory needs none.




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