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Sanguinary Guard in 8th

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#51
Chaplain Gunzhard

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I only have limited experience with 8th so far but... I think if you're going MSU, definitely go with the Librarian.  If you are going with a bigger unit of SG, the Priest can be pretty useful.

 

Basically - the Priest can only heal/resurrect in your following movement phase... so if you have a small unit and they all get wiped out, he cannot heal anyone and since there is no unit, he cannot resurrect either (this happened to me against Eldar).

 

A smart opponent will focus fire on individual units one at a time ...incidentally this is also how to handle Necrons and keep them from coming back.

 

In a larger unit the Priest will have a lot more opportunity to heal and resurrect and the +1 Strength is nice also... otherwise the Librarian buffs are more worth it.


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#52
dread05

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Well, the plan to replace my Angelus Boltguns with Plasma Pistols hit a stumbling block when I went through the sprues and realised each box only gets 1 wrist-mounted plasma. Argh. I do have a load from other kits I could chop up to convert, but not sure if that would look terrible.

 

 

It gets worse than that for the sprues. I knew before hand that they only had one of each so I ordered from ebay 4 more plasma pistols. Yesterday, as I was trying to build my guards, I found out that the the axe and the sword that are held with both hands, simply cannot be built with plasma or inferno pistols. They can only be built with certain angelus bolt guns that match their grips. So you either get cool poses and variety in the melee weapons, or you get plasma pistols. Welp now I have 2 with plasma and two with angelus and my OCD is kicking like crazy.

 

Havent build my ancient yet, but the way his hand holding the banner is positioned, I wouldnt be surprised if he couldnt grab a plasma pistol either.


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#53
The Unseen

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I would consider them much more if their Angelus Bolters were Rapid Fire (2), effectively making them crunch wise what they are in the fluff, a wrist-mounted storm bolter loaded with specialist ammo. Then they just might be worth their 9 pts, and the unit would have a way of at least somewhat clearing out hordes.

 

It's pretty bad when if you double a weapons RoF and they still don't seem that great for the cost.

 

(Since a storm bolter costs less than 1/4th the angelus bolter, and gets twice the range, twice the shots within 12", for a measly -1 AP.)


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#54
Thoridon

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Just a follow-up for anyone who might look back at this thread but I really hope they address the cost issue in our Codex.

 

The SG box was put together when Swords and Axes were the cheaper default options and Fists were the occasional expensive upgrade. It made sense. Moving to 8th that stayed the same, with the Fist packing more punch but costing a bit more.

 

Now after Codex Marines dropped the Fist cost by 40% we're in a weird spot with SG where the default weapon is not only weaker but now also more expensive, while the upgrade to a Fist both increases damage and reduces points cost. It means if I was building a fresh squad now I'd hunt around for spare Fists to give them all, which is not good considering the box has what... 1 Fist? 2?

 

The Sword and Axe are just the normal power versions with D3 damage so the current huge cost increase needs changing. Obviously they need to cost more than the power weapons but I think a couple of points extra each would be fine. Any more than that and they'll still cost too much relative to Power Fists - there still needs to be a points efficiency trade-off by equipping that.

 

Unfortunately with Fists now being so much cheaper I don't know if a points decrease would even be enough for the Encarmine Blades - I think even if they changed to 5pts less than a Fist (which is about as low as they could go while still costing more than the power versions) it'd still be worth going full Fists. I think they probably need a strength increase along with a points reduction to be worth taking again.

 

It's annoying as I just painted up a squad with axes and planned to paint a squad with swords next but having looked at the numbers again I see no reason now why I'd want to put them in play with any melee weapon besides a Fist. The only target where another option is better is the sword against T3/5+, and even that is a negligible difference. Against anything else the Fist is simply more damage output, cheaper and much more points-efficient as a result.

 

It's a shame when our unique chapter unit has its signature weaponry (Angelus Boltgun and Encarmine Blades) both weaker and more expensive than generic options.


Edited by Thoridon, 16 October 2017 - 12:04 PM.

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#55
Thoridon

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For reference, here's an updated chart with the reduced cost for Power Fists factored in:

 

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I also added each option when receiving the +1S from a Priest, as that's a popular character to run with SG. A Priest does change a couple of categories but the Fist remains a clear all-round winner for me at the moment, particularly against tougher targets.

 

The Sword only really edges ahead slightly against multi-wound MEQ when receiving the Priest buff (and then only very slightly ahead of the Fist while much weaker against tougher things). The Axe is the best against T3 horde targets when running with a Priest due to becoming S6 but would you aim SG there when something like bare/cheap DC would slaughter them more efficiently? It also suffers the same as a Sword against tough targets, compared to the cheaper Fist.


Edited by Thoridon, 16 October 2017 - 12:28 PM.

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#56
brother_b

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Very interesting. Hrmmm. I haven't built my squad yet, so I've got some options. With only one box I was going to do mostly swords and probably one each of fist and axe. We'll see now. Thanks for this.


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#57
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Bear in mind we haven't had a points change ourselves as yet and, while it may seem likely to happen when our Codex drops, these values can now be set in isolation without reference to any other books. If you're building units at the moment planning to be as efficient as possible, it is very worth magnetising your models.

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#58
Karhedron

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Very true. I am actually holding off building SG at this moment for exactly that reason.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#59
Indefragable

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A personal gripe of mine is that Glaives Encarmine (made of the super special “angel steel”) really should be Relic Blades (S+2 AP-3 D:D3), but that’s a whole other story.

They also desperately need invulns. My personal idea would be that Death Masks are 5ish pts for a 4++ (heck, I’d settle for a 5++), but again, I’m not holding my breath.

And then the way they are redundant with Dante’s buff...

...anyways, back on point. I am finding that you have 2x options with SG:

A) MSU “bully unit” ideal for overpowering MEQ MSU or weak Obj holders

B ) a bomber unit of 7+ that is large enough to both survive the inevitable shooting it attracts and to have volume of attacks/fire. With 7-10 bodies, even Dreads and such are going down with the number of D3 damage attacks that will eventually go through.

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#60
Karhedron

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They also desperately need invulns. My personal idea would be that Death Masks are 5ish pts for a 4++ (heck, I’d settle for a 5++), but again, I’m not holding my breath.


To be honest, I feel that SG need an Invuln less than they did in 5th-7th. With a 2+ save, a SG hit by a plasma gun or lascannon now gets a 5+ save when previously they would have got none. Drop them into cover and that becomes a 4+. Also, even if they fail, 2 wounds means that death is not automatic.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#61
Indefragable

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They also desperately need invulns. My personal idea would be that Death Masks are 5ish pts for a 4++ (heck, I’d settle for a 5++), but again, I’m not holding my breath.

To be honest, I feel that SG need an Invuln less than they did in 5th-7th. With a 2+ save, a SG hit by a plasma gun or lascannon now gets a 5+ save when previously they would have got none. Drop them into cover and that becomes a 4+. Also, even if they fail, 2 wounds means that death is not automatic.

The issue there is that they are kind of the dream target for overcharged plasma or anything else with a good AP and multi-damage. My experience is that opponents either ignore them/maneuver around them/gum them up, or go full lascannon on them and rock them off the board.

The issue is that for an “Elite” unit they really can’t hold their own anywhere near as much as they ought to.

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#62
Thoridon

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With so many multi-damage weapons around I'm not seeing 2W as being much different from 1W in a lot of cases. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the type of targets SG should be going for with the D3 on their blades tend to dish out DX in return and bypass those wounds. It's one of those situations where 3W models get a big step up but we're not going to get that for normal marines when it's a Custodes thing - heck, it took this long for Terminators to get a 2nd wound.

 

A D3 damage weapon will kill a 2W model from a single unsaved wound 66% of the time. Anything with a fixed 2+ damage will kill one each time.

 

The only time the extra wound really comes into play is against small arms fire and basic infantry. That makes SG a powerful bully of basic units but also an expensive one considering we have plenty of other units that can dish out a lot more damage against hordes (and have more wounds through extra bodies) per point spent.

 

The 2+ save is more significant than the 2nd wound for me as there are plenty of -3 AP weapons out there and still having a 5+ save can still avoid a few wounds.

 

As Indefragable said, encarmine blades are supposed to be relic blades so if they got that statline with the +2 strength plus the D3 damage they'd really be able to dish out the all-round damage. They'd still be less points efficient than Fists against the toughest things (eg. vs T8) but it would justify their cost a bit more. Ideally with a points drop too for non-characters the same as thunder hammers get (as at current price the relic blade is nearly double a power fist).

 

I think it'd be great if they get the full relic blade stats at a non-character cost, plus it'd fit with the fluff. I'd then be perfectly happy running those blades against all target types and the unit would feel like a threat.

 

If the blades remain the same at base strength when the Codex hits I think I might well be looking for 10 extra power fists to attach and putting the encarmine blades back in the armoury to collect dust.


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#63
Karhedron

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If the blades remain the same at base strength when the Codex hits I think I might well be looking for 10 extra power fists to attach and putting the encarmine blades back in the armoury to collect dust.


Considering that SG can reroll all failed To Hit rolls when near the Warlord, the -1 penalty on Power Fists is a lot less of a hindrance to them than units like Terminators. It is ironic that the most effective loadout for SG is power fists and plasma pistols rather than their signature weaponry. sad.png
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#64
durdle-durdle

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My sanguinary guard wishlist:
-Angelus bolters become ap-1 rapid Fire 2, 12”
-heirs of azkaellon changes to something interesting like “when a character within 6” of this unit is targeted by an attack, a model within this unit can shoot at the attacking unit before any dice are rolled.” For example if 5 guardsmen shoot a character within 6” of the unit, 5 sanguinary guard can immeadietly shoot at the guard unit. If I’m the other hand 10 guardsmen shoot the same character, 10 guard can shoot. Limiting it at the number of guard in the unit, of course. Then I think they may be worth their price tag.

Now, i typically use either a bigger unit with swords to guard a sanguinary priest, or a 4 man unit with axes guarding a captain. The person they go with and then target heavy infantry.

#65
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Even a large squad of terminators will die after teleporting into combat once the enemy unit leaves combat versus lots of armies. One of the great things about SG is their mobility... they don’t need to go straight into combat from deep strike. I would like to see them cost less points, have access to 4++ and a means to make enemy hit them on -1 WS
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#66
Panzer

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I really don't want to see a 4++ on them. It would only work against AP-3 or better weapons but would be a reason for GW to make them more expensive (hey they have a Invul save after all!)

2+ armor doesn't really need an Invul save in 8th unless it's maybe a 3++ from Stormshields or something. That being said Sanguinary Guard with Stormshields and Swords would be incredibly cool. :D

 

Instead of an Invul save a 5+ FnP like save and an bodyguard ability for the Warlord would be nice tho. 


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#67
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I'd like to see them get the character wound save too, it feels odd that our "honour guard" can't actually guard. That would make the 2W stat useful too.


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#68
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I am new to BA and just built a box of these (minus the wings as didn't like them).  I made one ancient with a sword + 2 more swords, 1 axe and 1 fist using one inferno pistol and one plasma pistol.  I figured it was a decent all rounder set up given the limited options in the box (could have been wrong in my thoughts).  I plan to run mine with a bare bones priest with JP - so figured the +1 to strength would help (usually just face marines).  

 

I think for my main monster hunters I will build some assault terminators (cause I like the look of them mainly and do not play competitive at all).  


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#69
Karhedron

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I'd like to see them get the character wound save too, it feels odd that our "honour guard" can't actually guard. That would make the 2W stat useful too.

It would kinda step on the Company Vets toes a bit. In any case, they can guard most characters (from shooting at least) simply by standing between them and the bullets.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#70
Panzer

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To be fair, they ARE our special BA bodyguard fluff-wise unit so stepping on the Company Vets toes is not wrong. ^^

However I said bodyguard for the warlord on purpose so they wouldn't step on their toes too much in case Company Vets are staying in the Codex. ;)


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#71
Panzer

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Tho we could add to that bodyguard role and give them the ability to make a heroic intervention move if a friendly character gets charged/charges himself. Keeping our melee units and characters together is kinda a problem after all.


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#72
Indefragable

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The thing with an invuln is that it works in melee as well. And since we’re supposed to be good in melee...

Heirs of Azkaellon is a neat idea, but IMHO, I would prefer to see it work on the defensive end: “w/i 6” of WL each SG model may re-roll a single failed save.” That would certainly pump up their resiliency and make them a unique unit.

I also ascribe to the “angels and demons” take on BA where SG (as best depicted by Azkalleon* himself) are supremely gifted warriors who through skill and will are nigh unkillable. In contrast, Death Company are the “good guy berserkers” who disregard any notion of defense in favor of all-out assault (as depicted by Amit, the Flesh Tearer*).

*Virtues of the Sons/Sins of the Father

Edited by Indefragable, 19 October 2017 - 12:04 PM.

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#73
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The thing with an invuln is that it works in melee as well. And since we’re supposed to be good in melee...

Heirs of Azkaellon is a neat idea, but IMHO, I would prefer to see it work on the defensive end: “w/i 6” of WL each SG model may re-roll a single failed save.” That would certainly pump up their resiliency and make them a unique unit.

I also ascribe to the “angels and demons” take on BA where SG (as best depicted by Azkalleon* himself) are supremely gifted warriors who through skill and will are nigh unkillable. In contrast, Death Company are the “good guy berserkers” who disregard any notion of defense in favor of all-out assault (as depicted by Amit, the Flesh Tearer*).

*Virtues of the Sons/Sins of the Father

 

Heirs of Azkaellon is a neat idea but to me it always feel so pointless because the units that they should be guarding like a Captain or Dante already provide those rerolls. They do pair really well with the Sanguinor, admittedly.

 

Giving each individual model a single rerollable save would give us the same issue that the master crafted rule did back in 7th, where we have to roll for each model seperately which ends up being a huge pain. I'd like the see Heirs of Azkaellon turn into rerolling wounds. Buffed by Dante (as they should be per the fluff) they'd be a pretty solid blender even without any other changes.



#74
Fahlnor

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Using Heirs of Azkaellon to make the Sanguinary Guard more durable is actually a genuine option, but I don't think you can do it by armour saves. I'm not convinced by giving them a reroll to Wound, either - the Lieutenant and Sanguinary Guard Ancient already provide that exact buff.

 

How about something like this?:

 

The Sanguinary Guard are haunted by the failure to protect the Primarch Sanguinius at the last and so, in the presence of the warlord, will fight through wounds which would kill a lesser mortal. Models with this rule can roll a D6 for every wound suffered while within 6" of the warlord - on a roll of a 6, that wound is ignored.

 

Essentially giving them a 6+ Feel No Pain rule while they're near the warlord. That way they can benefit from Dante's rerolls to Hit, the Sanguinary Guard Ancient's rerolls to Wound and still get a nice buff from being near the warlord.


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#75
The Unseen

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Using Heirs of Azkaellon to make the Sanguinary Guard more durable is actually a genuine option, but I don't think you can do it by armour saves. I'm not convinced by giving them a reroll to Wound, either - the Lieutenant and Sanguinary Guard Ancient already provide that exact buff.

How about something like this?:

The Sanguinary Guard are haunted by the failure to protect the Primarch Sanguinius at the last and so, in the presence of the warlord, will fight through wounds which would kill a lesser mortal. Models with this rule can roll a D6 for every wound suffered while within 6" of the warlord - on a roll of a 6, that wound is ignored.

Essentially giving them a 6+ Feel No Pain rule while they're near the warlord. That way they can benefit from Dante's rerolls to Hit, the Sanguinary Guard Ancient's rerolls to Wound and still get a nice buff from being near the warlord.

Make it a 5+ and that might be decent.
A 6+ is a joke.

And they definitely need a bodyguard rule. That's their literal job, but for some reason only company vets get that.

Edited by The Unseen, 21 October 2017 - 01:09 AM.

"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

Knowledge is a power as lethal as any blade, as much to the wielder as to his foe. Wield it well, in the Emperor’s name. ~ Brother-Oracle Zophiel