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Dread Comparison

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#51
Xenith

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I should note that a blood talon dread radically out performs a furioso fist dread if you're also able to buff it via psyker powers, Dante, Tycho, or anything else.

 

As above, if you buff the fist dread in the same way, does it go back to being better than the talon dread?

 

 

 

There is a TLLC in the Dreadnought box. For Autocannons, it's a trip to FW.

Unless it's changed in the past few years, Dreadnought box is an assault cannon, TLLC, powerfist (SB & HF) and missile launcher.

Venerable box has a plasma cannon, powerfist and something else.

 

Doesn't one of them come with a multi melta option? I know the venerable box also comes with an assault cannon.

 

 

Normal dread - ass, las, fist, missile launcher

ven dread - ass, las, plas, fist

 

The AoBR dread came with a plastic multi melta, but that is now part of the "Battle for Vedros" starter set.



#52
Fidelius Animo

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At thread this is Mathhammer so YMMV

Example 1
Assuming nothing but base stats (3+ to hit, functional STR 12) and BTs vs FF

Base 4 attacks targeting Land Raider (3+ to wound and 5+ save)

FF ~4.5 expected damage off of ~1.5 unsaved wounds
BT~3.8 expected damage off of ~1.1 unsaved wounds

Example 2 Assuming both have access to outside rerolls to hit (and assuming outside rerolls stack with FF reroll stacks), Against LR

FF~5.26 expected damage on 1.756 unsaved wounds
BT~5.53 expected damage on 1.58 unsaved wounds

Example 3

Same as 1 but D.C. Dread with charge

FF= ~ 5.925 expected damage
BT= ~5.183 expected damage

Example 4

D.C. Dread with Charge and Lemartes Reroll (again assuming additional rerolls stack)

FF ~6.39 expected damage on 2.195 unsaved wounds
BT ~6.9125 expected damage on 1.975 unsaved wounds.




I'm not going to work anymore examples at the moment except to acknowledge several caveats:

1) that buffs of the same type have a diminishing effect and especially so when they're on a 3+ roll. So :cuss do not benefit from outside hit rerolls as much as BTs benefit from outside rerolls.

2) :cuss damage will be more clustered and thus more reliable as BTs will have greater variance. However as you add additional attacks the variance in BTs damage smooths out and quickly out paces the FF because 2/3 of the time it will equal or exceed the FF damage

I think at this point the most attacks you can get a dread up to is 7? DC+Black rage+Unleash Rage+Might of heros

At 7 and no reroll to hit BTs on get about 2 unsaved wounds for 7.2 damage but with one rerollbro hit 9.667 damage while :cuss only get up to 8.2 damage with one reroll and 9.22 damage with two rerolls

Edited by Fidelius Animo, 08 June 2017 - 09:59 AM.

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#53
Chaplain Gunzhard

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Ha what?

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#54
Bartali

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I don't normally pick up on language in posts (mine is mostly terrible when I read it back)

 

However, I do love

 

rerollbro

 

Which has got me imagining a bro/dude servitor who does all your re-rolls for you


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#55
Fidelius Animo

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I don't normally pick up on language in posts (mine is mostly terrible when I read it back)

However, I do love

rerollbro


Which has got me imagining a bro/dude servitor who does all your re-rolls for you

It's what happens when adaptive word suggestion on my recently replaced phone hasn't been well trained in gamer jargon

#56
Fidelius Animo

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Ha what?



Is there anything I can do to help unpack the above?

mathhammer is something akin to Hersey, but if there's some particular variable I can help you unpack let me know

#57
Arkhanist

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At thread this is Mathhammer so YMMV

...and assuming outside rerolls stack with FF reroll stacks)...
 

 

They don't, alas. You can only reroll any dice roll once (sidebar, pg 178 in leaked rules).


Edited by Arkhanist, 08 June 2017 - 12:01 PM.

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#58
Fidelius Animo

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At thread this is Mathhammer so YMMV

...and assuming outside rerolls stack with FF reroll stacks)...


They don't, alas. You can only reroll any dice roll once (sidebar, pg 178 in leaked rules).

Thanks I have only the crappy compresses PDFs because my internet is rather slow and the sidebars are almost entirely unreadable.


If rerolls don't stack, then the BTs quickly outpace :cuss with any buff

#59
Morticon

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Whats a BT and a FF? 


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#60
Brother Lemartes

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Blood talons and furioso fists
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#61
Xenith

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In the words of Ultra Magnus: "Consistency is Victory".

 

I'd rather take the guaranteed 3 damage over a D6 roll. The guaranteed 3 will never leave you high and dry against primaris marines, terminators, tyranid warriors etc.

 

Talons technically have a higher D output per wound (3.5 compared to 3) but this isn't enough for me. D6+1 damage would make it a much harder choice.


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#62
Chaplain Gunzhard

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As someone with supernatural abilities to roll 1s and 2s I try to avoid as many D3 and D6 rolls as I can.

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#63
Fidelius Animo

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In the words of Ultra Magnus: "Consistency is Victory".

I'd rather take the guaranteed 3 damage over a D6 roll. The guaranteed 3 will never leave you high and dry against primaris marines, terminators, tyranid warriors etc.

Talons technically have a higher D output per wound (3.5 compared to 3) but this isn't enough for me. D6+1 damage would make it a much harder choice.

It's certainly a valid point about intended targets.


If your desire is to euip dreads with the capacity todeal with Multi Wound elite models in addition to Provide chip damage on heavy targets like Land Raiders, then Furioso fists are far and a way the superior choice as there will be far less risk of drastically over damaging a model or worse leaving a model you wounded alive because you rolled a 1.

By contrast if you're primarily interested in dreads as a counter to heavy armor, any of the relatively easy to access buffs makes Blood Talons superior due to single target receiving all hits

Edited by Fidelius Animo, 08 June 2017 - 02:04 PM.


#64
Are Verlo

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One redeeming point about the Librarian dread is possible warlord traits. It would make quite a durable warlord and if it gets either +1 attack or the "6+ FnP" its quite fighty or durable.

 

I don´t know if Mort included the grapples in his comparisons, but +2M compared to the other dreads and 2" extra charge range vs vehicles is quite the advantage. Especially now that I guess we will see more vehicles of all kinds on the battlefield.


Edited by Are Verlo, 08 June 2017 - 03:24 PM.


#65
Morticon

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One redeeming point about the Librarian dread is possible warlord traits. It would make quite a durable warlord and if it gets either +1 attack or the "6+ FnP" its quite fighty or durable.

 

I don´t know if Mort included the grapples in his comparisons, but +2M compared to the other dreads and 2" extra charge range vs vehicles is quite the advantage. Especially now that I guess we will see more vehicles of all kinds on the battlefield.

The magna grapple is not something I considered - though the extra movement and charge range is certainly a plus.  

 

The 6+ "FNP" is a bit of a misnomer I feel.  I think it's largely useless. If it worked like old FNP, then much better.  But, with how Meph, DC and the DC dread work now (in fact, how all "FNP" works now, is that you roll it for your wounds.  So, if a dread takes a lascannon hit, and it wounds - you dont take 1x 6+ FNP. 
You wait for him to d6 the damage, and then roll that many 6+ saves.  

It's cute. But something that, were I a game designer, wouldnt factor into cost for more than 5 points. 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

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#66
Frater Cornelius

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those SW dreads are miles better <_<


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

Be excellent to one another, and lean on your brothers and sisters when your patience grows slim

 


#67
Xenith

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those SW dreads are miles better <_<

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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#68
Frater Cornelius

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those SW dreads are miles better <_<

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

That's a cleverly phrased oxymoron born of a negative opinion of the current state and you know it :P I wouldn't lose my head just yet. BA are great from I gathered (although I have not tried them yet). Besides, if the new fluff is anything to follow, then you neither want to be in the UM, nor in the SW camp. Tension is rising :P

Focus on what you are good at. Honour, duty, sacrifice. That is all the Emperor demands ;)

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#69
Morticon

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those SW dreads are miles better dry.png


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

 

havent paid them enough detailed attention, but DA look very, very good, too.


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#70
Orpheus Black Blood

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those SW dreads are miles better dry.png


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

 

I think that's not going to change (with the codex sw will be better). It's been that way forever.

What i would like it's us being competitive and that's it smile.png . Our dreads seem a little lackluster, maybe a bit overcosted, but i like the feel of them.

The furioso was sturdier in 7th than a normal dread and now it isn't, that i don't like.


Edited by Orpheus Black Blood, 10 June 2017 - 12:39 PM.


#71
Frater Cornelius

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those SW dreads are miles better dry.png


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

 

I think that's not going to change (with the codex sw will be better). It's been that way forever.

What i would like it's us being competitive and that's it smile.png . Our dreads seem a little lackluster, maybe a bit overcosted, but i like the feel of them.

The furioso was sturdier in 7th than a normal dread and now it isn't, that i don't like.

 

 

Sounds like I may do something I did with 7th GK, but now with 8th BA (read: take an army perceived as weak and take on the top dogs). I do not believe there is something like a 'bad' army (within reason, mind you). I am confident BA can blow SW and SM out of the water without Primaris support. No promises though. I will decide once I return from my UK trip at the end of the month :P


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Be excellent to one another, and lean on your brothers and sisters when your patience grows slim

 


#72
Morticon

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those SW dreads are miles better dry.png


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

 

I think that's not going to change (with the codex sw will be better). It's been that way forever.

What i would like it's us being competitive and that's it smile.png . Our dreads seem a little lackluster, maybe a bit overcosted, but i like the feel of them.

The furioso was sturdier in 7th than a normal dread and now it isn't, that i don't like.

 

 

Sounds like I may do something I did with 7th GK, but now with 8th BA (read: take an army perceived as weak and take on the top dogs). I do not believe there is something like a 'bad' army (within reason, mind you). I am confident BA can blow SW and SM out of the water without Primaris support. No promises though. I will decide once I return from my UK trip at the end of the month tongue.png

 

 

Immer - have you not had the chance to read through all the stuff yet? 

Primaris are tragically useless. 


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Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#73
Frater Cornelius

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those SW dreads are miles better dry.png


Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you are standing), SW are currently the strongest Imperium 1 faction and could be a valid contender for top army right now. This is all temporary though, as these rules are to be replaced with individual codices.

 

I think that's not going to change (with the codex sw will be better). It's been that way forever.

What i would like it's us being competitive and that's it smile.png . Our dreads seem a little lackluster, maybe a bit overcosted, but i like the feel of them.

The furioso was sturdier in 7th than a normal dread and now it isn't, that i don't like.

 

 

Sounds like I may do something I did with 7th GK, but now with 8th BA (read: take an army perceived as weak and take on the top dogs). I do not believe there is something like a 'bad' army (within reason, mind you). I am confident BA can blow SW and SM out of the water without Primaris support. No promises though. I will decide once I return from my UK trip at the end of the month tongue.png

 

 

Immer - have you not had the chance to read through all the stuff yet? 

Primaris are tragically useless. 

 

 

I know. The reason I mentioned it because I am technically building a Primaris army :P


Be excellent to one another, and lean on your brothers and sisters when your patience grows slim

 


#74
Spagunk

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Im digging primaris plasma squad though. So I'd probably take that. Lieutenants also seem good to help with tacs. Otherwise, the others arent much better.

Probably will just use them for cannon fodder/ distraction unit while the adults do the important work.
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#75
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Multi Melta and Twinlas dreads with Heavy Flamers are my dreadnoughts of choice..


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