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Mephiston


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#1
Tamwulf

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Does anyone else have a hard time not taking Mephiston? I've been playing a lot against Necrons lately, with the occasional Space Marine army thrown in.

He just seems way, way too good not to include in an army. He can kill anything! He can go anywhere! The only time things have gotten a bit rough for him was against a Dark Eldar army and wounding on 2,3,4+ no matter his toughness, and an Eldar army that blocked all his psychic powers (or attempted to...).

I've played my BA enough now through a wide variety of lists and against a lot of different opponents and feel comfortable in settling on Mephiston in my army. Until my local meta changes and people really start coming up with a way to deal with him...

What do ya'll think?

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#2
Sokhar

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Grey Knights are a bad matchup for him as well. Grenades are annoying, abundant force weapons have one-hit-kill potential, and DCA's are absurdly cheap and will rip him apart in any decent quantity. He's definitely a useful tool, but hardly an auto-include.

#3
Brother nathan

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i use him and a libarian. i was going to include sanguary guard with a fist and banner, but for the points he costs 10 more, has the same number of wounds, higher stats all round, same save, ok fewer attacks but his are better quality, especially if he gets his powers off, and though his movement isnt quite as guaranteed he does have fleet. points wise hes just more sensible on so many levels...
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#4
AbusePuppy

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He's good, but he's a LOT of points sunk into one model and some things (TH/SS Terminators, Paladins, MCs, etc) are pretty bad for him. Personally, I enjoy my 100/125pt budget Libby just fine, because he can hang with the rest of the army and pass out cover saves, Preferred Enemy, morale tests, or whatever for a very low price.

Mephiston does one thing and he does it well- punch enemy models to death. If he meets a better puncher, or an army that doesn't care about your punching, he can be in trouble very quickly.

#5
Brother Chris

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I really like Mephiston, always have done, but we are on a break at the moment, so I can try out some different things. Not being able to join squads these days is a limitation. In the pdf I gave him an honour guard. Your opponant can target him and with no invulnerable save there are quite a lot of nasty things to happen to him before he can get into close combat. And consider what proportion of your points you want tied up in this one figure unit. But, even saying that, the Dante/Mephiston Partnership will always be what BA means to me, and I always come back to them.

#6
Bartali

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No invulnerable save makes it hard for me to justify taking him. Like Abuse Puppy, I prefer a regular libby for shield amongst other things

#7
Morticon

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Does anyone else have a hard time not taking Mephiston? I've been playing a lot against Necrons lately, with the occasional Space Marine army thrown in.



I struggle with this. SO much. SO, SO, SO much.

I can build decent to good lists without him, but I believe that every list with him is stronger.

I took him out for a long while, trying some new things, and I always had that twinge of regret. In pick up and social games, I'll gladly not take him. Going into a tourney however, where i'll be up against a multitude of different armies, he's golden.
Taking him out cause you fear that one of 6 games will be against a GK army that will be able to mitigate his strengths, I find is a bit odd.

There's a fellow gamer down here who quoted a famous SA Rugby coach by saying

"Danie Craven always said 'First choose your kicker, then choose your team'- Mephiston is your kicker"

Just made a lot of sense to me. (same principle I assume for American Football with the quarterback)

Let me ask people this -

If you could pay 250 points for an additional unit that influenced each and every single deployment and tactical decision the enemy made, would you take it?
If that same unit also took up a compulsory slot, and instead of making another one of your existing units an even bigger target, functioned independently - meaning it drew all sorts of fire, how bout then?

What if I asked, (and heres the huge point for me) what can you include in your army for 150 points (the extra points needed to make a libby mephy), that is gonna give you more benefit and do more for your list than he is? I struggle to find anything.
3 attack bikes? A baal? A vindy? A furioso?! Over Mephy?

This unit's relative cost is only 150 points for all those bonuses? (ie: your base cheapest HQ cost is 100points)
You get all the other bonuses.

I can easily make a good BA list without him.
But I can make a better list with him.

Wish it wasn't so, but i believe it is the case.
Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
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There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

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#8
Zhukov

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Yes, I also have a hard time not taking him, I feel safer with him in my list.

I'm open to messages if you want help or advice from me.

 

You can ask me anything.


#9
Morollan

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I find him a bit hit and miss but when he is on form he is unbelievable.

#10
Claws of Corax

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I used Mephiston today at my local game store He alone took out a tryranid warrior brood and a Carnifex then waded into combat with a Trygon and took out its last two wounds..

How is Meph not worth taking...

Claws
QUOTE (Zincite @ Sep 29 2011, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pretend the Emperor is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Now Horus is Anakin. It makes a little bit more sense that way.

I... What? No, Khorne. I did not intend to make you wear a dress. No, you do not have to be Padme. Yes. Now go and kill something like a good little Chaos God.


#11
Blitzkrieg861

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I tried using a Libby and a Reclusiarch (in seperate games) recently. And while they were not awful, they definitely under performed in comparison to Mephiston. I'm too lazy to look at the dude's name, but the guy who quoted the Rugby quote and proposed the question of what can you get for 150pts that is equal to or better than Mephy? was dead on. Very well articulated. When I think about it, I never saw it in that light exactly but it's true, even in a mech list, what can you take to better use those points? You can't fit a decent assault squad, not even another razorback, attack bikes?... maybe.

Mephy has been really really reliable for me. I just played a game last night against Necrons with a jump list and Libby, I couldn't help but think after the first turn how much better shape I would've been in with my mech list and Mephiston. Meph can take soooo many shots before he goes down and whatever he touches dies. I can't see myself not taking him in every single list I make from now on. They might as well made him a blonde and called him Sanguinius (honestly, with his stat line could Sanguinius even take Meph? Hahaha)
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#12
Morticon

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I'm too lazy to look at the dude's name, but the guy who quoted the Rugby quote and proposed the question of what can you get for 150pts that is equal to or better than Mephy? was dead on. Very well articulated.


Think it was that mouthy moderator Morticon or something.
Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#13
Blitzkrieg861

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Oh, really? Man, I hate that guy :o
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#14
BorisBC

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Hmm you guys have sold me. I was going to drop him from a 1750 pts league we are starting this week, but now I'm gonna find a place for him!
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#15
Judaz

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I have actually never played with Mephiston. Don't like to proxy, and the model is so damn ugly. I'm about to build my own, but I have some other projects that gets in the way.
It seems that I have missed half of what it is to play BA ;)

Marshal2Crusaders, on 06 May 2013 - 05:55, said:


Soo...

 

 

Did someone just tell a Black Library author that the author doesn't fundamentally understand a portion of the background the author himself contributed to expanding on, where previously no information (read this as: didn't even exist in anyone's head) was available?


#16
Morollan

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I have actually never played with Mephiston. Don't like to proxy, and the model is so damn ugly. I'm about to build my own, but I have some other projects that gets in the way.
It seems that I have missed half of what it is to play BA :)


My Mephiston model spent many years masquerading as a Nurgle Sorceror. When I decided to strip the paint job down and re-enlist him in the Blood Angels I very much regretted carefully filing off the BA iconography!

#17
Bartali

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I want to like Mephiston.... I want to feel I can run him into things that ASM will struggle with (outside of mass assaults).... The simple fact is, he can't beat up TH/SS Terminators and the like because he doesn't have an invulnerable save. I'm sure he can walk through Tactical Marines, but then that's what my assault marines are for.

What if I asked, (and heres the huge point for me) what can you include in your army for 150 points (the extra points needed to make a libby mephy), that is gonna give you more benefit and do more for your list than he is? I struggle to find anything.
3 attack bikes? A baal? A vindy? A furioso?! Over Mephy?

This unit's relative cost is only 150 points for all those bonuses? (ie: your base cheapest HQ cost is 100points)
You get all the other bonuses.


As it stands with the list I'm building, I'd rather have a Libby w/ Shield, Rage or Fear and an AC/LC Pred thanks.

#18
AbusePuppy

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Hmm you guys have sold me. I was going to drop him from a 1750 pts league we are starting this week, but now I'm gonna find a place for him!


Eh. At 1750 I'm pretty ambivalent about him; that's sucking up a very large chunk of your points and you lose the flexibility a normal Libby gives. If you face a lot of foot lists, yeah, he'll do well, but that's not saying a whole lot.

#19
Morticon

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Hmm you guys have sold me. I was going to drop him from a 1750 pts league we are starting this week, but now I'm gonna find a place for him!


Eh. At 1750 I'm pretty ambivalent about him; that's sucking up a very large chunk of your points and you lose the flexibility a normal Libby gives. If you face a lot of foot lists, yeah, he'll do well, but that's not saying a whole lot.


Gotta say Im gonna disagree with that part.
I think the libby offers less flexibility not more.
The amount of things Mephy can deal with should be the focus, not the amount of things he cant.
His "can kill" list is much, much longer than the "cant kill" list.
Where as the libby you have a unit only adds to the target priority threat level of an already existing target of your enemy's and at most can either grant 5++ saves from shooting (hardly worthwhile in my opinion), PE - which is great but again, see previous sentence or Fear - which is very good, but much more situational.


Bartali - depends what your list is. I must clarify that I dont think Mephy is a simple slot in change for the better for every list. That's not what I meant at all. It goes hand in hand with that quote i mentioned before with "choosing the kicker". You cant just jam him in and hope he works better irrespective of your list. You have to focus your building around his inclusion. So, while your current list may be better with a libby and a pred, that's different from saying that its a better (somewhat different/tweaked) list than one with mephiston in it. (do you have a link to your current list btw?)


BorisBC - check the link in my sig for tourney batreps -most of which are with Mephy. He does okay :D
Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#20
Bartali

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Where as the libby you have a unit only adds to the target priority threat level of an already existing target of your enemy's and at most can either grant 5++ saves from shooting (hardly worthwhile in my opinion)


It may be only 5+, but Shield is golden for both jumpers and vehicles that aren't hiding and are trying to close quickly with your opponent. I'd quite happily have one turn with 5+ cover to close quickly, than taking two turns with 4+ cover for instance.

#21
Spacefrisian

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So no counter uis mentioned.. shame on you all.

So i will be the bad man and name some arguments (2) for not taking him.

Skulltaker: can you say 2+ inv save and 4+ rending instant death
Necron Lord with Mindscarabs mumbojumbo: make a LD test and most likely fail, and than youre Forceweapon power is activated as per mindshackle rules.
There are no Deamons in 40k

#22
Morollan

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So no counter uis mentioned.. shame on you all.

So i will be the bad man and name some arguments (2) for not taking him.

Skulltaker: can you say 2+ inv save and 4+ rending instant death
Necron Lord with Mindscarabs mumbojumbo: make a LD test and most likely fail, and than youre Forceweapon power is activated as per mindshackle rules.


Not sure how the mindscarabs thing works and Skulltaker is certainly a pain for him but how often are you likely to see either of those?

#23
Spacefrisian

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Always expect the unexpected. And Mindshackle on Necronlords/overlords is to good not to take (and dirt cheap)
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#24
Deus_Sanguinius

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But the chance to face a Skulltaker is very minor. And there is a bane for every powerfull charakter. Even for guys like Draigo, Abaddon etc. And if you are up against a Skulltaker with Mephy you can always choose not to fight him directly and beat up the rest of the Demons. So not to choose Mephiston because there maybe a few things he cannot compete with is just ridiculous. Mephiston isn't perfect, but there is no single character out there who can handle everything on his own. From my personal experience I haven't seen a character who is more reliable in killing things than Mephiston. But you need to know how to play him of course. ;)

Edited by Deus_Sanguinius, 28 November 2011 - 03:56 PM.

“The Emperor himself mounts guard on us. Righteousness is our shield. Faith is our armour and hatred our weapon. So fear not and be proud, for we are the sons of Sanguinius, the protectors of Mankind. Aye, we are indeed the Angels of Death. For the Emperor and Sanguinius!"

#25
Blitzkrieg861

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I agree, his strength is in what he can kill rather that what he can't. There are certain things that are trouble for him (ex a 30 man Orc Boyz squad with Power Klaw by himself) But he can whipe smaller units easily. Tank hunting, meq, infantry blobs that aren't fearless, most MCs and let's not also forget psychological warfare. He changes the way people play just by being on the board. People want to focus on him. That portion is hard to measure but it's there nonetheless.

As for Skull Taker, yeah he would be problems but I have only played him once and would just focus fire the massed TL-Assault Cannons my army has on him and his unit, they will go down fast. Skull Taker would never get into combat with Mephy unless you let it happen, the unit's movement just isn't good enough.

The mind shackle thing is possible, but not guarenteed. I haven't the numbers handy but I believe it's a 50/50 chance of them taking ownership of him for a round (3 dice on LD 10) and I'm also not sure if the use of his psychic hood would be allowed too. If that's the case the chance goes down to 25%, not great odds. Also not sure of when exactly this power is used, if you expected for the opponent to have this on his guy, why not just not use your Rage and Sword of Sanguinius? Meph will hit himself 50%, wound on 50% and you need 50% to get the power to work and then finally a possible 50% on using the psychic hood to stop it. With all those things, that would drop the chance of this working to about 6.5% or so. Not exactly reliable and then next turn the Necron Lord is dead. Even without psychic hood it's about a 12.5% chance. Terrible odds.

Morticon's original counter arguement for the benefit of Mephy hasn't really been rebuttled either though, what can you fit into the army for another 150pts that is better than Mephy? I tried a Libby a couple of times with Shield and while in theory it's a good spell but in practice a 33.3% chance to save a penetrating hit, glancing hit or wound on some type of infantry isn't that great. I can't roll a 3+ armor save on my marines to save my life so there is no way I'm going to make 5+ consistantly.

Many of the things that may kill Mephy will almost certainly kill other HQs you could take. The Libby would go down real easy to Skull Taker, about the same for Mind Shackle, that 30 man unit of Orcs owns him for free and even infantry blobs with no power weapons or fists would destroy a libby by himself. We can factor in a unit to go with the Libby too but what can you really take to put him with for 150pts? About 7 assault marines with a power fist? Mephy would rip that unit apart by himself, they'd be lucky to score a single wound on him.

In regards to hammernators. What DOES kill them realiably in an assault? Nothing really aside from massed attacks. You shouldn't be engaging this unit in an assault anyways, not unless they're very hurt. Without a transport they don't have a chance at all of catching Mephy or any of your tanks. They will move 7-12 inches a turn where as we can always go 12-18 with any tank or Meph if need be. Kite and shoot = dead hammernators. Yes, please bring a Land Raider for them. Most mech or competative BA lists will have lots of TL-Assault Cannons or Multi-Meltas to drop that Raider by 2nd turn.

He's just too good to not take. Especially for Mech. People think if they can just get a few guys to your tanks that they'll open you up real fast. It's not the case, that's where Mephy comes in to whipe these small squds that manage to make it past your lines.
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