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Night Lords Tactics


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#1801
raeho

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Cross of Bone: Good point on ZM, I'm otherwise struggling to think of things to bring that'd make this rite useful. The points rack up really quickly and I'd rather fill other FOC slots in a normal game.


Bloodied Gauntlet: Unfortunately the compulsory choices can never score or even contest, I'm thinking Assault Squads might be a better choice as the compulsory choices also can't buy dedicated transports.

Swift Blade: Definitely looks fun, unfortunately for everyone else it seems to be the only viable way the Hussars work in any list though.

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#1802
SkimaskMohawk

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Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".


Lol what?

Terror assault was the premiere rite and what propelled night lords high tier potential, which ha now got buffed both on both the mechanics of the rite and the units involved.

How does bloody gauntlet compete to become the go-to rite?

#1803
Aeternus

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Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".

Lol what?

Terror assault was the premiere rite and what propelled night lords high tier potential, which ha now got buffed both on both the mechanics of the rite and the units involved.

How does bloody gauntlet compete to become the go-to rite?

They may have meant vanilla as in just a generic rite without really focusing on legion special squads (terror squads/raptors), so more just general tactical squads with standard elites, rather than being the premier go-to rite (which terror assault just doubled down on being for the vast majority of games.
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#1804
SkimaskMohawk

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Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".

Lol what?

Terror assault was the premiere rite and what propelled night lords high tier potential, which ha now got buffed both on both the mechanics of the rite and the units involved.

How does bloody gauntlet compete to become the go-to rite?
They may have meant vanilla as in just a generic rite without really focusing on legion special squads (terror squads/raptors), so more just general tactical squads with standard elites, rather than being the premier go-to rite (which terror assault just doubled down on being for the vast majority of games.

Fair enough, but if the goal is to use normal units just...don't take a rite.

I'd especially not recommend taking Bloody Gauntlet unless you're very comfortable playing with the given units and list and limitations.

And actually RAW, you've alread lost/drawn when you get extra VPs. Theres no mechanic about recalculating based on the new amount.
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#1805
Lautrec the Embraced

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Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".


Lol what?
Terror assault was the premiere rite and what propelled night lords high tier potential, which ha now got buffed both on both the mechanics of the rite and the units involved.

Okay, so, controversial opinion here maybe, but where I am from, Terror Assault used to be considered an unplayable dumpster fire. To give just a little bit of reasoning:

-sigular HS choice
-extra troops penalty
-overcosted terror squad without melee weapons, good enough for bullying some squads especially with, again, expensive volkites but Veterans with combis and power weapons could beat them in both shooting and melee
-I love me some Dreadclaws both never got convinced that DS a unit that has infiltrate is a good idea. Kinda like buying Gal Vorbak that already has an inbuilt DS a drop pod (thanks Last of Serrated Suns)
-best part, possibly 0 benefits. If you fail night fighting roll, congrats! You have (Imo of course) heavily limited your army to gain n o t h i n g. Higher I would be great if it could be reliable turn 2-3 but well, it wasn't.

So, I fully understand that my view IS skewed by my local meta and armies that my friends play with, so RoW could be in the same time both great and horrible for two of us. But I wonder, do you think it got too powerful?
I personally reckon it looks much more convincing to play with, not even due to points reduction but rather Instant night on turn 1 and adding Raptors to compulsory troops. I'm really looking forward to play it.
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#1806
SkimaskMohawk

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Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".


Lol what?
Terror assault was the premiere rite and what propelled night lords high tier potential, which ha now got buffed both on both the mechanics of the rite and the units involved.

Okay, so, controversial opinion here maybe, but where I am from, Terror Assault used to be considered an unplayable dumpster fire. To give just a little bit of reasoning:

-sigular HS choice
-extra troops penalty
-overcosted terror squad without melee weapons, good enough for bullying some squads especially with, again, expensive volkites but Veterans with combis and power weapons could beat them in both shooting and melee
-I love me some Dreadclaws both never got convinced that DS a unit that has infiltrate is a good idea. Kinda like buying Gal Vorbak that already has an inbuilt DS a drop pod (thanks Last of Serrated Suns)
-best part, possibly 0 benefits. If you fail night fighting roll, congrats! You have (Imo of course) heavily limited your army to gain n o t h i n g. Higher I would be great if it could be reliable turn 2-3 but well, it wasn't.

So, I fully understand that my view IS skewed by my local meta and armies that my friends play with, so RoW could be in the same time both great and horrible for two of us. But I wonder, do you think it got too powerful?
I personally reckon it looks much more convincing to play with, not even due to points reduction but rather Instant night on turn 1 and adding Raptors to compulsory troops. I'm really looking forward to play it.

 

 

Can't comment on what your meta is, so on the whole this is the breakdown on what makes terror assault good and why its drawbacks are...not very bad.

 

The main strength for terror assault isn't terror marines. It's the access to pods as dedicated transports to manipulate Drop Pod assault. And you don't put marines in pods (aside from the odd pod out), you put either a Leviathan as your single heavy support to go and cause a ruckus and then a contemptor in dreadclaw to follow it up with more pressure, or double contemptor dreadclaw. I'd personally always go the grav/phosphex/drill/volkite to beat up on rapiers/ heavy weapons squads/ artillery tanks/whatever and double grav on the contemptor to provide more vehicle threat and some early anti spartan threat. 

 

The Night Fight was as close as guaranteed as possible without the literal guarantee. It's a 2+ to get 4+ cover in the open turn 1 and in bigger games you could take curze to guarantee it. But you should usually get it for the majority of games or even a whole tournament run; I've failed the roll once in 3 and a half years of actively playing Night Lords. 4+ cover to open ground is great, as is 3+ to area terrain, as is a 3+ jink save on dreadclaws. It also stacks on the leviathan's disembark from its pod to grant it a 2+ cover against most things when you disembark it into the corner between the doors. Most serious threats in the front arc should be dead.

 

The compulsory stuff and the dreads sets you at ~1200 and you can now build your list out. Anti tank shouldn't be a problem since you have 2 fast attack slots to stuff with javelins, or the ability to take spartans as dedicated to terminators. Rapiers can help supplement or fill anti-infantry if you've gone too far on anti-tank. Terminators to deepstrike and plasma down objective holders/key threats. More list building advice, etc, etc...

 

 

So basically, the strength of the rite is to actually abuse some of the strongest units in the game, namely leviathans and dreadclaws and javelins. It makes you take expensive(ish) squads, but they have a small footprint and can choose how they deploy, be it outflank or infiltrate to get on objectives. The HS penalty is easily circumvented by leveraging Elites, Fast Attack and Dedicated. 

 

You can also throw Sevatar into the mix to start infiltrating those rapiers or Spartan. Or take Curze to guarantee the night and add yet another fast moving threat that has a surprising amount of durability.

 

Lots of options because Night Lords give you so many ways to manipulate deployment while having a very resilient early game and finally backing it up with the second best melee marines in the business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But yes, it can also be easily unimpressive if you don't do any of that.


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#1807
Lautrec the Embraced

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I understand, thanks for your explanation. It seems to me that one of the reasons why my Terror Assault well, sucks, may be lower points games. I don't usually have the points to take much fancy stuff. It leaves fairly small margin for actually 'good' units.

I may just be at odds with some units you've mentioned: Leviathans give me PTSD (hint:it involves 1st turn lascannon shots) and my heart already beats for Fire Raptor. I also am not a Spartan guy. As for Rapiers and Javelins, they are indeed necessary.

But honestly I'd say that personally, I don't feel like I need that degree of deployment manipulation. Sev alone with a Terror squad or two and some DSing Terminators or Dreadclaws gives me in my games enough flexibility even with no Rite, and I'll hapily trade one better cover saves (even not necessarily as Curze and some missions provide it anyway) for real heavy support like my beloved Medusas. I just don't see this RoW ( at least I didn't) as a good trade. You get some limits and gain some flexibility and cover, but a good chunk of it seems to be doable without it. I do see that increase in survivability on 1st turn is great but it comes at a cost, and a one that is too large for me to pay, especially when after 1st turn you can notice a return to your normal stats, without extra I or Stealth and From the Darkness cover.

As I said, your input is much appreciated. Thank for laying it out. Of course I'm not arguing on your tactics as you clearly know it works from experience - i just value some things differently. But I'm glad to see some folks enjoying our Rites.
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#1808
SkimaskMohawk

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It's definitely isn't necessary to make the most min/maxed list for your meta and can get stale pretty fast all things considered. I haven't used my leviathan, Spartan or fire raptor in a long time and enjoyed making gimmicky combos like Herald+raptors. But the general idea of using terror assaults strengths optimally is eliminating some of the enemy's threats turn 1 while being more protected. And obviously the tanky leviathan trick can be replicated just by taking curze

Curious how your leviathan died to lascannons turn 1, was it luck or a whack of iron havocs or what? Because the math is good on it surviving most things; it takes 13 havocs shooting at its invul side to get 4 hull points through, or 25 lascannons. If they're granting you cover during the night, it now takes 20 havocs or 71 lascannons. Point is its unlikely to die lol.

And in terms of points for the core "compulsory units and dreads in pods" it's only about 1200, so you still have 800 to spend if you play 2000 or 550 if you play the smallest recommended size AoD game.





Also speaking about raptors. Guys, I think they're really good now. If you compare them to veterans the cost for a base squad is 20 points different to get you all their special rules (as jet packs are costed at 3ppm comparing tacs to assaults. That's all you pay extra; additional guys are a jump packs 3 more than vets. Start giving them power weapons and you're now cheaper...

If you compare them to dawnbreakers, they're 5 points less per model to not have artificer armour and have a worse charge against ap 2. But wait...do they actually? At the same points equivalency of 5 spear dawnbreakers and 6 glaive-raptors, they actually average the same amount of wounds against cataphractii. How about against a unit of 10 marines; with 8.76 for the dawnbreakers and...18.4 for the raptors?! Bloody murder is a crazy mechanic, the auto-wound combined with it kicking in right after they attack and not being bumped to I1 makes for a huge damage spike.
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#1809
Aztek

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Boy am I feeling glad I kitted out my raptors with almost all Chain-Glaives lol.


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#1810
Lautrec the Embraced

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Curious how your leviathan died to lascannons turn 1, was it luck or a whack of iron havocs or what?

A lone Boxnought with a lascannon. Was first shot of the game. Fun times.

Boy am I feeling glad I kitted out my raptors with almost all Chain-Glaives lol.

Ah yes, I remember trying to dissuade you from that loadout some times ago lol. Looks like you are the one with Precognition.

I agree that Raptors looks very powerful now...perhaps slightly too good. Compared to Dawnbreakers they are bound to be better against lighter stuff but imo we won't replicate their effectiveness against Termis etc. unless Axes of course but then it's unwieldy.

Don't quite follow the maths. If I understand their special rule (no book here), Raptors deal after unsaved wounds an additional amount of autowounds without Ap. So if I'm not mistaken:

5 Dawnbreaker cohort (charge)- 15 attacks, 10 hits, 8.33 wounds, 4,165 dead Cataphractii

6 Night Raptors with Glaives (charge, TfM) - 18 attacks, 15 hits!, average 2.5 Rendings and 10 more normal wounds amounting to 2.92 dead Termis, with Bloody Murder dealing extra 0.487 to 3.40. (If Huntmaster has 3 attacks base then it's 3.59)

This means you'd need around 7.344 charging Raptors with TfM too ensure similiar killiness to Sanguinus boys. It's still very good results but shows that 1)chainglaives won't really do Axes job unless spammed but it's worth giving a shot sometimes2)glaive Raptors are extremely good and flexible unit as with that loadout they will absolutely annihilate any PA or worse unit and they still can hurt even Terminators quite happily.

#1811
SkimaskMohawk

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You're forgetting hammer of wrath since they always get jump packs and the huntsmaster does indeed have 3 base.


The difference between glaives and dawnbreakers is ~0.4 percent. It's the same, they both consistently deal 4 unsaved wounds to cataphractii for the same points.
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#1812
Lautrec the Embraced

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You are right about Hammer of Wrath, I assumed both units are using it so I didn't factor it but it swings additional 0.5 wounds to Raptors favour if DC did use their in movement. Mind that they can use HoW as well, and they get two-phase Jump packs if Sang is on the field but surely Raptors are easier to use.

Damn, they really buffed them. The sole fact that we compare them to dawnbreakers is a testament to their strenght. They'll never have their 2+ save but offensively they might just be  one of the most deadly squads in the game if you can trigger Talent for Murder.

I am also quite surprised that we got 2 uber sergeants on unique squads, Huntmaster with 3 attacks base is deadly and the Contekar one (ehh, Dissident? something like that) is literally a Centurion with good wargear, especially when his Initiative is not a factor thanks to unwieldy weapon

#1813
SkimaskMohawk

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Well keep in mind that the the DG's only results in .423 failed saves. And you can't just add that to the failed invulnerable number because of the different saves.

I was also derping a bit in the points equivalency; 210 gets you 6 glaive raptors and a 7th, stock raptor. This doesn't actually do anything but even out the failed terminator saves to parity, but it does help guarantee aTfM.

#1814
lanceqi

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so...... abuse 10-man-strong Night Raptors for Terror Assault? Perhaps a warmonger-consul with jump pack for extra killiness?

#1815
Aztek

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What's better you think for running Terror Assault? One 15 man Squad of Raptors, or Two 10 man Squads of Raptors? Rest of the troops are Three 10 man Terror squads.



#1816
helterskelter

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Are we not enjoying Bloodied Gauntlet? It's hilarious, you could draw/lose then win the game with a good dice roll!

I get it's not the competitive choice but grabbing a bunch of dudes and going full tilt to kill or be killed because you've got red hands screams fun to me.

From the competitive standpoint, none of these units gain the enemy VP either, so that's 5 units there's no kill points or other objectives for, it could actually be good if played right.
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#1817
The Scorpion

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What's better you think for running Terror Assault? One 15 man Squad of Raptors, or Two 10 man Squads of Raptors? Rest of the troops are Three 10 man Terror squads.

 

Always go max-size with Night Lords. Take 2 terror, 1 raptor.



#1818
SkimaskMohawk

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What's better you think for running Terror Assault? One 15 man Squad of Raptors, or Two 10 man Squads of Raptors? Rest of the troops are Three 10 man Terror squads.

The real question is, what's your intended goal with terror assault and the compulsory units? Is it to have fast objective grabbers? Minimally fill the troops to go for dreads in pods? Focus on the troops as fighting units? I think we can safely say youre not going pod heavy, so let's ask what you plan on your 4-5 units of troops doing. Are the terror marines just going to infiltrate onto objectives with bolters, or are they going to do some assaulting with volkite softening? Is curze going to be in the list to go with 15 raptors? Questions along those lines you know. Things like "Max out to use legion trait" aren't what you want to consider; strategy and point efficiency are.

So when talking about the new raptor points, its important to note that they scale very, very well and have a comparatively high base cost. One unit of 15 is 300 points, while two units of 5 are...also 300 points. So since you've budgeted 450 points to raptors, you could do 15 and 5 and use the small unit to claim objectives, or one unit of 15 with full upgrades and still have 60 points to invest somewhere else. Really depends on how many scoring units you want and how many big threats you have in your list.

I'll also point out that currently raptors are just better than terror marines point for point. You count as double for outnumbering and are also twice as fast, in addition to having a more reliable charge.

Against a power armoured model, charging, the results are:

A terror marine inflicts 0.45 unsaved wounds
A raptor inflicts 0.87 unsaved wounds

If you give volkite and have that as part of the calculation then you get to 0.84 for the terror marine, and you're now 2 points more expensive than the raptor.

I'd honestly recommend fully replacing terror marines with raptors at this point.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 20 September 2020 - 01:35 PM.

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#1819
Aztek

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I've got 3 ten man squads of Volkites, and 22 Night Raptors with Chain Glaives available. When I've run it before book 9 I had the 3 scoring units, in the Terror Squads, which was a little on the low side I think. Now with Night Raptors being troops, I'm trying to decide whether it's better to have 5 Scoring units with 10 Raptors each or 4 scoring units with 1 fifteen man squad. I usually infiltrate 2 of the Terror Squads and drop pod in another so I have 3 drop pods total. The other two having a Leviathan and a Contemptor respetively. Curze is not in the list.

 

Thanks for the numbers break downs! Maybe a 15 man squad and 5 man squad is what I should consider?

 

Replacing Terror Squads with Raptors is unfortunately not an option due to money and time lol.


Edited by Aztek, 20 September 2020 - 03:41 PM.


#1820
SkimaskMohawk

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Sounds like you have a very well-rounded base terror assault list!

I think the 10/10 (or 11/11) split would be better in this case, despite being the less efficient option. They can act as follow up threats to the initial pod drop, while still giving you board control and objective reach.

And ya raptors are pricy; I was never a fan of the poses so I used 40k raptors for all of mine and I want to say I have something like 35. My decision paid off over time as the night lords aesthetic is basically the 40k raptor gear but no chaos lol.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 20 September 2020 - 03:57 PM.

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#1821
Aztek

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Much appreciated! I'll give 10 and 10 or 11/11 a shot the next game I get in!


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