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BA 5th Edition FAQ - VII


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#26
OwlandMoonGuy

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Don’t you just love the smell of rule debates in the morning?

Early on I caught wind of an issue with the Blood Lance psychic power and whether or not targets after the first received any kind of cover save. As in, the Lance rule states, “Any enemy unit in the lance’s path suffers a single, Strength 8, AP1 hit with the ‘lance’ type.” Since it is a, “psychic shooting attack” it was argued that cover saves should apply based on intervening units.

Example: After successfully determining that the lance goes off effectively & distance is determined, the path runs through two squads of infantry, a tank and then a third squad which is hidden entirely behind the tank (what can I say? I rolled well). The first squad is hit without a cover save. Does then the second squad get a cover save because the Lance had to pass through the first squad? If the tank is partially obscured by both intervening squads does it also get a save? If the third squad is fully behind the tank, i.e. completely out of LoS from the Librarian, can it be hit at all?

I think I know the answer but I put it to the court of public opinion for their call.

-OMG

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#27
the jeske

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Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him

but you do understand that the way his I there are almost non units that strike before him and against armies without hoods[like DE] he is a jump pack moving str 10 force weapon swining dude ? and that he more or less solos other IC offten without them geting to strike him ? you would like to have a +4 inv [or maybe a storm shield] and FnP , then I think every chaos player will cry for pms having unmodified t5 and not 4(5).

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#28
OwlandMoonGuy

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As you have probably already figured out, CAN a DC Dred score for you as a Troop choice?

Hello hunted4, welcome to the forum & welcome to the B&C.

If you check the criteria for scoring units (BRB pg 90) you’ll find that vehicles can never be considered scoring. So your Troop/Dread is not disqualified due to Rage but because walkers are still vehicles.

-OMG

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#29
JamesI

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OMG. I'm not sure if the intent was to allow cover for targets after the first for Blood Lance, but the way the rule is written, I'm pretty sure cover saves are allowed. At least that's the way I've played it, and so far every cover save possible from Blood Lance has been passed.

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#30
OwlandMoonGuy

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Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him

but you do understand that the way his I there are almost non units that strike before him and against armies without hoods[like DE] he is a jump pack moving str 10 force weapon swining dude ? and that he more or less solos other IC offten without them geting to strike him ? you would like to have a +4 inv [or maybe a storm shield] and FnP , then I think every chaos player will cry for pms having unmodified t5 and not 4(5).

Is there a Frequently Asked Question here or is this material for a Tactical Mephiston (or lack thereof)?

Keeping off Topic: In any event he’s just a lousy risk. My hats off to people that are so enamored with him but I’d never take that risk personally.

OMG = Mephiston free since 2nd edition.

OMG. I'm not sure if the intent was to allow cover for targets after the first for Blood Lance, but the way the rule is written, I'm pretty sure cover saves are allowed. At least that's the way I've played it, and so far every cover save possible from Blood Lance has been passed.

So how do you account for units that shouldn’t be hit at all? Like my third squad in the example above. Ignore the lance hit altogether?

That would seem to be the only way to play it consistently.

-OMG

Edited by OwlandMoonGuy, 28 April 2010 - 01:33 PM.

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#31
Theikos

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Regarding the Lance and Cover saves:

James1: I feel your pain, every single cover save over 4 games now... the thing has yet to do anything to a vehicle.

OMG: The units that you can't see still suffer a hit based on the wording of the spell. They would get the 4+ cover save but the spell overrides the rules for LOS and eligible targets.

Theikos

#32
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OMG - LoS is prerequisite of targeting a primary unit. If the lance travels through that onto other guys/vehicles then, just as scattered blast markers, they will do damage to them.
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#33
Sanguinarian

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Power weapons that strike 1st due to higher Initiative (DE) and AP1 or AP2 spells doom for him

but you do understand that the way his I there are almost non units that strike before him and against armies without hoods[like DE] he is a jump pack moving str 10 force weapon swining dude ? and that he more or less solos other IC offten without them geting to strike him ? you would like to have a +4 inv [or maybe a storm shield] and FnP , then I think every chaos player will cry for pms having unmodified t5 and not 4(5).

Is there a Frequently Asked Question here or is this material for a Tactical Mephiston (or lack thereof)?

Keeping off Topic: In any event he’s just a lousy risk. My hats off to people that are so enamored with him but I’d never take that risk personally.

OMG = Mephiston free since 2nd edition.


My apologies. My exasperation toward Meph being all-powerful and nearly failing a 1-on-1 meta-phone-match with a DE Archaon should not have been in this thread. After reading it over a few times I can see why Wax responded the way he did. Water under bridge. Peace.

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#34
Sanguinarian

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OMG - LoS is prerequisite of targeting a primary unit. If the lance travels through that onto other guys/vehicles then, just as scattered blast markers, they will do damage to them.


With or without a cover save?
"Loose us on the heretics, traitors and daemon-lovers, but hide your faithful and participate not in the battle. For we have judged the whole of your people as weak and deserving only of the Emperor's wrath!!!" - Commander Michelangelis, Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood



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#35
Morticon

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I say def. with since theres nothing to indicate otherwise.
Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

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#36
Lord Arioch

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Hi dont know if this question is valid or if you already has posted it... But anyway here goes: Librarian uses Shield of Snguinius, grants everybody within 6" 5+ cover save ( i think it says cover otherwise my question is shoot in the head ) If it grants cover of 5+ do you get 4+ cover if you goe to ground after the libby has used the power???

#37
igotsmeakabob!!

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Hi dont know if this question is valid or if you already has posted it... But anyway here goes: Librarian uses Shield of Snguinius, grants everybody within 6" 5+ cover save ( i think it says cover otherwise my question is shoot in the head ) If it grants cover of 5+ do you get 4+ cover if you goe to ground after the libby has used the power???

Seeing as how the librarian is granting a cover save, and going to ground improves your cover save by 1.. yes.
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#38
shatter

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Yip. shield gives 5+ cover save. GtG improves cover save by 1.

I'm pretty sure blood lance hits are just like hits from a scattered blast weapon. Direction & LOS of the firer matters in determining cover save eligibility even out of sight, regardless hits happens.
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#39
Gunhead

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Example: After successfully determining that the lance goes off effectively & distance is determined, the path runs through two squads of infantry, a tank and then a third squad which is hidden entirely behind the tank (what can I say? I rolled well). The first squad is hit without a cover save. Does then the second squad get a cover save because the Lance had to pass through the first squad? If the tank is partially obscured by both intervening squads does it also get a save? If the third squad is fully behind the tank, i.e. completely out of LoS from the Librarian, can it be hit at all?


Personally, I would say you should recheck whether or not the unit gets a cover save after each unit and it should be checked as if the unit that was tested last was firing at the new target (Even if that unit was not hit by the power).

Example: You use Blood lance and it hits 3 units - a tank in the open, then a scout squad in a wood, then a devastator squad in the open.

The tank doesn't get a cover save, as it's obviously not obscured from the Librarian.

The scout squad would get a cover save, as if the tank had been shooting at it they would normally get a cover save from being in a wood.

The Devastator Squad would NOT get a cover save - if they had been shot at normally by the Scout squad they would not have a cover save, so same should apply to the lance.



Second Example: Slightly more complex.

You get a REALLY good roll on the distance and start at a Tank in a ruin, then it passes through a wood then a assault squad in close combat before ending at a tactical squad in the open.

The Tank gets a cover save - it's obscured by the ruin.

The Assault squad WOULD have got a cover save, because of the wood, but is not hit anyway because of the close combat.

The Tactical squad DOES NOT get a cover save. Not being in cover and having no cover between the assault squad and the squad = no cover save.

#40
MasterOfDisaster

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If I take assault marines and put them on foot in a drop pod, do they still benefit from the descent of the angels rule?
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#41
Somar

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dread=walker=vehicle...vehicles are never scoring units (BRB, PG 90)

edit: sorry, this is what happens when you dont realize that this thread has 2 pages...

Edited by Somar, 30 April 2010 - 01:45 AM.

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#42
Wax_Assassin

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If I take assault marines and put them on foot in a drop pod, do they still benefit from the descent of the angels rule?


No they do not.

#43
Morticon

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If I take assault marines and put them on foot in a drop pod, do they still benefit from the descent of the angels rule?


Its in the first three posts mate.
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#44
jimboi

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Lance Psychic Attack.

Why would any unit get a cover save for being behind another unit? It isnt as if you are peppering a squad with bullets, its an energy lance that travels in a straight line, it doesnt divert because it has passed through anything or deflect off a tanks hull armour,. It is pure psychic energy zooming accross the land, not stopping until it reaches the limit you rolled on the dice. So, IMHO, you cannot claim cover saves from being behind another unit against the lance. Thats how I play when i'm BA, and its how my opponents play when they are BA.
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#45
JamesI

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Lance Psychic Attack.

Why would any unit get a cover save for being behind another unit? It isnt as if you are peppering a squad with bullets, its an energy lance that travels in a straight line, it doesnt divert because it has passed through anything or deflect off a tanks hull armour,. It is pure psychic energy zooming accross the land, not stopping until it reaches the limit you rolled on the dice. So, IMHO, you cannot claim cover saves from being behind another unit against the lance. Thats how I play when i'm BA, and its how my opponents play when they are BA.

Its the same reason you get a cover save from a lascannon or railgun if they shoot through a unit. Its what the rules say. It may make sense the way you say, but the rules don't support that.

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#46
Morticon

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Lance Psychic Attack.

Why would any unit get a cover save for being behind another unit?


James covered it already - but to reiterate, its because the rules say so.

Rules pg21:

When are models in cover?
When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.
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"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

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"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#47
the jeske

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Its the same reason you get a cover save from a lascannon or railgun if they shoot through a unit. Its what the rules say. It may make sense the way you say, but the rules don't support that.

it is not the same because your targeting only one unit. the lance works more like a flamer or blast weapons . If a blast scaters in a such a way that it hits two units does the one further away get cover ?

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#48
Wax_Assassin

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If a blast scaters in a such a way that it hits two units does the one further away get cover ?


Yes.

#49
Aarkon

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Regarding the Lance and Cover saves:

James1: I feel your pain, every single cover save over 4 games now... the thing has yet to do anything to a vehicle.

OMG: The units that you can't see still suffer a hit based on the wording of the spell. They would get the 4+ cover save but the spell overrides the rules for LOS and eligible targets.

Theikos



However on page 62 of the BRB says "It may rarely happen that the firing unit cannot see any part of the facing they are in (front, side, or rear), but they can still see another facing of the target vehical. In this case they may take the shot against the facing they can see, but to represent such and extremely angled shot, the vehicle receives a 3+ cover save"

So how would this rule in the BRB affect the Lance shooting a tank the Librarian can't even see?

Edited by Aarkon, 01 May 2010 - 12:24 AM.

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#50
shatter

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That's a bit different. That rule is about direct firing on targets whose most oblique facing is actually without LOS while another side(/rear) of the vehicle does have LOS yet is (obviously) beyond 45 degrees... ergo the 'extremely angled shot' part. The fact that the rule book gives such occurrences a specific cover save value doesn't exclude the regular operation of cover saves.
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