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Reclusiarch vs librarian


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21 replies to this topic

#1
ashen

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Heya all,

I've been running a libby with blood lance and shield in blood angels, but I have been unimpressed with his performance in many situations so I was thinking of switching to a reclusiarch. I was going to simply try mephiston, but I think I would get a bit hammered in comp here in oz in the tourney scene.
Just so people know, I run a mostly DoA list with 3 assault squads with meltas and fists, sang guard, 5 VV with fist, a priest with power weap, furiso with talons in DP and a Baal with flamestorm cannon.
Anyways, thoughts on their effectiveness compared to a libby would be appreciated.

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Ashen
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#2
SamaNagol

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Try running the Librarian with Unleash Rage and Shield. Put him with the Sang Guard and the Priest.

I'd also suggest dropping the Furioso and adding 2 more Priests with Packs to your Assault Squads. The Dread, I imagine, gets slagged every game as soon as he touches the table top seeing as he can't assault when he arrives
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#3
shatter

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frack comp. And aye, get more priests.

Seriously, play for fun.

But yeah, reclusiarchs are pretty strong.... but so are libbies. I don't like lance much though. It's not bad when it's spammed, ie a shootier list. But it aint reliable or dramatic enough for what you're fielding i feel. Powers like Urage are dramatic and are more reliably effected. Fear of the Darkness is also very dramatic, but unreliable in usage with the list you have. Ie, you might get to try it only once or twice in a game as he'll have up to 25% of your army attached to him and if it works, they wont (most likely) be able to charge.
Another solid middle ground power that suits being with a RAS and SG is Blood boil. It's highly underrated. It can save a couple of models though. It's quite reliable in that it will often cause some effect, and it's targeting of specific models can mean the assault phase is more dramatically resolved in your favour. It can help your PA and artificer armour troops survive versus their meat and potato targets which really should be stuff that the unit's are designed to bully. Ie. your troops will be more resilient (if the enemy pw/fist model gets it) yet still able to enter CC by not over shooting/killing (remember, not all models need fire their pistols, or indeed any). Pfist guys tend to be at the back of the squad.

Reclusiarch instead of a libby means you lose the utility of a libby and it's hood, of course, but you gain a model that's up to 3 times as resilient to high AP fire and has a solid and reliable set of skills that are easily effected.
I love my reclusiarch and he sees every game. Mind you, I run a lot of terminators & priests combined into one squad.
There's little more frustrating to my opponents should they actually kill all the priests and I still have a hellova lot tougher IC to kill. There's a bit of pan codex jealousy over them to be frank... and initiative 5(6) is fricken awesome vs SM armies and many SCs of others.
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#4
Gv0zD

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shatter has a good point.
Libby is a great unit imho, particularly due to his Urage and Shield powers. Blood Lance can be useful though, but as helpful as Urage. I'm totally agree with shatter regarding Blood Boil. Libby is weaker in HtH compared to Reclusiarch, and with Litanies the latter is indeed a poweful addition to your CC units (especially DC).
If you ask my personal opinion, I'd suggest keep the Libby - I run mine with HG with Shield and Urage, which I find useful enough, to compensate for the lack of combat resilience. I also want try Reclusiarch, but run him with DC in order to get my small deathstar unit :D

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#5
JamesI

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Both are great HQs. I've been debating this myself lately for a new no Astorath list.

In the end I chose the Reclusiarch. Mainly because I like my Reclusiarch model better honestly.

Another important factor is that very simple 5 initiative. I love my character going before the rest of the guys to avoid wound allocation games sucking up his hits onto 1-2 guys. Getting I6 on the charge his huge, the extra attack and the 4+ invul don't hurt. Also yesterday (I was playing small games so I used the cheaper libby) I had horrible luck with the librarian, either getting shut down to Shadows of the Warp, or just rolling bad and even losing my last wound against DE to perils (though his shield power kept me on the table for a couple turns).

But were I to take my list to a tournament and not friendly play, I'd probably swap in the Librarian for the hood.

As this is a question that comes up alot, I'm going to add it to the "BA resources thread".

Edited by JamesI, 25 January 2011 - 12:22 PM.

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#6
ulllyssies0110

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I run a DC so Reclusiarch is the way to go for me. One thing to remember is that Libbies are great for support of Units like Sang Guard or VV and the like. I would also use Priest.
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#7
SamaNagol

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In the end I chose the Reclusiarch. Mainly because I like my Reclusiarch model better honestly.

Another important factor is that very simple 5 initiative. I love my character going before the rest of the guys to avoid wound allocation games sucking up his hits onto 1-2 guys. Getting I6 on the charge his huge, the extra attack and the 4+ invul don't hurt.


Reclusiarchs shouldnt be getting I6 on the charge, nor do they re-roll to wound rolls on the charge.
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#8
ulllyssies0110

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In the end I chose the Reclusiarch. Mainly because I like my Reclusiarch model better honestly.

Another important factor is that very simple 5 initiative. I love my character going before the rest of the guys to avoid wound allocation games sucking up his hits onto 1-2 guys. Getting I6 on the charge his huge, the extra attack and the 4+ invul don't hurt.


Reclusiarchs shouldnt be getting I6 on the charge, nor do they re-roll to wound rolls on the charge.

He would if there was a Priest with in 6 of him but no rerolls
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#9
Seahawk

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Honestly, I have not used a single generic librarian, ever, since the BA codex came out. Their stat-line and options are just too terrible to bother using. Mephiston, on the other hand...

But then, I almost always use a captain. Join the Cap, Reclusiarch, and a priest to an assault squad and they wipe the floor with everything MEQ, except hammernators maybe.

A Reclusiarch just gives so much more local support to my units, without having to rely on a psychic test. When comparing to a librarian, you get +1 BS, W, I, A, a 4+ inv, and the equivalent of Epistolary, all for a mere 30 more points. I say Epistolary equivalent because he has two "powers" he's giving to his unit (librarian requires Episto to cast two powers) that don't require a test, can't be nullified, and he doesn't pay for.

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#10
Brother_Byhlli

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I want to point out that Librarian's are not as weak in combat as many suggest.

Against a squad, then you're not going to win anything on your own. But with Unleash Rage providing rerolls to hit on every turn of combat, rather than just on the turn you charge, a Librarian in a squad can cause a bunch more damage than the Chaplain.

But, more importantly, any Independent Character that comes up against the Librarian is looking at having his soul sucked into the Warp. I haven't played a huge number of games, but already my Librarian has soul-sucked two Ork Warbosses. That's a skill worth paying for.

My take on Chaplains and Reclusiarchs is that there is absolutely no better option to put into the Death Company. This is something Lemartes is particularly good at, obviously.

I may have a shot running a Reclusiarch in my next game - see if I can figure out what all the fuss is about!
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#11
Brother_Byhlli

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Honestly, I have not used a single generic librarian, ever, since the BA codex came out. Their stat-line and options are just too terrible to bother using. Mephiston, on the other hand...


I disagree entirely. Four attacks on the charge at Strength 5, ignoring armour saves and if any one of them causes a wound - just one single wound - then you have an 11/12 chance of killing the model outright, regardless of its Wound or Toughness stats.

The Reclusiarch is significantly less spectacular than the Librarian. He's arguably more dependable, more reliable and more solid, but he doesn't have the same capacity for pure destruction that the Librarian has.

But then, I almost always use a captain. Join the Cap, Reclusiarch, and a priest to an assault squad and they wipe the floor with everything MEQ, except hammernators maybe.


You just made a 600 point unit. Of course they're going to win fights against units of MEQ.

A Reclusiarch just gives so much more local support to my units, without having to rely on a psychic test. When comparing to a librarian, you get +1 BS, W, I, A, a 4+ inv, and the equivalent of Epistolary, all for a mere 30 more points. I say Epistolary equivalent because he has two "powers" he's giving to his unit (librarian requires Episto to cast two powers) that don't require a test, can't be nullified, and he doesn't pay for.


He does pay for his powers. Nothing in the game is free. If he didn't have those powers, he'd be cheaper.

His two powers, though, are extremely specific. There's little about the Reclusiarch that isn't focused entirely on combat.

I maintain that the Reclusiarch/Chaplain/Astorath/Lemartes are best used in the Death Company, and probably best swapped for a Librarian if there's not Death Company in your army.
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#12
Morticon

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I maintain that the Reclusiarch/Chaplain/Astorath/Lemartes are best used in the Death Company, and probably best swapped for a Librarian if there's not Death Company in your army.



This man speaks the truth!!
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#13
JamesI

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In the end I chose the Reclusiarch. Mainly because I like my Reclusiarch model better honestly.

Another important factor is that very simple 5 initiative. I love my character going before the rest of the guys to avoid wound allocation games sucking up his hits onto 1-2 guys. Getting I6 on the charge his huge, the extra attack and the 4+ invul don't hurt.


Reclusiarchs shouldnt be getting I6 on the charge, nor do they re-roll to wound rolls on the charge.

My Reclusiarchs don't go with DC, DC get a regular chaplain since that way the chaplain is usually I4 on the charge and the squad I5. They go with other squads and have a priest nearby. So they are I6 on the charge.

I maintain that the Reclusiarch/Chaplain/Astorath/Lemartes are best used in the Death Company, and probably best swapped for a Librarian if there's not Death Company in your army.



This man speaks the truth!!

I can't agree. Other than Lemartes, the others work fine without DC in a list. Librarians are good, but there are reasons to pick reclusiarchs/Astorath/Chaplains. Now, if I was running a Reclusiarch/Astorath as my first HQ, I would usually take a Librarian as the second. Librarians are good to have, but the better stats of the Reclusiarch make him worth considering too.

Edited by JamesI, 08 July 2011 - 01:45 AM.

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#14
Morollan

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In the end I chose the Reclusiarch. Mainly because I like my Reclusiarch model better honestly.

Another important factor is that very simple 5 initiative. I love my character going before the rest of the guys to avoid wound allocation games sucking up his hits onto 1-2 guys. Getting I6 on the charge his huge, the extra attack and the 4+ invul don't hurt.


Reclusiarchs shouldnt be getting I6 on the charge, nor do they re-roll to wound rolls on the charge.


Oops! I've been playing it wrong for a while :blush:

The Furious Charge thing is simply my mistake, I hadn't realise that the Chaplain/Reclusiarch doesn't benefit from this. To be fair however, on the rerolling wounds issue, the wording of Liturgies of Blood in the Chaplain entry of the codex is slightly ambiguous and really not helped by the wording of the same rule in the Lemartes entry. It's only really when you read the same rule under Astorath's entry that you get the idea properly. One rule, three different wordings. That's so GW!

#15
Morticon

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I can't agree. Other than Lemartes, the others work fine without DC in a list. Librarians are good, but there are reasons to pick reclusiarchs/Astorath/Chaplains. Now, if I was running a Reclusiarch/Astorath as my first HQ, I would usually take a Librarian as the second. Librarians are good to have, but the better stats of the Reclusiarch make him worth considering too.


May just be semantics, but I think he said Chappies "work best with DC in the list".
Im in 100% agreement with you that they "work fine" without.
But, if I didnt have a DC and I had to choose two of a Libby and Chappy, id choose the libby for both slots.
If i had space id rock a libby and Chappy in a DC list though.
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#16
JamesI

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I can't agree. Other than Lemartes, the others work fine without DC in a list. Librarians are good, but there are reasons to pick reclusiarchs/Astorath/Chaplains. Now, if I was running a Reclusiarch/Astorath as my first HQ, I would usually take a Librarian as the second. Librarians are good to have, but the better stats of the Reclusiarch make him worth considering too.


May just be semantics, but I think he said Chappies "work best with DC in the list".
Im in 100% agreement with you that they "work fine" without.
But, if I didnt have a DC and I had to choose two of a Libby and Chappy, id choose the libby for both slots.
If i had space id rock a libby and Chappy in a DC list though.

I take his statement as a much more definitive. Saying "probably best swapped for a librarian if no DC in the list" I can't always agree with.

I guess my point is that there is no reason to have to chose 2 Librarians. Astorath/Reclusiarch/Chaplain and a Librarian work fine as a team in either a non-DC or DC list.

Edited by JamesI, 08 July 2011 - 10:43 AM.

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#17
Brother_Byhlli

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I want to clarify that while I would take the Librarian every time as my first HQ choice in a list with no Death Company, if I was taking a second HQ I'd be exceptionally hard-put to not take the Reclusiarch.

Of all the HQs we have - including the unique, named characters, the Reclusiarch is my favourite in terms of fluff, rules and models. And, interestingly, of the non-named HQs, Librarians feel worst to me. My feeling, though, is that my personal taste should be put aside in favour of table-top effectiveness and I just think that Librarians offer greater support to an army than Reclusiarchs.

Reclusiarchs, I think, are very, very powerful in combat. But I tend to think they're limited in other areas. Librarians give you a better all-round HQ. This is all just my opinion, of course. Could be my thoughts will change after I run the Reclusiarch in a game.
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#18
BigBaals

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Astorath works best for me in my pure DoA lists and attached to a RAS

My bare bones Reclusiarch does well, my bare bones Libby does well also. The Libby seems to work best for me attached to a Razor RAS squad and the Reclusiarch tends to work best for me attached to Jump Pack assault troops or a Sanguinary Guard.

Regular Elite Chaplains work amazingly well with my DC of course. It's the only unit I will charge straight into a Tyranid line for a dual/tripple assault and know hands down that I will win with very minimal losses.

I think it all depends on the list. My current list is a hybrid Mephiston led list with regular Chappy attached to the DC. The Libby worked best in my Mech lists, and Astorath/Reclusiarch were fantastic in my DoA lists.

The Librarian can be a beast in CC with URage for him and his squad. The Chaplains definitely have more staying power, and also confer re-rolls, but only on the initial charge. The Librarian has more utility overall, but the Chaplains have more staying power. One thing is for sure - re-rolls for anything are amazing so either way you go I think you'll be happy.

#19
T_roy

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so here is question then regarding LIbby priest reclusiarch combo

how about a squad of 5x ass. termies with 2 th/ss 3LC
priest in termie armour pw
librarian in termie armour?
or reclusiarch in termie armour?

i would think the reclusiarch would be better for the rerolls for the LC's to hit and Damage, BUT
librarian with unleash rage and smite would rock..

im stuck.. lol

#20
AstraWlad

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i would think the reclusiarch would be better for the rerolls for the LC's to hit and Damage, BUT
librarian with unleash rage and smite would rock..

For me the choice is simple: libby can give me rerolls in other player's assault phase (when I need it terribly) while reclusiarch can not.

PS: By the way, with libby at your side you can block enemy's psy-powers, it can save you a game sometimes.

Edited by AstraWlad, 27 December 2011 - 08:00 AM.


#21
librisrouge

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I really dig the Librarian in most of my Mechanized lists. The ability to give a bubble of +5 is pretty sweat. That being said, I'm a big fan of Death Company so I almost always have a Reclusiarch or Chaplain in my list. I'm building a list now that'll have a Reclusiarch for HQ and a Librarian Furioso for getting Shield of Sanguinius. I've high hopes for it.

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#22
Warbringer

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I think the librarian is unfortunately the best choice for HQ in our book.

I mean you can tool him up in so many ways.

I.E with some terminators give him Unleash and Sanguine Sword

For Mech give him the shield so you get the 5+ bubble :)