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Vindicator used as AT


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#1
Deschenus Maximus

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With the predominance of cover protecting infantry from the worst of the vindi's predations, I was wondering how valid it might be to use the S10 to hunt enemy tanks in range. This would be say a secondary role when there is simply no good infantry targets for the big gun to demolish.

Anyone have experience to share in that regard?

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#2
Wildfire

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Are you asking if it's worthwhile to shoot at a vehicle if there are no infantry in sight? Well, sure. What else are you going to do with it?
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#3
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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I find it very useful against IG because there's normally enough of them so that they're somewhat tightly packed, so even if you miss the target, you'll still hit something.
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#4
Jakobus

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The biggest issue is the scatter, unless you are able to keep the hole on the tank it won't do too much. 1/6 chance to be a direct hit, otherwise you have to roll 6 or under on 2d6 for a hope to keep it on the hull.
Once it hits the Ordnance Vs Armour rule means you should have a better than average chance of penetrating the AV.

I would rather try pump it with accurate weapons and then have the Vindicator pie plate anyone disembarking.

#5
igotsmeakabob!!

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1/3 chance for a direct hit.
Vindicators are good for hunting heavy armor, what with ordnance rolling 2d6 and taking the higher for penetration.
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#6
Deschenus Maximus

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I guess I should have elaborated a bit.

I'm wondering if the AT capability in and of itself is enough to justifify the inclusion of the Vindi in competitive lists. The times I've used it in practice games didn't leave a positive impression as the heavy amount of cover simply made the vindi poor against the targeted infantry units. Having thought on those games, I'm realising perhaps I should have turned its fury towards enemy armour, and that might have been effective enough to make its points back.

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#7
ImperialReaper

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You should but not calculate this with only 1 Vindicator on the table in mind.
Vindicators should be use in numbers of 3 or 0 a friend of mine always says.
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#8
chainswordroland

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the vindi is pretty useful. i run all razorback/rhino lists and i use the vindicator to kinda support the rhinos while i sneak everything else up. just give it a job and it usually works out. normally i play against sisters and nids. it does pretty well, hasent been poped yet!!

#9
Noggmoritz

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Well, I run 2 Vindicators in my 1750 and 2000 pt lists and it has proven to be really effective vs Land Raiders. The chance of the center hole scattering off is pretty slim on such a large target, and the 2D6 pick-highest gives the S10 a solid swing at punching 14 AV. Smaller vehicles provide a little more difficulty, but I usually get pretty lucky and score "hit" rolls frequently. So in short, from my experience the vindicator is more than adequate for all types of AT roles.

#10
Deschenus Maximus

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Well, I run 2 Vindicators in my 1750 and 2000 pt lists and it has proven to be really effective vs Land Raiders. The chance of the center hole scattering off is pretty slim on such a large target, and the 2D6 pick-highest gives the S10 a solid swing at punching 14 AV. Smaller vehicles provide a little more difficulty, but I usually get pretty lucky and score "hit" rolls frequently. So in short, from my experience the vindicator is more than adequate for all types of AT roles.


Thank you, that's the kind of answer I was hoping for.

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#11
Ranwulf

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Vindicators are your hammers against everything, just be sure to bring more than one.

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#12
aekold

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I run 2 vindicators in my 1700 point deathwing and I regulary use them as anti-tank. This due to 3 reasons.
1. Most infantry is in cover, cutting the effect of vindicator blasts roughly in half.
2. Even when the hole isn't on the vehicle you are able to glance AV11 and with all the razorspam going on, a glance is all that you need to stop them from being effective.
3. 2D6 and pickking the highest is just to good to pass.

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#13
SamaNagol

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I swear by them. Statistically they are your best bet for popping heavy armour but if there's none on the table they also decimate infantry.

I dont see why cover being an issue for Vindicators makes it any worse of a choice than any other heavy weapon? The only thing that ignores cover is a Whirlwind.
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#14
JamesI

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I use 2 Vindicators.

Most of the time I prefer to fire at infantry, but I will target tanks with them.

One game, I fired a vindicator shell at a landraider (only tanks were within range). It scattered off and killed a rhino that was hidden behind the raider. The second vindicator killed the raider.

I wouldn't add a Vindicator purely for Anti-tank reasons. But they can work for that.

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#15
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#16
Dingareth

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1/3 chance for a direct hit.
Vindicators are good for hunting heavy armor, what with ordnance rolling 2d6 and taking the higher for penetration.


Actually it's a lot higher than that. Because of BS4, and the size of the tank you're shooting at, you're looking at 50% chance of a direct hit for a Rhino or Chimera when centered on the tank, and up to around 62% for a Land Raider sized tank or Valkyrie.

However, I wouldn't use them as they're taking up slots that could be used for Riflemen Dreads, who are much, much better at keeping tanks suppressed. Four chances to roll on the damage table ends up being a lot more effective than just one big shot.

GAH! I just saw this:

I'm wondering if the AT capability in and of itself is enough to justifify the inclusion of the Vindi in competitive lists. The times I've used it in practice games didn't leave a positive impression as the heavy amount of cover simply made the vindi poor against the targeted infantry units. Having thought on those games, I'm realising perhaps I should have turned its fury towards enemy armour, and that might have been effective enough to make its points back.


It doesn't matter if anything gets its points back now that the game is primarily about objectives. Victory Points were phased out for a reason. Also, a lot of units are about utility now. Is a Rhino ever going to earn its points back? No way. However, it may carry your Tactical Squad onto an objective that was 12 inches away, and win you the game. It could keep that same squad safe from the volley of Basilisks. It could form a wall between them and they 30 odd Orks charging up to them, holding them off for a turn while your Assault Squad jumps up and slaughters them all. So, please, as a favor to me, never, ever, ever, ever use the term "getting their points back" anymore. That is soooo, like, totally, 4th edition, duh.

Vindicators don't belong in competitive lists. There, I said it. It's about time someone around here did. It's got one gun, and we're paying more for it than any other army. Short range leads to quick Melta death, and armor 13 isn't going to save it against anything in the new Dark Eldar book. Go with Dreads, at least there you aren't paying for something that'll just be negated. Add in the fact that any result on the damage table is bad, as opposed to a Dread or Pread who don't need to be moving and have 2 or more weapon systems. It's not good against infantry in cover, (which as this is 5th edition, they will be), it's not good against MC's, and half the time it's got a shot at hurting a tank... Not good odds there. The only good thing about it is the fear factor it causes in other players. They're going to try and kill it, no questions asked. However, as you're asking about a competitive environment, I'm assuming GT's, where most people know the fail that is Vindicators. So they'll stun-lock it and move on until they can get into Melta range some time on turn 2 or 3.

In addition, if you actually get to fire your big nasty gun, you mustn't forget what army you're playing. Blood Angels! The army of Feel no Pain and Furious Charge. Raaarw, we're good at close combat, so want to get up into our enemy's faces! But, you may not want to get up there so quickly if you have to worry about friendly fire in the form or a S10 Ap2 large blast, right? Never a good idea to put your guys in a situation where they could be obliterated, which means you can't get into CC, which means you aren't knocking people off objectives and collecting Kill Points.

Lastly, they're expensive. 1 will run you 160 points, because you will buy extra armor for it. It can't afford to be stun-locked forever. So if like the masses here have suggested, you bring more than one, you're looking at between 300 and 500 points about. Good God, that's 2 Riflemen Dreads and 2 Baal Predators! It's also 2 full 10 man RaS's, or 3 Razorback squads with Assault Cannons and Meltaguns.

Edited by Dingareth, 15 October 2010 - 03:41 PM.

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#17
SamaNagol

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Their synergy with the other fast moving BA vehicles is superb. In a low points list of 1750 and under, their versatility is excellent, and the ability to move 12" and fire means they are a threat all over the board. And they are a considerable threat to Land Raiders, whilst Riflemen are not. I would also go as far to say that a TLAC Razorback is a far better investment over a Rifleman as you have a roughly equal chance of popping light armour, better chance of killing infantry with rending and on top of that a better chance of popping AV14 than a Twin Linked Lascannon does.

Static Riflemen dreads, in my opinion, do not mesh well with the hyper-mobility of the rest of the BA gun platforms and infantry. Same reason I don't use Devastators or Tactical Marines.

I'd much rather take a 5 man Razorback squad with TLAC and a Flamer for an extra 40 or so points over the HS Dread and be able to threaten most armour on the board whilst being scoring AND be able to redeploy up to 18".
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#18
lorider2

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I feel ours is overpriced, and it certainly has the many weakness people have stated above. However, its a powerful weapon that nothing else in our arsenal can match - outside of close combat. It can be used as AT, but I feel it is "not competitive" if that is all you are taking it for. 3 MM attack bikes would be more useful for one example. You take the vindi because expensive units out in the open could be wiped with one shot - easily earning its "points back." Of course, that might never happen.

#19
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i take it for killing termies and the like, but if its low on targets and theres a tank that cn destroy my vindi and a tactical squad with heavyblter and plas im gonna fire at the tank. it can take on anything reliably. depending on the situation at hand there isnt many circumstances where its shotsare wasted. saying that before it got fast mine only ever fired 1 shot, and tha killed like 5 gaunts and took a wound off a carnifex. now its fast its essientially a 36 inch range demmo cannon and is just :P i want a second but it will make my old metal one look pants...
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#20
Leonaides

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Actually Dingareth - I disagree with several points you make.

Vs DE - its a better choice than a LR of any variety, no worse than any kind of predator, and better than any other tank SM's have access to (Rhino/Whirlwind/Razorback). The only vehicle that any mariens have access to that doesnt lose out to DE lance weapons is a dreadnought - and most of them will be too slow to keep up with DE who can turbo boost 30" a turn if they want to.

Vindicators are safe from Melta's 'danger range' of 6" or 12" if you engage targets at the 18"-24" range. if you're more than 18" away, then no meltagun will even be able to fire at you. If you're getting your tank killed by melta before youve fired at least twice - you're doing it wrong. Thats not a deficiency in the tank though, thats poor tactics. Dont get closer till you have to, or need to provide an absolute fire magnet to save a more useful/tactically valuable unit. Thats a job that only a vindi can do. No other tank has such a threat level that destroying it when you get the chance is a no-brainer, adn if by sacrificing that vindi you save a rhino that can then move to an objective (to borrow your scenario), then you drive that vindi forward to take the fire.

I wouldnt bother with EA either - waste of points for something that only works on 1 in 6 damage results, which takes them down to 420 pts. Which is 2 tac squads territory. 3 Vindis or 2 tac squads - I like tac squads, and they work well for me, but I'd swap them in a heartbeat for 3 vindis.

Worrying about friednly fire from your vindi hitting your assaulters? If you really only have the on target and you're lining up a charge on it then dont fire your gun - use the turn to 18" reposition so you have more tarets to fire at next turn - scares the bejesus out of your enemy when something like a vindi does that, they start to think that they dont know what you're doingwhich makes them question their plans to see what they've missed. If you've lines up your charge right - that unit ought to win the fight without dropping a pie-plate on the enemy unit, if you havent, then you learn for next time.

Rifelman dreads - still dont really see what the fuss is with them -has someone done the mathhammer on 4 AC shots vs 1 Demolisher cannon shot? Meh, not that fussed actually. You prefer 4 S7 shots, I prefer 1 S10 shot with 2 chances to penetrate if it hits - surely that's got to equal 2 AC hits on its own there being +3S over an AC worth a 3rd potential hit - then the fear factor worth the 4th hit?

I frequently take 2 vindis and a baal or dakka pred, or 2 baals and a vindi. The threat, the all-round capability, the abilty to ID so many things that your enemy always has to modify his plans to accomodate the tank, gives you such a bonus in forcing your will on them... For me, they really do work well. Sure, sometimes the dice dont like you, but just as often as that - your first turn shot blows up his nice expensive unit and kills the hero.

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#21
SamaNagol

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I would even argue against NOT taking Extra Armour. Something that can potentially move 18" to contest, redeploy or Ram with a front armour of 13 is very useful even if it doesn't have a weapon it can use.

Oh and 2 Vindicators is A GODSEND against Ork Biker nobz
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#22
Dingareth

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Not that Blood Angels need any help with beating Orks...

And Leonaides, if you're shooting things that are 18 inches away, then you'd better make sure that you kill it- which may be hard hitting half the time. These days a Meltagun can hit things 28.5 inches away, let alone getting 2D6 penetration at 22.5 inches. The Rifleman trades a little bit of hitting power for extreme accuracy. Anyways, Melta is a much more reliable way of killing heavy army than a Demolisher Cannon. S10 is nothing to laugh at, but AP2 lets it down with only 1 chance to roll on the table. Nothing is more frustrating than sending a Demolisher shell at a Rhino only to see a 1 pop up. Melta adds some certainty to doing real damage, and allows you to pop heavy armor like a Demolisher, and Autocannons have the rate of fire to get multipul roles on the damage table, making them much more effective against low armor values.

So a mix of Meltas and Autocannons, with a few Lascannons thrown in to taste will knock tanks down much more reliably than a Vindicator could ever.
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#23
SamaNagol

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They 100% need help killing Biker Nobz unless your name is Mephiston.

And regardless, all those arguments you gave against Vindicators apply even more so to Lascannon which you then espouse as a good choice?
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#24
Dingareth

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I never once called the Lascannon good. It is extremly underwhelming this edition. That said, it has something the Vindicator doesn't- range and accuracy. A first turn volley from my Storm Raven sees a TL Lascannon and 4 Blood Strikes fly off at any fire Prisim, Hydra Battery, or Rifleman Dread for suppression purposes.

Also, if you're having trouble with Nob Bikerz, we've got an ace in the hole that's called Fear the Darkness. It's great for point sinks like Nob Bikers and tooled out Thunderwolves.
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