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Mephiston vs the Sanguinor


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#1
Dante999

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So I am thinking of making a jump heavy army and I currently am thinking of getting Mephiston but after hearing about the Sanguinor I can't decide anymore. Please tell me which one you think is better suited for any situation you can think of. Thank you.
(p.s. If there is already a thread about this very topic could you direct me to it)

#2
Eorek

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I wonder how many times this discussion has been up xD...Mephiston gets my vote...

He can survive being alone where the sanguinor usually gets shot up ...he can run into most things and smash em without taking any damage(everything from armour 14, living metal to toughness 8(rare...but those monsters are out there) and 6 wounds(some nids have that many wounds right?)...sanguinor would claw some at the monolith then give up and he'd run the other direction from a c'tan)

Mephy is alot better when it comes to countering some or the cheesy stuff today like...seercouncil(hood), nob bikers(str 10!) or double lash princes(hood + that he has a better chance of killing the prince)

he gives you a psychic hood...Yay! (personally I prefer that to having a sergeant being pimped + a 6 inches + attack bubble.)

And ... mephiston has pretty stable fluff compared to the sanguinor... I mean... He flew off with a blood thirster into orbit that Sanguinius himself had trouble beating... Guess he was first with popping up in the middle of a fight though (damn draigo ripping him off...)

oh yea... Mephy is cheaper!

Edit: Mephy is the nickname we use for mephiston in my gaming circle:D

Edited by Eorek, 20 October 2011 - 02:48 AM.

The Outcome Justifies the Deed
"My aim is the same my means have improved!" - Captain Apollo Diomedes of the honour guard.

Once more into the fray
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QUOTE (Visitor13 @ Aug 1 2012, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh.

#3
Zedrenael

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I have to agree with previous mentioned post. I have to say that Mephiston is better in close combat. The fact that he can move 12 with wings fleet and then assault he has a possible 24" range. I do not mind the pimped out sergeant but it is suppose to be random so it is not always the sergeant you want. Also you have to be within the 6" to gain his benefit at the time to get it. I know that Sanguinor has a invulnerable save, but you can always hug cover with Mephiston. Plus he can not be instant killed anyways with 6 toughness. He also has a psychic hood for those darn Grey Knights. Just go with the more cost effective option MEPHISTON.
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#4
Babel_Triumphant

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I love the Sanguinor because of his model, his fluff and his rules. I field him frequently, and unfortunately I can tell you that he's not very good. He's too fragile and lacks the killiness you want in a 275 point model. Almost any other way of spending those points in the whole codex will be more efficient.

That said, if you're playing casually he's really fun. He can swoop in to turn the tide of close combats, have epic duels with other HQs, and give other models ludicrous attack values. Giving Chaplain Lemartes 8 I7 S6 WS5 power weapon attacks with rerolls to hit and to wound is fun.

#5
Myxx

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Mephiston IS the Lord of Death for a reason...
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#6
Oiad

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Edit: Mephy is the nickname we use for mephiston in my gaming circle:D

Huh, what? Not 'Mephster', 'Magic Meph' or even 'the Mephsterminator'? ;)

Edited by Oiad, 20 October 2011 - 08:33 AM.


#7
Brother_Byhlli

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So I am thinking of making a jump heavy army... [stuff]



Dante.
Not all those who wander are lost.

#8
AbusePuppy

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If you intend to deploy by Deep Strike, remember that Mephiston is not a Jump Infantry model and cannot DS with the rest of the army.

Honestly, I don't feel either of them are particularly useful, but Sanguinor would get the nod because he can provide a benefit to other models (via his aura and sarge benefit), whereas Mephiston is just a killing machine and nothing more. Meph is more resistant to small arms fire and can massacre his way through non-combat specialists, but lacking an invuln or EW he is comparatively easy prey for anything designed to win a close-up fight. Sanguinor, by contrast, is all but immune to heavy weapons fire but can be brought down by weight of shooting due to only having three wounds and T4- Artificer Armor helps, but they can just tick away at him until he falls unless there is a Priest nearby. He is less killy in a fight than Meph is, but can hold his own against all but the most devastating of combat monsters.

I don't like Dante in a jump army, either, because he is very expensive and doesn't do a lot for you unless you are bringing all (or at least several) Sanguinary Guard to the table- a single Inferus Pistol and a Power Weapon with middling combat stats behind it aren't impressive, and landing "perfectly" is a lot less impressive when you already have DoA to do that most of the time anyways. His fancy mask is decent, but many armies don't bring a combat character to the table anyways, so it does nothing to them. (Some won't have a legal target for it at all, like Tyranids or Guard.) Given that he is far from cheap, I don't consider him a whole lot better than Mephy or Sanguinor for such an army.

Unless you really want to use one of them for modeling or fluff purposes, I would recommend steering away from all the named HQs in the codex. Most of them aren't bad, but they cost large numbers of points and tend to drive you in the direction of specialized armies. Mephiston is the most generically usable of them, but as noted earlier he is a poor fit for a DoA army because of his inability to Deep Strike. Librarians are a premiere HQ for us, bringing a lot to the table for a very affordable price; if you don't like them for some reason, Recclusiarchs are also quite usable and come with an excellent kit of gear for their price.

#9
Eorek

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whereas Mephiston is just a killing machine and nothing more.


The most killy machine in 40k I dare to say :P...but yes...He's awkward in a doa list... I still use him(deploy alone in a cover...He's easy to hide you know..that makes him able to join the fray the same round as your DOA force lands)

And I dare say mephy can survive more heavy weapons from shooting (who leaves mephy without a cover save... 4+ cover with high toughness+ wounds >sanguinors 3+ inv and low toughness and wound any day)

And against most close combat monsters I dare say mephiston would do better against most, the ones sanguinor are better against is limited to stuff like lysander, draigo...and... sanguinor with his awesome save and all I'd say he overall have a worse chance of surviving most close combats mephiston usually emerges unscrated from

Also unlike mephy you need to keep your sanguinor close to a priest at all times not to get picked off by small arms shooting... Imo the sanguinor dosn't even "deserve" to lack the independant character rule

oh yea... mephiston is faster... even if you include a psychic hood trying to dispell him, his fleet + the fact that he won't fail wings all the time will make him among the fastest melée monsters in game

Edited by Eorek, 20 October 2011 - 04:32 PM.

The Outcome Justifies the Deed
"My aim is the same my means have improved!" - Captain Apollo Diomedes of the honour guard.

Once more into the fray
Into the last good fight I'll ever know
Live and die on this day
Live and die on this day

QUOTE (Visitor13 @ Aug 1 2012, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh.

#10
VAGABOND

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Sanguinor CAN take Mephiston.

Fact!
Ryan ''Point, Click, Kill'' Stevenson

Adeptus Custodes: Kicking heretic ass!
Purifiers: Kill it, kill it with fire!
Deathwing: 2+ 3++ is the new black
Necrons: French Liberation!

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#11
Eorek

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Still...ain't the odds still in mephistons favor in a sanguinor vs mephiston fight?
The Outcome Justifies the Deed
"My aim is the same my means have improved!" - Captain Apollo Diomedes of the honour guard.

Once more into the fray
Into the last good fight I'll ever know
Live and die on this day
Live and die on this day

QUOTE (Visitor13 @ Aug 1 2012, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh.

#12
VAGABOND

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Not at all, Sanguinor has a higher chance of killing him due to Mephiston not having an Inv save.
Ryan ''Point, Click, Kill'' Stevenson

Adeptus Custodes: Kicking heretic ass!
Purifiers: Kill it, kill it with fire!
Deathwing: 2+ 3++ is the new black
Necrons: French Liberation!

Best Dark Angels Player, Warhammer 40k Throne of Skulls GT, October 2011, Heat 1
Overall Winner, Warhammer 40k Intrepidations Tournament, November 2011
Best Army, Best Grey Knight Player, 2nd Position overall & 1st Place for Glasgow Team @ Warhammer 40k Border Skirmish, February 2012
2nd Place for Glasgow Team & 5th Position overall @ Chaos Of The Warp 2, March 2012

#13
Eorek

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sanguinor = lower strenght + toughness + wounds
mephiston = higher strenght, toughness + wounds

even with a good save I'm not too sure about that... anyone good at calculating chance around?

Sanguinor has rerolls to hit/wound vs mephiston: sure... but mephiston usually get that bunus/just reroll to hit aswell

since mephiston is faster we can assume that the sanguinor dosn't get his furious charge bonus

I'm not that sure the sanguinor could actually beat the blood angels own lord of death...
The Outcome Justifies the Deed
"My aim is the same my means have improved!" - Captain Apollo Diomedes of the honour guard.

Once more into the fray
Into the last good fight I'll ever know
Live and die on this day
Live and die on this day

QUOTE (Visitor13 @ Aug 1 2012, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh.

#14
Brother_Byhlli

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even with a good save I'm not too sure about that... anyone good at calculating chance around?


I'll have a stab at it....
Not all those who wander are lost.

#15
Brother_Byhlli

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If Mephiston uses Wings of Sanguinius and charges:

Mephiston attacks first.

  • Mephiston takes 1/18 of a wound for casting Wings of Sanguinius and 1/18 of a wound for casting Unleash Rage = 2/18 wounds = 0.11 wounds.
  • 8/9 chance of passing psychic test for Unleash Rage (so 8/9 of failed hits will be rerolled).
  • 8/9 chance of passing Wings of Sanguinius (so receives 1/18 of a wound).
  • Six attacks (four attacks basic, plus one for charging and one for two close-combat weapons).
  • Hitting on 4s.
  • Wounding on 2s.
6 attacks = 3 hits + [3 misses = 24/9 rerolls = 12/9 hits] = 13/3 hits
13/3 hits = 65/18 wounds
65/18 wounds = 65/54 failed armour saves = 1.20 wounds.


The Sanguinor attacks second.

  • Five attacks.
  • Hitting on 3s.
  • Wounding on 5s.
  • Rerolls to hit and to wound.
5 attacks = 10/3 hits + [5/3 misses = 5/3 rerolls = 10/9 hits] = 40/9 hits
40/9 hits = 40/27 wounds + [80/27 failed wounds = 80/27 rerolls = 80/81 wounds] = 200/81 wounds
200/81 wounds = 200/81 failed armour saves = 2.47 wounds + 0.11 [wounds from psychic powers] = 2.58 wounds.


So, given that the next round of combat will be identical, statistically at the end of the second assault phase, The Sanguinor will have lost 1.20 * 2.40 wounds and will have 0.60 wounds left; Mephiston will have lost 2.58 * 2 = 5.16 [minus 1/18 for not casting Wings of Sanguinius = 0.06] = 5.10 wounds and will be dead.

So, unless I made a mistake with my numbers somewhere (and given how many numbers I just played around with, I would be hugely surprised if I haven't made a mistake somewhere!), even if Mephiston gets the charge against The Sanguinor, he's actually statistically likely to lose the combat.

I have to say, I did not expect that outcome. Now to go get my dice out and do some rolling!

Thoughts?

Edit: I put a bunch of time in to calculating the affect of Transfixing Gaze but then realised that as The Sanguinor is not an Independent Character, it doesn't work.

Edited by Brother_Byhlli, 20 October 2011 - 07:04 PM.

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#16
Brother_Byhlli

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First ten times playing through:

  • Mephiston wins with one remaining wound.
  • The Sanguinor wins with one remaining wound.
  • The Sanguinor wins with three remaining wounds.
  • Mephiston wins with three remaining wounds.
  • Mephiston wins with three remaining wounds.
  • The Sanguinor wins with one remaining wound.*
  • The Sanguinor wins with two remaining wounds.**
  • Mephiston wins with four remaining wounds.***
  • Mephiston wins with three remaining wounds.
  • Mephiston wins with one remaining wound.

* This was the first combat where Mephiston lost a wound to Perils of the Warp
** This was the first combat which went beyond the 2nd assault phase
*** This was the first combat where Mephiston failed to activate Unleash Rage

These results are closer to what I anticipated. So either my numbers were wrong or ten rolls isn't enough to draw an accurate picture. Or both!
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#17
Brother_Byhlli

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Having run another ten combats, the total stands even at 10 v. 10.

Edit: I may have rolled these ten combats accidentally giving Mephiston an additional attack

Edited by Brother_Byhlli, 20 October 2011 - 08:10 PM.

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#18
awfulawful

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These results are closer to what I anticipated. So either my numbers were wrong or ten rolls isn't enough to draw an accurate picture. Or both!


Your numbers aren't wrong, just a bit over-simplified. Your analyses (which are great, by the way, very helpful) consider expected values, but not standard deviation/variance. The more dice rolls and calculations you have to combine to get to a conclusion, the flatter the distribution curve is and the results of actually rolling the combats will vary considerably from that mean expected figure you calculated.

That said, I've been out of school for a long time and cannot remember how to do such calculations to save my life. In lieu, the analysis you provided, both crunching the numbers and rolling the dice, is superb. :D

#19
VAGABOND

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You didn't need to math hammer it, common sense would tell you that Sanguinor would take him.

Fair enough Mephiston but Sanguinor has rerolls to hit and wound against him.
Ryan ''Point, Click, Kill'' Stevenson

Adeptus Custodes: Kicking heretic ass!
Purifiers: Kill it, kill it with fire!
Deathwing: 2+ 3++ is the new black
Necrons: French Liberation!

Best Dark Angels Player, Warhammer 40k Throne of Skulls GT, October 2011, Heat 1
Overall Winner, Warhammer 40k Intrepidations Tournament, November 2011
Best Army, Best Grey Knight Player, 2nd Position overall & 1st Place for Glasgow Team @ Warhammer 40k Border Skirmish, February 2012
2nd Place for Glasgow Team & 5th Position overall @ Chaos Of The Warp 2, March 2012

#20
Brother_Byhlli

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You didn't need to math hammer it, common sense would tell you that Sanguinor would take him.

Fair enough Mephiston but Sanguinor has rerolls to hit and wound against him.


Arguably, yes. Thing is, The Sanguinor doesn't always even get a shot. Mephiston needs to roll 4+ with rerolls; 2+; then The Sanguinor has to fail three 3+ armour saves. Easily done. I've rolled the combat maybe thirty times now and I've seen Mephiston turn The Sanguinor into a red paste easily four or five times.
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#21
VAGABOND

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Being brutally honest Mephiston is the noob character that everyone takes but he's so easily countered these days and Sanguinor can benefit your army loads if used correctly.

I was at a tournament at the weekend and I seen in 1 Blood Angels list out of a at least 10. Use Sanguinor in a few games and see what you think of him.

Edited by VAGABOND, 20 October 2011 - 08:29 PM.

Ryan ''Point, Click, Kill'' Stevenson

Adeptus Custodes: Kicking heretic ass!
Purifiers: Kill it, kill it with fire!
Deathwing: 2+ 3++ is the new black
Necrons: French Liberation!

Best Dark Angels Player, Warhammer 40k Throne of Skulls GT, October 2011, Heat 1
Overall Winner, Warhammer 40k Intrepidations Tournament, November 2011
Best Army, Best Grey Knight Player, 2nd Position overall & 1st Place for Glasgow Team @ Warhammer 40k Border Skirmish, February 2012
2nd Place for Glasgow Team & 5th Position overall @ Chaos Of The Warp 2, March 2012

#22
Brother_Byhlli

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Well sorry but you have way to much time on your hands.

Being brutally honest Mephiston is the noob character that everyone takes but he's so easily countered these days and Sanguinor can benefit your army loads if used correctly.


;)

Finished work early, killing time chatting with mates online while I wait for hockey training. I was so surprised by the math results I decided to roll them off.

As it happens - on the offchance you were addressing your "noob character" comments at me, I don't take either of them. I generally take a Librarian and, if the points allow it, Dante.
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#23
Steel Angel

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Transfixing gaze is a leadership roll not moral roll so why not inculed it?

#24
VAGABOND

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If I was aiming at you I'd have said, I mentioned he's a noob character that don't take a great deal of skill to use him. I converted mine and barely even use now because he's overrated.

Dante on the other hand is a completely different kettle of fish and if used with Sanguinor he can be deadly.

They are a fantastic tagteam ;)
Ryan ''Point, Click, Kill'' Stevenson

Adeptus Custodes: Kicking heretic ass!
Purifiers: Kill it, kill it with fire!
Deathwing: 2+ 3++ is the new black
Necrons: French Liberation!

Best Dark Angels Player, Warhammer 40k Throne of Skulls GT, October 2011, Heat 1
Overall Winner, Warhammer 40k Intrepidations Tournament, November 2011
Best Army, Best Grey Knight Player, 2nd Position overall & 1st Place for Glasgow Team @ Warhammer 40k Border Skirmish, February 2012
2nd Place for Glasgow Team & 5th Position overall @ Chaos Of The Warp 2, March 2012

#25
Leonaides

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Transfixing gaze is a leadership roll not moral roll so why not inculed it?

Because it can only be directed at an Independant character... Since The Sanguinor cannot join a unit because he isnt an IC...

And yes Byhlli, I think you may well have given Meph and additional attack in the subsequent rounds (since he would lose the +1 for charging). certainly in the number-crunching bit, maybe not the dice-rolling bit.

But hey - you bothered to throw down dice for 30-odd combats, so we'll overlook little wibbles like that cos we're all friends here. ;)

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