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Whirlies


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26 replies to this topic

#1
shatter

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Topic name and description says it all...

Why?
...Gladus, and my mitts.

#2
TheMouth

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because vindicators are cooler and come with pin-stripping and fuzzy dice.
BRING BACK VORTEX GRENADES!!!!!!!!!

#3
bulley

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I used to love WW when they were guess range, getting to rear armor etc .. but they just seem to be anti troop tanks on the cheap now, and I'd rather spend the points and get a baal (dakka version) and get up in some ones face.

Shame because I'd love to have a couple of WW sat as a battery at the back of the field. May still try em just to see what they are like in 5th.

#4
Wysten

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Because they do what marine lists are largely good at anyways, dealing with hordes. A preditor with two heavy bolters can do a simlar amount of damage and deal with transports very well too. For pretty much the same costs.

They are really good against hordes, but when your taking an allrounders list, probably want something that can deal with a few things fairly well, rather then one thing very well.

#5
Redfinger

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at the risk of sounding like a complete fool, what the hell is a whirlie? and a WW?

Ashton

#6
JamesI

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I used to love Whirlwinds. But its been years since I used them regularly. I find I don't need the indirect fire often, and most of the terrain I use doesn't block LOS entirely so they die easily.

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#7
BigBaals

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Because there are 5 other Heavy Support options that do the Whirlwind's job better.

#8
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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As much as I love Whirlwinds, when you also like Vindicators and TH/SS Termies in Redeemers, the whirlie birds are knocked out by their competition for Heavy Support. I'll occasionally build an army specifically to use them, but not often.
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#9
Arkio

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redeemers are a dedicated transport choice.



QUOTE (BrotherMoses @ Mar 9 2010, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dante: alright 1st squad will go north. Mephiston will go east alone.
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Mephiston: You are right, ofcourse sire. I will bring the fury of the father down upon them. *storms off*
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#10
Bracks0682

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I realy miss those minefields...

To be honest the Whirlwind is now an obsolete weapon.

Would be better as a Squadron..
To Hell and back kill the bad guy's and stop of at the drive thru...

#11
shatter

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3 whirlwinds, 270 points

2 vindies, 290 points
2 4ML 5 man devas 260 points
2 2xAuto-cannon dreads 260 points
3 dakka predators 300
1.5 Stormravens 300

Everyone seriously prefers all the other similar point options listed to Whirlwinds?
I multiplied it out to 3x to give easier comparison as points distribute easier... and I field 3. They have always killed more than their cost. Always.

I like my whirlies as my assault models are 2+/3++/5++ with FnP and therefore close to immune to them so I fearlessly place templates close. Danger close? Meh.
I like my whirlies because they will seldom fail to fire first turn even if they move. I like my whirlies for being able to select almost any target in the enemy list deployed to shoot at, so I can choose the softest.
I like my whirlies because at their max range, few heavy weapons are commonly fielded capable of killing them early game.. because they're seldom deployed inside an enemies (static) range.
I love my whirlies for getting extra scatter from no LOS paper targets and denying them a cover save. I love my whirlies when they pin units.
I love my whirlies for being strongest at the beginning of the game (ie, versus higher model counts) thereby creating a greater delta for kill ratio.
I love my whirlies because they force the enemy to move towards me.

I hate my whirlies because they can't damage anything with higher than 11 side armour (barrage)... but you can't have everything. Although direct fire into the arse is possible reducing fail targets to greater than 11 rear armour... which is a tiny list. I use HKs as well, but not the point.
I hate my whirlies for not being ap3 versus SM... But hey, at 90 points a pop, that'd be crazy.

Unrelated but something funny (and a little cruel) happened last night. Instead of assaulting a LR with termies inside, I surrounded it at a run (with my 14 man assault termie unit). The infantry behind it were pinned and it couldn't move next turn. It rammed and was immobilised by DoG. (woot!!). They couldn't disembark. Next turn, I charged the unit that was pinned behind and one beside it, both were pulled even closer to the LR further miring it. Boy, did he gnash his teeth. Killed essentially the rest of his army around it. With a great deal of apparent contempt, I backed off and let him disembark and charge my termies. The dice rolls felt his despair and obliged him with further contempt. Dead to a man.
When he later asked why I didn't assault it, I told him because he (was said to have) marked down a guy for sprtsmanship in a tourney for killing passengers via no escape. (We weren't playing in a tourney, I thought it was a horrible thing to do). calls of "Lol" and "you got served" and so forth.
...Gladus, and my mitts.

#12
Brother-Captain Devlonir

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I wouldnt play a Whirlwind on any game below 2000 points, unless when fighting unmechanized Hordes. Above 2k, there is always a good target for direct or barrage anti-infantry power, so playing a WW or 2 or 3 is pretty good option at the time.

I feel BA have good Anti-tank all over, so we need not use our HS slots for anti-tank that much.
I am considering boosting my 2000 list to a 2250 by adding 3 Whirlwinds and switching some other stuff around myself.
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#13
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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redeemers are a dedicated transport choice.


But I use 3 vinicators or 2 Redeemers for two termy squads
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#14
BigBaals

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3 whirlwinds, 270 points

2 vindies, 290 points
2 4ML 5 man devas 260 points
2 2xAuto-cannon dreads 260 points
3 dakka predators 300
1.5 Stormravens 300

Everyone seriously prefers all the other similar point options listed to Whirlwinds?



Personally I'd pick every single one of those options before I picked a Whirlwind. I use Baals for Anti-Horde.

#15
zebanash

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I remember the minefields being particularly effective for choke points, often causing severe damage against horde or even elite units if the dice didn't roll well. However now i just prefer my baals and my assault squads for anti horde. I like to reserve my heavy slots for Vindi's or Rifleman Dreads
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#16
Zeller

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What's great about is a whirlwind is when you place it down. Your opponent's Ork horde then has 2 inches between every model making your investment useless. So, I'll take direct fire weapons most of the time. If it fired more missiles per turn then maybe but until then I'd like some heavy support in my heavy support.

Personally, I'd say it makes a lot more sense to keep putting them on the right. Anyone who questions your decision is a Communist.

QUOTE (Ashdown @ Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 
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#17
bulley

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I think really if it was str6 rather than str4 / 5 - that way it would have some form of duality if desperation calls.

Back in 2nd early 3rd (before I quit) I'd guess to the back armor of tanks and flip 'em - and it could do it with some consistency, I'd run 2 back then in my old SW mech. Its a shame I gave them away as I wouldnt mind trying them, as I would like to give a proper in game opinion, but on paper, just being str5 isnt quite good enough, even for the points. For 60 points I could get a LS w/ HB and a Flamer which would deal with hordes well (obviously a bit easier to kill) but could get 3 for 180, opposed to the WW 2 for 170 - and I'd not have to worry about scatter (but then it should be firing off from turn 1, where a speeder may only get 2 or 3 turns of firing).

#18
Brother nathan

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take a rhino and razorback, remove its transport and give it rockets. thats a whirlwind. with the other options, they take turrets, armour frontal plating, heavier weapons, sponsons, etc. it may be cheap, but you get what you pay for. a vindi has far more bang for its buck than a whirlwind. its harder to kill, can seriously hurt anything in hte game, and due to being fast its range difference isnt as much an issue as it used to be...
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#19
shatter

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Vindies and whirlies are radically different animals. Vindicators hit hard and thoroughly but because of range, not until later game, should it survive. ie. They're a top target for anti-tank weapons that may achieve their kill before it shoots which is damn common... ie, people get 2 to use 1. Which kinda suggests that 290 points worth of vindicators is, by the time they get to shoot, just one gun. One (relatively) short range gun has fewer target options. Does it shoot a specific unit you want to hit with it? Unlikely as their threat range is a lot more avoidable than that of whirlies. Vindicators take the shot they can get. 3 Vindicators vs 3 whirlies is a poor comparison as the rest of your army just got gimped to pay for them.

Vindicators don't force the enemy to come to you. They force you to go to the enemy; vindicators are a spearhead unit, whirlies are support units. They just don't compare by role... ever have a vindicator scatter onto your own troops? Enjoy it? Of course not. One is therefore further reduced in targeting to minimize the chances.

Very different creatures.

Don't get me wrong, I like vindicator rules but they have remarkably little in common with whirlwinds despite the obvious similarity: Box with a pie-plate weapon on.
...Gladus, and my mitts.

#20
Crynn

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Because they do what marine lists are largely good at anyways, dealing with hordes. A preditor with two heavy bolters can do a simlar amount of damage and deal with transports very well too. For pretty much the same costs.

They are really good against hordes, but when your taking an allrounders list, probably want something that can deal with a few things fairly well, rather then one thing very well.



Because there are 5 other Heavy Support options that do the Whirlwind's job better.



3 whirlwinds, 270 points

2 vindies, 290 points
2 4ML 5 man devas 260 points
2 2xAuto-cannon dreads 260 points
3 dakka predators 300
1.5 Stormravens 300

Everyone seriously prefers all the other similar point options listed to Whirlwinds?



Personally I'd pick every single one of those options before I picked a Whirlwind. I use Baals for Anti-Horde.



What these guys said. There is no other Heavy support choice in the BA codex that performs so abismally as a WW. Least cost effective HS choice. unless you litterally only have orcs to fire at there is always a better choice and even then a dakka pred is almost the same cost, far more versatile and will do the WW's job as well if not better.

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#21
aeren

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What these guys said. There is no other Heavy support choice in the BA codex that performs so abismally as a WW. Least cost effective HS choice. unless you litterally only have orcs to fire at there is always a better choice and even then a dakka pred is almost the same cost, far more versatile and will do the WW's job as well if not better.


That, and the idea of using something nicknamed "whirlie" makes me cringe. The one time I have used them in 5th ed., they both sat on my table edge and killed maybe three necrons. My one vindicator killed the entire squad of immortals that had just rampaged through an assault squad in one turn, and toasted the better part of three objective sitting warrior squads in subsequent turns, all while drawing (and living through) a hail of fire that could have taken out my tranports and hamstrung me.

#22
Mezkh

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Whirlie is great, indirect rocks. Dakka preds are meh in comparison, good for killing maybe 2 models after cover saves. Poor against hordes

Edited by Mezkh, 11 November 2010 - 05:17 AM.


#23
Zeller

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Dakka pred rolls up and nukes a trukk. Boys are in the street now. Boys get hammered by the WW. Could be more useful in conjunction with another unit. Though that's hardly a surprise.

Personally, I'd say it makes a lot more sense to keep putting them on the right. Anyone who questions your decision is a Communist.

QUOTE (Ashdown @ Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 
You can play vanilla marines, however, it is a heavy burden to wield such shame.

 

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#24
Grey Mage

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To make back its points a whirlwind only has to kill six marines.

Its good at its job- infantry supression- and easily undercosted, by half, against hordes.

Since its ordnance it even has a good shot at killing light tanks- 2d6, pick the highest is great.

I dont go to a tournament without one, unless Im podding. They really are just that useful.

Not to mention- screw those High Command squads in cover, those eldar pathfinders, and that ork mob with a KFF Mekboy.... they all die anyways. Ignoring cover is a potent option in an edition where light armored mobs take alot of advantage from a 4++.
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#25
BrotherMoses

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My Brother Grey Mage brings the wisdom again. The machine spirit of the whirlwind is not to be doubted. When the Emperor's enemies huddle together in fear of His wrath the mighty Whirlwind shall cleanse them.

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