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BA - How to Deathstar Terminators?


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#1
syypher

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I have had a box of Assault Terminators and a built Land Raider Redeemer for quite some time now and I have been thinking of making a BA Mech list that used them. I have never played a Mech BA army that used a "deathstar" type of units and usually only ran AV13/RB spam.

Since I've never done the CC version I was wondering if I could get some help in building a list or what are "core"units to throw in that are needed. Here are some of my questions, feel free to add any advice or tacticas on a BA LR Mech list apart from my questions please.

*Note: this is for a 2,500 list that I will want to be able to scale down to 2,000 as well.

1) Are Land Raider BA lists viable for an 'Ard Boys competitive environment? (2500 pts)
2) Out of all the Land Raider variants my favorite is the Redeemer with a MM. Reason being is because I want to assault, so I'm moving 12" forward anyways. PotMS let's me shoot my MM or Assault Cannon. Next turn I have Flamestorm Cannons to help my squad out. For an assaulty CC Mech BA list is this the best option?
3) How many Land Raiders should I run? I'm under the impression that 1 is not good enough and that I should probably run 2 at a time...is this right? Should I run 3? Seems like 3 will be too much in points already...
4) What should be in the Land Raider? Like I said up above I have a box of assault Terminators, so one of the Land Raiders will be housing that. What about the 2nd Raider? (Note: I have 10x DC that I could use for it but I also have no problem whatsoever purchasing another box of Assault Terminators if that's the better choice, so suggestions aren't limited to what I have!)
5) What force multiplers should I put with the Assault Terminators? For the DC it's pretty simple...either a chaplain or reclusiarch but for the Termies? If I do a Chaplain + Sang Priest is that starting to get too much points into one squad?
6) How many troop choices should I have and how should they be ran when I have Land Raiders on the field. It seems RB's with 5man RAS seems ok but for some reason it feels a little "less optimal" than an RB spam/AV 13 spam list...RAS w/ jump packs maybe? Tactical Squads? What is the best way to field troops in an LR list?
7) What else is best in our Codex to provide support for these guys? After you got the two deathstar CC Land Raider guys done what else do you use to fill up the rest of the points to support them? I'm thinking of filling all heavy slots with AC/Las Predators. Maybe 2 naked Baal Preds to screen some RBs or give more high AV targets? I LOVE the idea of a Honor Guard squad with 4 Meltas + Banner for +1A. Make the deathstar even more deathstary. MM Attack Bikes?


Thanks!
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#2
Redfinger

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Generally I would say no, BA does not do the LRC "rock" lists very well....reason being, support costs are so high...What I have been thinking of doing is building up a termy list w/ 2 LRC's and just running them as vanilla marines, painted as my DYI BA chapter.

Vanilla maines can buy the support options needed for those LRC's to get into postion at a much lower cost than BA, our armor is just to expensive.

Ashton

#3
shatter

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I've been running termies for ages and I have a record it would be tasteless to state.

I run a 14 man most of the time with no ride.

I don't think I can help you.... mix and match with mech. I run cheap fire support by way of 3 whirlies and scouts for troops.

Force multipliers are Sanguinor, Reclusiarch TDA, 3 Priest TDA (usually). Sometimes sang, libby, chapie, 3 priests.

I use the massive footprint of the termie squad to control table area. Played a fun game against an eldar biker listy thing. I advanced across the map from deployment at centre by moving and running them as a great stretched O shape (sanguinor in the middle). I placed them so there was no room for him to jump over them for his entire squad so he had to just assault them (front 2 priests lol sucker) and jammed himself up. So much for difference in speed. He massacred the two priests, I did thirty-something PW wounds back. Then I just sat them there while I pelted over them with the whirlies. Turns 4 and 5 he didn't get a go because of pinning.


So, I guess all I'm offering is some perspective on how too many points on a single unit isn't always so criminal... if you use it right. Which is your point 5. Priest and Reclusiarch... expensive with TDA. Sometimes, I think it's more sensible to take both without TDA if you have a ride. It allows one to find the odd window to split the priest off before combined assault to gain the potential for SAdvance or to leave him protected within the ride. After all, with the IC rules in assaults, being attached to the unit doesn't much hurt or help if he was gonna assault with 'em anyway.
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#4
syypher

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Hmm so Red says no to LR BA lists and Shatter uses them on foot.

Getting a feeling that LR lists aren't used very much with our Codex then...what do BA run around 2500 points for an Ard boys list then? AV 13 all around and just more Razorbacks? I would like to run a Mech BA list for Ard boys but am having a hard time filling out the points...

I can't put Termies in Razorbacks or Rhinos and DC in RB always get shot down since RB armor is like paper...How would one build a Mech BA assaulty list. All my lists so far have been run around pew pewing in an RB and AV13 wall but I feel this isn't how we should be played. Other armies can do it Mech defensive shooting better and I think we should combine CC + Mech to really shine. How would I do this but still have a Mech base at such high point levels...? >_<

Edited by syypher, 29 December 2010 - 04:50 PM.

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#5
breng77

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I've seen a 3 LR list used to good effect in a 2k game, by Alexander Fenell one of the British ETC team members. He was running

Mephison

2 X 5 TH/SS termies w/ LRR w/ MM

2 sanguinary priests

5 Man assault squad in a LR w/ MM

2x 5man Assault squad in TLLC Razorback.

Or something of the sort.

#6
bulley

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It is viable - certainly at 2500 (and 2000) where you can have plenty of support mech wise coming in with it.

At 2500 you could do quite a simple list like this:

Libby - w/ Rage/Shield
Libby - w/ Rage/Shield

x5 RAS w/ MG - AssCan Razor
x5 RAS w/ MG - AssCan Razor
x5 RAS w/ MG - AssCan Razor
x5 RAS w/ MG - AssCan Razor
x5 RAS w/ MG - LasPlas Razor
x5 RAS w/ MG - LasPlas Razor

x1 BAAL Predator w/ AssCan HB
x1 BAAL Predator w/ AssCan HB
x1 BAAL Predator w/ AssCan HB

x1 Predator w/ AutoLas
x1 Predator w/ AutoLas
x1 Predtaor w/ AutoHB

Thats something like 1995 off the top of my head.

From here you can do

x1 LRC or LRC
x5 Terms
x1 Sang Priest

This will come to around the 500 mark (240+50+200-210-225 - if you running all TH though I'd prob cut the SP, dont really need it).

Thats 13 total AV's on the table, 7 with AV13 fronting or higher. While a single land raider.

You can mix and match stuff or whatever, drop some points here and there - at 2500 its just another "logical" step in the mech as you've maxed out your standard spots (other than popping HG/Stern into razors in the HQ or Elite spots).

Just food for thought. If I ever played 2500 which would probably never happen, this is the list I'd bring (I have it ready at my side).

#7
syypher

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Thanks for the suggestions guys!

@Bulley: Having only 1 Land Raider will be viable? A lot of people suggest running them in pairs. I think they suggest it so the anti-AV weapons will be all directed at it but since BA can run spam AV13 maybe one will be ok for us?

What do you guys think? Spam AV13 + 1 LR sound good? Since the anti-av weapon vs LR's will also be needed against AV13 as well. Or duality of 2x LRs is best?

@Breng77: A 5 man RAS squad in a LR? That looks weird :)
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#8
breng77

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That was the list as best as I can recall, He may have had melta guns on the RAS. All I know is that he made it into the Final 4 at the Battle for Salvation GT with that list.

#9
Morticon

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I think its possible to make a nice hard hitting unit, though a "true death star" would be difficult.

I would consider the following:

7 Assault Terms -> 4 LC, 3 Hammers (295)
1 Priest -> Pwr Weapon (65)
1 Librarian -> Rage/Shield (100)
Redeemer -> Extra Armour (255)


Your looking at a crap load of points, but with 16 LC and 8 (WS5) Pwr Wpn init5 attacks that are rerollable to hit you're looking to put some serious hurt on almost anything!

Mathhammer vs. MEq you're looking at 10 wounds from the LCs alone and then 4 more from the Pwr Weapons. Thats before the hammers even go through.

Personally id have Corbs in the mix in there, not just an average priest. But otherwise, thats pretty much what you're looking for.
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#10
Black Blow Fly

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Here is the best setup:

Reclusiarch
Corbulo
5x term/2x pair of lightning claws & 3x TH/SS
Stormraven

G :D
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#11
breng77

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Good Deathstar but it would have to go in a Crusader not a redeemer (which only has a capacity of 12 models (6 termies))

#12
syypher

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Sounds good...would just 1 LR + the rest of the points with AV13 Preds and RBs viable? A lot of people keep telling me I need 2 at least if I want to run Land Raiders... Yay or nay?

Once I get a general consensus I can finalize my list. I wouldn't mind doing just 1 LR but if more people keep telling me 2x then so be it..

Edited by syypher, 29 December 2010 - 08:23 PM.

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#13
Black Blow Fly

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The beauty of the Stormraven is it can get to places quickly not accessible by an landraider. Probably you are planning to use the deathstar as a reactionary unit and feel the LR chassis provides better protection. If you are running a mech/razorspam list the Stormraven actually integrates better in this role.

G :)
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#14
bulley

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1 of anything will always be a "problem" in a sense - 1 pot shot from a lascannon or lance weap at range could imob it and put a real crimp in your day. Obviously you can try and protect it with a bit of LOS - libbys shield etc.. (also Libby w/ URage + Shield always better for mech anyway).

I ran a single LR at 1500 it got imob'd a couple of times, but also did a lot of damage at others.

At 2500 - you can put so many chasis's into that army that if they do put the "statistical" ammount of long range fire into that LR to get rid of it / stop it, more than likely your other stuff is going to be able to return fire anyway.

Any list w/ a raider + terms will be classified a "rock" list really - that triple raider list w/ meph is the ultimate example of that. It decks certain lists (sissors for E.G) but gets carpeted by the paper lists, and just knocks heads with other rock lists etc... but believe you me, its a lot of fun to play lol.

There are various ways to play it, I've seen guys have success as using it as a defensive force, sit on or a near a "home" or middle ground objective and you have a AV14 + x5 TH terms to shift to be able to take claim to 1 or 2 key objectives - not easy.

I love using LR's - absolutely love it, at 1500 (have to play this grr...) I feel I just use up way to many points and cant get any of the other stuff I want properly (or have to sacrifce troops which I dont like doing) but with 2500 to play with, I'd say why not!

#15
Brother nathan

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if you have enough armour, and alot of it is armour 13 then a single raider should work. thing is withthe likes of the redeemer, the weapons arnt grat combinatons on it. flamers are short ranged and hard to get bth on a unit. and you have to choose whatweapons you use. Whereas the crusader you can fire all, less worries abou the templates just need sight. and you can move 12 inches and fire both sponsons and the assault cannon, and use potms to fire the multi melta at a nearby tank. and it can carry more models... and assault squads get a discount on raiders so id think about them...
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#16
syypher

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The beauty of the Stormraven is it can get to places quickly not accessible by an landraider. Probably you are planning to use the deathstar as a reactionary unit and feel the LR chassis provides better protection. If you are running a mech/razorspam list the Stormraven actually integrates better in this role.


I don't want to use the Stormraven primarily because I want to max out my HS with Predators and they take the same slot. I also don't like that they are AV12. If they had scout so I could move them flat out and gain a save 4+ early then I probably wouldn't be as hesitant to play them. (I have converted models and have tried them but they always die so fast)

At 2500 - you can put so many chasis's into that army that if they do put the "statistical" ammount of long range fire into that LR to get rid of it / stop it, more than likely your other stuff is going to be able to return fire anyway.


Ya this is why I am thinking that a single raider can work.


if you have enough armour, and alot of it is armour 13 then a single raider should work. thing is withthe likes of the redeemer, the weapons arnt grat combinatons on it. flamers are short ranged and hard to get bth on a unit. and you have to choose whatweapons you use. Whereas the crusader you can fire all, less worries abou the templates just need sight. and you can move 12 inches and fire both sponsons and the assault cannon, and use potms to fire the multi melta at a nearby tank. and it can carry more models... and assault squads get a discount on raiders so id think about them...


They want to come close they have to deal with it's scary Flamers. But I think that the Crusader is for sure the best choice. Why is it I can move 12" and fire both sponsoons and the Assault Cannon? It's not a fast vehicle. Am I missing something? Sorry >_<
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#17
Black Blow Fly

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One of the great things about the BA codex is you can take landraider as a dedicated transport for just about any unit that doesn't have jump packs and that is definitely something worth taking advantage of for the type of list you are designing - I understand your intent and appreciate that approach. Something nice about having one landraider in this type of list is that its fairly easy to bury inside your other vehicles for protection from red hot melta death.

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#18
breng77

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Why is it I can move 12" and fire both sponsoons and the Assault Cannon? It's not a fast vehicle. Am I missing something? Sorry >_<


Power of the Machine Spirit + Defensive weapons. Machine spirit lets you fire the assault cannon (1 extra weapon), Hurricane bolters are S 4 so they count as defensive and can always fire.

#19
JamesI

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Unless I'm wrong, a Land Raider Crusader can't move 12 inches and still fire the sponsons. Its not a fast vehicle and POTMS will only allow one weapon to fire. I know in the original LRC rules way back in Codex Armageddon it was legal to fire them at moving 12 inches, but not now.

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#20
syypher

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Unless I'm wrong, a Land Raider Crusader can't move 12 inches and still fire the sponsons. Its not a fast vehicle and POTMS will only allow one weapon to fire. I know in the original LRC rules way back in Codex Armageddon it was legal to fire them at moving 12 inches, but not now.


That's what I thought too. I can do it only at 6" I believe.

Anyways, I think that going 1 LR with AV13 spam of Preds will be great. 2 Baals + 3 Heavy Preds.


Now...In a single LR:Crusader list w/ AV13 Pred spam do you think 10 RAS w/o JPs for the discount or 5 Termies in the LR?
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#21
breng77

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No you are correct, what I was thinking about is that it could move 6 and Fire all of its weapons (including a multi-melta if you upgraded to one)

#22
shatter

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With a pure mech list containing a LR, a lot of the 'pairs' rationale goes by the wayside.
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#23
Zid

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A fun deathstar I like to run in a lot of games that really puts the hurt down is the following:

- Libby - TA, SS, Rage/Sword - 145 pts
- Sang Priest - TA - 85 pts
- 5x AT's - 2x claw/3x SS - 215 pts
- LRC - MM/EA - 275 pts

Yes, its a hefty points investment. But whatever it touches dies. Reason I do TA on the priest and libby is it makes my opponent think about what to swing where more than if they're in PA. Too often I lose my libby to power weps or my priest gets 1 shot by a PW; least now I have a chance. Also, having rerolls or a str 10 guy is a real boon combined with the pure killiness of the termis. I like sword because it makes it that much easier to pop dreads, a land raider, or what have you. Rage is used 90% of the time, mind you, but swords nice for that psychological effect :D Most people don't like chancing their IC's when you have a str 10 guy attacking at I5 lol

#24
Morticon

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Forgot about the redeemers capacity.

Yeah, you're only looking at 5 terms + 2 Power Armour models - its not quite as hardcore, so id consider the Crusader.
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#25
BOBMAKENZIE

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I've been running termies for ages and I have a record it would be tasteless to state.


2W-28L-3T? :mellow:

Hmm so Red says no to LR BA lists and Shatter uses them on foot.


And I demand all land raiders! Theres something truely special about cruising about with 3+ Raiders in a list <3 The only thing you have to worry about is melta and even then abit of cleverness protects you for the most part.
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