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Epistolary? Worth it?


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25 replies to this topic

#1
Firbrand

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Hello,

I am new to the boards here, so far I've been reading alot about how to build a competitive BA army and I have a few questions to ask.

Quick background, I used to play 40k about 6-7 years ago as Eldar and just now started playing again and decided to go with a BA army.
My army does not consist of much right now and I am unsure what to add or what makes a good core for a BA army.

- I am currently thinking about having a Lib as HQ and I have seen many people do the same, but it would seem nobody bothers "upgrading" them to Epistolary, why? Would it be worth it?
- I think I will be running with 1 DC unit with JP and Lemartes, but again I am debating is Lemartes worth it VS. a regular Chaplain or Reclusiarch with JP?
- I have read alot of army lists and nobody ever uses Sang. Guards, why is that? Too expencive or easily replaced by a RAS?
- Alot of people run with some Attack Bikes with MM. Are they essential for a competitive BA army?

Thank you for helping me clear out these things.

#2
Brother nathan

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noone upgrades to epistolry because of points, and because we can use his powers in both players turns (so sheild and rage work well)
lemartes is well worth hspoints over a regular chappy. problem being he has a jump pack. the death cos packs are far too expensive. a regular chappy in a rhino is as good or better. cheaper if the squad is any size...
sanguard, are good wen playing to their strengths, but most thngs that kill marines stil kll thm as easily, ie plas melta and power weapons. they have to be played carefully to work well.
Attack bikes with multimelta, well some ba list struggle with anti tank, and theis is one of the best value ways to get it. being a bike it can move and fire, so essientially has a range of 36 inch, and melta of 24, snazzy... versitile and tough to boot...
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for they are the true storm and they shall not be denied! For the Emperor and Sanguinius they will fight!

#3
JamesI

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Episoltary is generally not worth it in my opinion.

Lemartes is a must in a jump pack DC unit. He is very worth it if you are already using jump pack DC.

Personally, I don't use Sanguinary Guard but that is mostly because I really like Vanguard instead.

Edited by JamesI, 15 December 2010 - 10:56 PM.

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#4
Demoulius

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well tbh ive tried the epistolary upgrade on a rage and blood sword liby and i must say hes a beast! that is until something hits back and turns him into paste :D lack of an invul save REALLY hurts...

and like Brother nathan said SoS (shield of sanguinius) and rage (unleash rage) work very well together. you dont need the upgrade for that :P

i havent used the DC nor the SG yet so cant really comment on those. but from my own gaming experience i can confirm that theyre defenitly not needed :unsure:

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#5
shatter

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If one doesn't have special characters, I think it's not terribad to go the often slightly cheaper TDA libby HQ route if one already has a termie hammer unit. Giving him a storm shield and epistolary upgrade lets him become quite the heavy hitter with sword and urage serves the squad (195). A TDA reclusiarch can give rerolls, but doesn't hit at str 10 or give a hood. (160).
Urage and BB/lance/Fotd/shackle aint bad for shooty+assault squads like HG, sternguard or tactical termies. Especially termies where shield is near pointless. Blood boil is pretty handy in such a squad for increasing outgoing damage complexity (with no armour save) and sometimes picking the target model. Die fist, die!

Anything with shield doesn't need epistolary unless one wants to have a power usage spare for using the force weapon which again suits a TDA unit's targets.
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#6
igotsmeakabob!!

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http://www.bolterand...howtopic=214684
http://www.bolterand...howtopic=211616

A couple threads on the same topic, they might help.
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#7
Justin2008

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Id take it cause think about it. By taking it you can use a psychci power such as rage in your turn yeah, and then use it as a force weapon as well. I take the upgrade in case i come across any IC i dont like lol. Think every army has 1

chaos - lord/sorcerer
necrons - lord
tau - battlesuit commander
space marines - countless lol
eldar - autarch, farseer, etc


So regardless what army ya go against, ya gonna have an oppertunity to use ya forcer weapon, plus many powers. That is unless ya get killed quickly lol

:lol:
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#8
Mezkh

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I can see a use for an Epistolary in Terminator armour + Storm shield, with a terminator escort.

Otherwise, not so much.

#9
ancient god

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Id take it cause think about it. By taking it you can use a psychci power such as rage in your turn yeah, and then use it as a force weapon as well. I take the upgrade in case i come across any IC i dont like lol. Think every army has 1

chaos - lord/sorcerer
necrons - lord
tau - battlesuit commander
space marines - countless lol
eldar - autarch, farseer, etc


So regardless what army ya go against, ya gonna have an oppertunity to use ya forcer weapon, plus many powers. That is unless ya get killed quickly lol

:lol:


You can still do that without the upgrade, just choose your powers accordingly and use them sensibly. That is, consider using the force weapon in the enemy's turn or simply use it instead of a squad boost when the situation calls for it. I think that 50 additional points to spend on your troops is more useful than always being able to use two powers a turn (when in reality you won't always be able to anyway).

#10
Ranwulf

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Mostly because Librarians are used with Shield of Sanguinius and some CC booster(such as Unleash Rage or Sanguinius Sword), or the Blood Lance. Because of that, we usually have one power to use every player turn. Epistolary, it seems good for those wanting a full CC specialist Librarian(which is one of the reasons Mephiston is powerful), or have a interest in destroying Mech(armored forces such as tanks) than engaging in CC.

Lemartes is a MUST have in a JP DC. First, he cannot be a target of your opponent attacks, since he is an upgrade(already making him an advantage), second, he can reroll both of his attacks to hit and to wound, while Reclusiarchs only reroll theirs to hit; third, when he get one wound, he is THE BEAST, so much I got him killing Mephiston in CC once(he got the Charge, obviously), so yeah, he is definitly worth the points if you use a JP Death Company.

Sanguinary Guard is a base breaker. Personally, I rather use Vanguard Veterans since they get a Storm Shield(as such, an Inv. Save), and S. Guard can't, making them rather fragile for a unit that should be used against other super units.

No, they are not. Attack Bikes are useful for their Toughness value, but in my opinion, I rather get a Land Speeder.

Ran
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#11
Justin2008

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But then again what if someone doesnt want to take the commonly known sheild and rage combo, what if they want say shackle soul and a booster power? Sticking the librarian in a squad will compensate for not having shield as you can kill off basic marines before him.

I know that im gonna go for the shackle soul power, with either rage or sword, depending on my mood at the time.

:D
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#12
Brother nathan

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true you can let the squad die, but when theres no squad left hat happens? and he can be picked out easier in cc if he only has a few alebiative wounds. keeping them alive forlonger definatley has its merrits...
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#13
Ranwulf

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But then again what if someone doesnt want to take the commonly known sheild and rage combo, what if they want say shackle soul and a booster power? Sticking the librarian in a squad will compensate for not having shield as you can kill off basic marines before him.

I know that im gonna go for the shackle soul power, with either rage or sword, depending on my mood at the time.

:D


IF I were to fight only thinking in Marines, I would not even use the Librarian, I would go for the Reclusiarch. But since we are fighting Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and sometimes Long Fangs, I would definitly get a Libarian with Shield to protect my troops from incoming fire. Sticking a Librarian in a squad does not compensate a shield, since it protects the squad from incoming range fire, not CC.

Ran
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#14
Demoulius

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Id take it cause think about it. By taking it you can use a psychci power such as rage in your turn yeah, and then use it as a force weapon as well. I take the upgrade in case i come across any IC i dont like lol. Think every army has 1

chaos - lord/sorcerer
necrons - lord
tau - battlesuit commander
space marines - countless lol
eldar - autarch, farseer, etc


So regardless what army ya go against, ya gonna have an oppertunity to use ya forcer weapon, plus many powers. That is unless ya get killed quickly lol

;)

tbh i use his normal attacks with rage to kill "normal" opponents and use the fist to take care of those pesky characters ;) only 1 faield save and theyre done for after all ;) and tbh when you liby can attack them they can hit back, which isent something you want without an invul save :D

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#15
Justin2008

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Well why dont ay just stick him in terminator armour, get a 2+save, 5+ invul and 2 psychic powers. I didnt literally mean use the guys as a shield, but come on, to be fair you need a lot of high AP guns (which majority are close range, or heavy and cant be moved and shot) so the marines have a high chance surviving. They have a 50% chance to pass a armour save so its not like they are gonna die easily.

Unless you have bad rolls lol ;)

But its just a thought, obviously the choice to use the esp upgrade or not is down to personal opinion lol ;)
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#16
Leksington

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- I have read alot of army lists and nobody ever uses Sang. Guards, why is that? Too expencive or easily replaced by a RAS?

Why aren't they in many lists? The real problem I find with SG is: if you put a DoA list together that has a good amount of VV and a squad of SG, you will often find that you are very thin on scoring units and/or total marine count.

There is a lot of unfair hatred of SG. They are a great unit and are a great value for their point cost. People that put SG and VV in the same category are either using the SG or the VV wrong. Since Heroic intervention is so useful on the drop in a DoA list, you are going to want some VV in your list.

So it isn't that VV, HG, or RAS do a good job replacing SG. It is that once you have filled your army's more basic/important needs, there usually isn't much room left.
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#17
Ranwulf

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Well why dont ay just stick him in terminator armour, get a 2+save, 5+ invul and 2 psychic powers. I didnt literally mean use the guys as a shield, but come on, to be fair you need a lot of high AP guns (which majority are close range, or heavy and cant be moved and shot) so the marines have a high chance surviving. They have a 50% chance to pass a armour save so its not like they are gonna die easily.

Unless you have bad rolls lol :D

But its just a thought, obviously the choice to use the esp upgrade or not is down to personal opinion lol :)


The Imperial Guard Executioner Leman Russ, Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons, Obliterators, all of them have AP weapons that can devastate a Marine Squad. And they are fairly common(actually, in Chaos Lists, Obliterators are a MUST have, so is the Executioner in a Guard Mech List), and you only get a 4+ Cover Save if you are in cover, which it's unlikely to get because of the CC ways of the Blood Angels, and seriously, you are going to make plenty of saves against those units.

And Terminator Armor don't allows you to go inside a Rhino.

Ran

Edited by Ranwulf, 16 December 2010 - 03:14 PM.

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#18
Black Blow Fly

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I use an Epistolary so I can cast Sword and Rage in the same round of close combat. Its very powerful when the Libby has a choppy HG attached.

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#19
Firbrand

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Thank alot to everyone for the great feedback.
I decided to buy a Libby in Termy armor and will try sticking him in a CC Termy squad with a SS and Epistolary upgrade for 195pts (expensive, but fun for play testing).

I dont mind spending on stuff I might not use in the future as long as I get to test it. In the end my army could get wiped, but if I think the army looks cool and that its fun to play, that's what matters.

Quick question:
- If you had the opportunity to make a BA army from scratch for a total of 1500pts. Name a unit or character which would absolutely be a must in that army. You will be facing Orks, Necrons, DE, Footdar, IG and most likely Space Wolves (scares me the most). If you want you can develop for each army.

#20
Mezkh

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ooooh could be anything really, that's a large list of varied opponents.

A Libby dread might be fearsome. Or a Vanguard unit could have some good targets.

#21
Firbrand

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Should I be worried about a Space Wolf army? From my understanding, they will beat me in CC but do not have the maneuverability of the BA. All of which to me is somewhat scary :)

#22
BOBMAKENZIE

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Should I be worried about a Space Wolf army? From my understanding, they will beat me in CC but do not have the maneuverability of the BA. All of which to me is somewhat scary :)


They'll beat you in close combat in a straight up fight sure. But thats what Priests, Red thirst and Getting the charge is all about. You gotta pop em one square in the jaw as you go in for your assault. Multiple units in multiple charges all at once. hold em, keep them from pulling more in to drag you down and support support support!
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#23
Firbrand

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They'll beat you in close combat in a straight up fight sure. But thats what Priests, Red thirst and Getting the charge is all about. You gotta pop em one square in the jaw as you go in for your assault. Multiple units in multiple charges all at once. hold em, keep them from pulling more in to drag you down and support support support!


So VS. Space Wolves you always need to go with lets say 2 squads vs. 1 in CC?

I would like to know as well: Which army/build gives you the most trouble AKA is your BANE with your favorite/optimal BA army list?

#24
BOBMAKENZIE

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So VS. Space Wolves you always need to go with lets say 2 squads vs. 1 in CC?

I would like to know as well: Which army/build gives you the most trouble AKA is your BANE with your favorite/optimal BA army list?


No not always 2v1. But you want an edge right? At minimum I would try and have like a 25% numbers advantage. Alternatively if you have FC then I think you could probably get away with a 1:1. Ideally you are getting 2-3 of his squads in combat at once because you want to pin him down and then try and sweep through. Wolves are great on the defensive but part of that is their squads can really give a punch when they are charged but then they start to need some more support. Basically think of it like this..when would you like to fight an assault marine? And if theres two or three assault marines around even if you know you can grind him down in combat you dont really want to let these other squads wallace in and start taking you out right?


Space wolf wise? Or in general?
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#25
Firbrand

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In general, out of everything you have faced, which army/comp is your bane?