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DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks


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#1
syypher

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Been playing BA mech for quite some while and I've been wanting to "change it up" and play the same army but differently. Luckily for us we have the awesome opportunity to be able to do that with our Codex!

I've been researching and reading a bunch of DoA/Jump Infantry Deepstriking lists, tips, and advice from everywhere I can and absorbing as much as I could.

I would like to get some advice from any veteran or even new players out there that have any tips, tricks or advice for people like me who are just getting into the DoA jump list type armies. I'll add them to this original post so that way anyone who reads the thread can see all the tips in one go.


Firstly let's describe what DoA type list these tips/tricks are centered around. (Some of these tips of course can work with other hybrid DoA lists but keep in mind this is the description of the DoA genre we seek to encompass with this thread. - Thanks DV8 for this description.)

DoA stands for Descent of Angels. That is to say, the special rule that Blood Angels Jump Infantry get to take advantage of. So a DoA list is an army built PURELY of units that have the Descent of Angels rule.

Characters with Jump Packs (Dante, Sanguinary, Astorath, anything generic with a Jump Pack)
Sanguinary Guard
Priests with Jump Packs
Chaplains with Jump Packs
Death Company with Jump Packs
Assault Marines with Jump Packs
Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs

You get the picture. Not to put too fine a point on it, a DoA list has NOTHING that is not equipped with a jump pack. Which means you have no vehicles, and nothing stationary holding down the fort in your deployment zone. The army is pure aggression, and diluting it with "mechanized" units or stationary fire support or with armored support reduces that aggression, as already mentioned before.



Tips, Tricks & Advice:



1) (This advice came from Mekzh in one of the Army Lists posted here on B&C)

Consider making 1 unit of 10 Vanguard Vet's instead of 2x 5 model units.
There are lots of benefits for doing this:

a) You can combat squad after your reserve roll, so you'll essentially get both in and get both squads into assaults. (If you combat squad ofcourse..)

:D Regarding combat squading you can allocate models depending on situation.
Ex. Big Monstrous creature you want to kill, combat squad 2 PFs together. Want to bog down a fairly tough unit you'd rather not deal with so you can go wreck havoc on the rest of the army, put 4-5 SS VV's together. Something that's fairly deadly but has no invuls and is much weaker when charged? (Death Co.) Put all your PW's together.
And my favorite, you just drop them all as one giant sort of deathstar to multi-assault whatever you want!


2) Honour Guard make excellent tank poppers! They come in with 4 meltas since they can all equip one individually except the Noviate and destroy a Land Raider the turn they deep strike. You'll almost always land in range of your target. They also force your opponent into a tough situation on his/her shooting phase. They have FNP via Noviate that comes with them making them much more durable to small arms fire than a regular RAS. (Regular Assault Squad) They have t4 so the opponent might want to get rid of them faster and use his ap1/ap2/str8 shots at them so you don't go destroying more of his valuable mech vehicles. This then takes away those shots from your VVs or RAS or Librarians. Even better for you :)


3) Meltabombs on Vanguard Veterans. They can charge on the turn they come in...taking into account tip 1 and having a squad of 10 VV it will cost 50 pts for everyone to have Meltabombs. This isn't too bad at all considering u can assault the turn u DS. Say your fighting a heavy mech list @ 1,500 pts with 4 Razorbacks with Las/Plas, 3x Baal Predators, 3x Heavy Las Predators...(that's how I run my mech BA list :P) Your RAS will be dropping behind Predators of all kinds along with your HG to try to pop them on their squishy rear AV10. What are your VV doing? Nothing because your fighting an army full of mech transports and theres no infantry to really charge...happens a lot in 5e! So now instead of just standing around they have an opportunity to pop 2x Rhinos.

With a full DoA/DS squad at 1,500 pts my personal list has in anti-tank capabilities: 2x RAS with 2 Meltas each, 1x HG squad with 4 Meltas, a Librarian with Blood Lance, and a VV with meltabombs.

Without meltabombs, in a perfect scenario for explanation purposes, I destroy/wreck 3 vehicles. With meltabombs (50 pts) I destroy/wreck a possibility of 5 if I combat squad and 4 if I don't. I know you have Power Fists in your VV as well but this is just for additional anti-mech purposes if you really want to destroy/wreck vehicles for a fairly low cost. PF's wont' always hit a vehicle that moved over 6" and meltabombs can give you that extra kick to destroy vehicles for a fairly low price cost. (Remember you don't have to equip all your VV's with Meltabombs!)


4) (From Jorre @ B&C) Remember just because your building a DoA/DS army does not mean you ALWAYS have to DeepStrike! :) You can place your guys on the field to reduce the time to get into assault. DS'ing RAS or HG can assault at the earliest turn 3. Otherwise you can probably get a turn 2 assault in. To add to this, you would probably benefit from this in an army with not too many ap2/str8 weaponry or if you have quite a bit of terrain. Possibly Jump 12", run into cover with half of your squad (5 if your a 10 man RAS) , then next turn fly out to assault. You will have to take dangerous terrain tests but at least you get cover saves from things that will ignore your armor!


5) (From Shatter @ B&C) Attach your Sanguinary Priest to your 10man VV squad. (See tip 1) Once you make your reserve roll attach the priest to the VV squad that you don't plan to assault with. (Since priests will negate the Heroic Intervention provided by the VV. Instead plant it near your combat squadded VV half that has all the killing force and strike at s+1 i5. (Combat squad with PW/PFs/LCs etc.)


6) (From Shatter @ B&C) If your interested in using Dante you can attach him to a squad with a Priest so you can scatter accurately around your VV to provide them their bubble guaranteed! Or bring down the pain with your Meltas on rear armor of any vehicle you want to pop. :)


7) (A bunch of great tips from Redfinger @ B&C) "Keep your forces together! BA are very deadly in numbers, and for I combat squad almost all the time, so 5 man RAS's are very weak, be keeping everything together and focusing assaults you can quickly move from one unit to the next. I have broken it down this way for others, keep in mind I usally run 3-4 SS's in my VV's;

The VV hold up the army, they HI on things that will be the most deadly to you, if your faceing mech, then lets go tank hunting with PF's and Melta bombs, but their job is to stop the progression of the opposite army, momentum killers if you will...If my opponent bubble wraps his force, then my VV become the means to tie up the bubble, and if there are MC's and walkers, then the VV cna survive the combat with them. Think of the VV as your shield

The RAS are designed to come in numbers and provide the saturation of attacks needed for things to die, your get enough I5/S5 attacks and things die., however, because of my load out on them they are not the "finishers" they lack the punch to do so.

This is where the Sang Guard come in, 4 power weapons and a power fist, they are the finishers, they come in and finsih off the combat so that the VV and RAS are then freed up to move onto the next target...the trick with this is allocating the correct numbers of troops so that the assault ends on your opponents turn not yours...you should never be in cc for more than 2 rounds.

CC is where a jump army is safe, in they open they lack the cover provided by transports, but in CC they can not be targeted by your opponents shooting phase."


8) (Another great tip by Mezkh @ B&C) I especially liked this tip! Well first it answered my question :P but it's also something that would really help any new DoA players when trying to figure out that "right distance" to place your 1st unit when trying to roll for deepstrike. Here's an image I created with my mad photoshop skills to help explain how to deepstrike a Meltasquad and why.

First things to know:
-You need 6" range to get double dice for the penetration roll for a meltagun carried by RAS or HG.
-When you deepstrike you need to be 1" away from the vehicle, infantry, any enemy model or you suffer mishap.
-Quoted straight from Mezkh himself, "nothing risked, nothing gained."

Posted Image

The top half of the image is like this. The box is the tank...the circles are infantry bases. Green is good! :) Red is mishap :(

On the bottom half of the image it explains what Mezkh was talking about. If you place your NON-melta "marker" model 7" away from the vehicle the only way to mishap is to roll an arrow pointing directly towards the vehicle and then roll a 6 to move 6" directly at the vehicle. Low chance, worth taking a risk to get MM range and be safe any other way? Yes!

Now here's where the tip actually comes in. If you look at the 6" mark there is 1 model capable of getting into double dice MM range. That is how you put your models down. You have to circle around you initial model that landed but you put your MM closest to the vehicle. You can safely place 6 models around 1 model. So if your DS'ing 10 RAS with 2 MM then 1 MM goes at the outer ring closest to the vehicle and the 2nd MM starts the 2nd circle and is placed closest to the vehicle again.

Now if you place your first "marker" model for your deepstrike down 6" away instead of 7" you can easily get 3 Meltas in double dice melta range! But you also have a higher risk of a mishap...but that's if you roll an arrow directly at the vehicle and roll a 5+ on your d6. Still a pretty low chance... I like this tip! Safe, effective, deadly!


9) By a lot of people here at B&C the accepted drop range between an enemy to still get an assault with HI from a Vanguard Vet squad is around 4-5". I have actually tested this and it's fairly efficient. Same thing as the melta shooting range if you wrap your guys towards the enemy more if you scatter further one guy will be able to get the charge. That's all you need because the rest will be able to get at least close enough if you wrap them going outwards towards the enemy!


10) (Another great tip by DV8 @ B&C) How one takes objectives, especially one in your deployment/rear zone, with a DoA army? Well I've already answered in regards to rear objectives. I'll explain why.

A unit in a DoA army that is held back to "secure" an objective is a unit that isn't being played aggressively to harass/waylay/disrupt/kill the enemy. It's a jump infantry unit that you're paying a premium in points for to simply sit back and do nothing. Blood Angels DoA units have no long range (certainly almost nothing beyond 12"...heck half of my army has nothing more than a 6" range! Oh Nipple Wing), and lack numbers to weather and survive torrents of incoming fire. And again, splitting your army up to this degree dilutes the aggression of the army.

So what do you do? You either put your own objective as far forward as possible, or you ignore it, and take the enemy's objective. It's not about how many objectives you control at the end of the game. It's all about controlling just one more than your opponent. By blitzing forward and taking your opponent's objective, while at the same time denying him the opportunity and the ability to take yours (by any number of ways, all situational and impossible to postulate at this point), means that at the end of the game, you win because you control one objective (the one in your enemy's end zone) to your opponent's zero (because they were unable to score or contest theirs or yours).

If, in some situations you are unable to "not" focus on objectives (meaning a scenario where you pretty much HAVE to take and hold an objective), then what you can do is to bunch all the objectives close together. So doing means you don't need to spread your forces thin to contest multiple objectives to guarantee you have that "one-up" on your opponent. By grouping them all together you can keep your army close and hammer the opponent with everything, without fear of having to waste precious turns trying to contest distant objectives.

Remember: Annihilation is ALWAYS an objective.

-I like what DV8 has to say it and I agree with it 99.9% of the time! DoA is a very aggressive army, once you start playing defensive and camping home base objectives your just going to thin your force out and get shot to death. The best counter measure for this is to make sure your objectives is where you want to be already, in your opponents face...or at least near it.





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Well that's all for now...When I run across more stuff or learn more things I'll update this list. Please feel free to add to the post and I'll add it to the list as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by syypher, 16 December 2010 - 03:56 PM.

My DoA Tips and Tricks Thread: (compilation of advice from myself, members here at B&C and others)
DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks

#2
Wildfire

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You have some very good comments there. Nice job.
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#3
Jorre

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Some really good tips on VV there, can't wait to give them a try. Every time I read a thread on VV I just want to build a squad, but I only play 1000 point games and I don't think I could fit them in.

A helpful tip I have learnt with my somewhat limited experience is knowing when to not use doa. Eg sometimes deploying normally can be more helpfull. For a regular assault squad if you deep strike you cannot assault till turn 3 minimum, however if you deploy normally you can quite often get a 2nd turn assault

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#4
Gv0zD

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As others said, these are really good tips. I'm tempted to include VV into my army.

Tips 2 and 3 have increased my interest in building DoA list instead of mech list, that I was planning to build earlier.

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#5
syypher

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Some really good tips on VV there, can't wait to give them a try. Every time I read a thread on VV I just want to build a squad, but I only play 1000 point games and I don't think I could fit them in.

A helpful tip I have learnt with my somewhat limited experience is knowing when to not use doa. Eg sometimes deploying normally can be more helpfull. For a regular assault squad if you deep strike you cannot assault till turn 3 minimum, however if you deploy normally you can quite often get a 2nd turn assault


Very helpful!

Thanks guys for the comments ;)

@Jorre: Limited experience is experience! My mindset of building a DoA/DS list made me forget I can also normally place my marines on the board LOL! I guess I tunnel visioned a little too much with my list... >_< Tip Added!
My DoA Tips and Tricks Thread: (compilation of advice from myself, members here at B&C and others)
DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks

#6
shatter

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To expand on tip 1)
Having a jp priest in a list with 10 VVs lets one get all 11 models on one reserve roll. Priest must attach to one 5 man (that can't assault so shooty VV here), and other 5 man can assault with (when dice gods favor placement) FC & FnP. Makes sniping MEQ far more effective in that they are often less likely to be able to strike back as hard as I5 vs I4 is win.
If one is keen on Dante, attaching him with the priest's 5 man makes it scatter-less, melta better and the FC & FnP bubble is nearly guaranteed on the HI 5. Yes, it gets expensive, but if one is all about the DoA, it makes more sense.

edit:

Oops, forgot to mention what I do with my 14 man termie squad when I occasionally DS them. Yeah, 3 priests and a reclusiarch with a 10 man assault termie squad, 3 LC, 7 TH&SS. All the ICs have power weapons, so I can make some interesting mixes of 2 termie squads on one reserve roll.

Edited by shatter, 01 December 2010 - 07:03 AM.

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#7
JamesI

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Nice advice in there.

Just a reminder to please not use the abbreviations u and ur and the like. They are against B+C rules.

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#8
Jorre

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I appreciate getting all the credit for those tips but I only did point 4 ;P

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#9
Redfinger

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All good advice...It sounds like the 2k list I run is very similar to what has been suggested...I would only add the following to what has been given.

Keep your forces together! BA are very deadly in numbers, and for I combat squad almost all the time, so 5 man RAS's are very weak, be keeping everything together and focusing assaults you can quickly move from one unit to the next. I have broken it down this way for others, keep in mind I usally run 3-4 SS's in my VV's;

The VV hold up the army, they HI on things that will be the most deadly to you, if your faceing mech, then lets go tank hunting with PF's and Melta bombs, but their job is to stop the progression of the opposite army, momentum killers if you will...If my opponent bubble wraps his force, then my VV become the means to tie up the bubble, and if there are MC's and walkers, then the VV cna survive the combat with them. Think of the VV as your shield

The RAS are designed to come in numbers and provide the saturation of attacks needed for things to die, your get enough I5/S5 attacks and things die., however, because of my load out on them they are not the "finishers" they lack the punch to do so.

This is where the Sang Guard come in, 4 power weapons and a power fist, they are the finishers, they come in and finsih off the combat so that the VV and RAS are then freed up to move onto the next target...the trick with this is allocating the correct numbers of troops so that the assault ends on your opponents turn not yours...you should never be in cc for more than 2 rounds.

CC is where a jump army is safe, in they open they lack the cover provided by transports, but in CC they can not be targeted by your opponents shooting phase.

Good luck with your build!

Ashton

#10
Black Blow Fly

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Awesome to see all this enthusiasm for the army! :P They are lots of fun to play and quite competitive as well.

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#11
Darius Macab

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noobish question here, but for a DoA army do all of the components need to be jump packed or can there be other (deep striking) elements? ^_^

thanks

DM
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#12
Redfinger

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noobish question here, but for a DoA army do all of the components need to be jump packed or can there be other (deep striking) elements? :evil:

thanks

DM



Generally speaking in a DOA list you want to have all jump packs because that gives you the "decent of angles" role, speeders, and teleporting termies do not have it, meaning they scatter 2d6 and you cannot re-roll reserves. This is what makes DOA competative, you have a little more controll over placement, and timing.

Ashton

#13
syypher

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Main post edited! These are some awesome tips!

A question to any vet Jump/DS/DoA players out there...how far do you usually place a Anti-AV HG with 4 meltas from a tank you want to pop before you roll your deepstrike scatters? Where do you target your VV 10 or 5 man squad from a target you want to assault into in CC?

I'm guessing around 6" away from your targets so you don't mishap? What are other peoples thoughts?
My DoA Tips and Tricks Thread: (compilation of advice from myself, members here at B&C and others)
DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks

#14
Mezkh

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Well I think for a 5 man unit aiming for the broadside of a target if you want to almost guarantee no mishap fom being in 1", you place a model without a melta approx between 6-7" away from the target, and you can still get the two Meltaguns in the unit into Melta range if you have a no scatter roll by placing them in the two spots closest to the enemy vehicle.
Pretty handy for a combat squad derived from a standard Assault squad with 2 Meltas, and you only go wrong with a 6" scatter straight towards the vehicle.

If it's something like an Honour guard with more than 2 Meltas, you can place the priest down and you just have two Meltas with no extra dice for a safe drop. However I'm a 'nothing risked, nothing gained' type of player, and take on a bit of extra risk in my deepstrike gamble for the chance of a more winning outcome.

#15
syypher

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Well I think for a 5 man unit aiming for the broadside of a target if you want to almost guarantee no mishap fom being in 1", you place a model without a melta approx between 6-7" away from the target, and you can still get the two Meltaguns in the unit into Melta range if you have a no scatter roll by placing them in the two spots closest to the enemy vehicle.
Pretty handy for a combat squad derived from a standard Assault squad with 2 Meltas, and you only go wrong with a 6" scatter straight towards the vehicle.

If it's something like an Honour guard with more than 2 Meltas, you can place the priest down and you just have two Meltas with no extra dice for a safe drop. However I'm a 'nothing risked, nothing gained' type of player, and take on a bit of extra risk in my deepstrike gamble for the chance of a more winning outcome.


Loved that tip Mezkh! Added it to the post! :( You really know a lot about DS/DoA lists huh? You play one yourself? ;)
My DoA Tips and Tricks Thread: (compilation of advice from myself, members here at B&C and others)
DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks

#16
igotsmeakabob!!

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Any tips for fighting a SW player with that thrice-damned jump troop-killing power?
'Specially if he wraps it in a land raider redeemer?

Edited by igotsmeakabob!!, 02 December 2010 - 05:45 AM.

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#17
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Can he use psychic powers if the rune priest is embarked in a transport with no fire points?

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#18
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Great thread!

#19
JamesI

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as long as its not a shooting power, powers can be used inside Land Raiders. Same as our Shield from inside a raider.

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#20
igotsmeakabob!!

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Yeah, the storm power that makes all jump infantry, skimmers, etc move in dangerous terrain.
Not a shooting power, quite deadly.
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#21
JamesI

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Do people prefer DoA armies that are pure jump pack in reserve, or mix in a unit or 2 of stuff like snipers/devs/sternguard that can deploy on the board and offer some fire support?

I'm considering trying a pure 1850 DoA army (which basically means taking my normal army and dropping some tanks and adding more guys)

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#22
DV8

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Playing both Mechanized Space Wolves and Nipplewing (that's pure Sanguinary Guard, for you lay-people), Tempest's Wrath is balls out killer for your Jump Infantry and Deep Strikes, because the sheer amount of dice you'll be rolling for Dangerous Terrain every time you try to Deep Strike into play, move, or assault within that bubble means you will lose models to it.

What makes the power so deadly is it's range, and the fact that the Rune Priest can be tucked away inside a transport for safety and to increase it's range. A 24" bubble means that the Rune Priest, standing alone in the center of the battlefield, can use Tempest's Wrath to create a circle around himself that will cover the majority of a 4' by 4' table (barring the extreme corners), meaning there is nowhere you can hide from this because you have to get close to do any damage.

IIRC, having Invulnerable Saves or Feel No Pain (correct me of I'm wrong) mitigates the damage somewhat, as it provides you some manner of save, but to really minimize the impact of Tempest's Wrath, you need a manner of defense and offense.

A Librarian with a Psychic Hood gives you the opportunity to try and stop the power entirely, and/or taking Dante to oogy-boogy the Rune Priest drops him to 1 wound, so the first Perils of the Warp will instantly kill him. To counter it offensively, you need to first take out whatever transport he's hiding in. Limiting his mobility means that defensively, the Rune Priest will have to find some other means of keeping up with the army (unless it's static) and taking him out of the transport leaves him open to the rest of your shooting.

Using Vanguard Veterans with Heroic Intervention is a good trick too, Deep Striking right beside his transport, destroying it, and then charging him in the hopes that you will kill him before he can maximize usage of Tempest.

Whatever you do, remember that a large part of Tempest's Wrath is psychological. My friend and I played in a doubles tournament recently against a double Tau tag-team comprised entirely of Jump Suits. The fear of failing a Dangerous Test and losing wounds to their suits prevented the Tau players from playing aggressively and maximizing what they could do each turn, because they were so concerned with avoiding or remaining outside of the Tempest zone. So if you come up against it, if you can't stop the power specifically, go balls to the walls and tank whatever damage it inflicts upon you. If you roll poorly enough that you are losing more of your army to Dangerous Terrain tests than to enemy firepower/assaults, then perhaps this game is not one you were meant to win. :lol:


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#23
daboarder

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I dont think you take the dangerous terrain test when assaulting as they assualt like infantry, you can also choose to move like infantry in the movement phase and thereby not take the dangerous terrain test either.
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#24
DV8

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I dont think you take the dangerous terrain test when assaulting as they assualt like infantry, you can also choose to move like infantry in the movement phase and thereby not take the dangerous terrain test either.


I had typed up a long rant expounding logic and reasoning, quoting rules and pages and such forth, but in retrospection (and when I began typing out the counter-argument that supported your argument), I realized that commonly accepted play (everywhere I've been) has always been that Jump Infantry that choose to move as normal Infantry in the Movement phase bypass the Dangerous Terrain checks when entering Difficult Terrain, and similarly in the Assault Phase.

So I concede that point. But then Tempest's Wrath is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Blunt your movement. Hamper your units and your army. If you're choosing to walk up every turn instead of jumping around, it'll take you that much longer to reach the enemy. Is it worth it? I don't think so, but it's a valid situational tactic to counter Tempest's Wrath.

Either way, it's only a bandaid solution and doesn't help you in the long run (as you still have to close with the enemy, and choosing to "walk" instead of "fly around" makes you slower).

An interesting additional argument is, are Mephiston and any (Furioso) Librarians that use Wings of Sanguinius affected by Tempest? The rules state they move as if they had a Jump Pack (mentioning nothing about Jump Infantry), and the rulebook doesn't specifically cover Infantry units that have Jump Packs. I could argue this one either way...


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#25
Jorre

Jorre

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A use full tip I have come up with for countering Tempests wrath (only works if you have Dante in your army). I attach Dante to a 10 man Assault squad 2 meltas and priest. Use his precision deep striking to drop behind the rune priests transport and pop it. You will take a few wounds to Dangerous terrain and space wolf players will then assault you with everything they have in range, they love killing Dante. How ever if he survives you can use his hit and run ability to get out of combat and assault the rune priests squad. Obviously this isnt going to work if the space wolf player is playing defensively as Dante and his squad would be isolated against the whole space wolf army, but if your carefull about whats around you when you deep strike it can work.

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