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How far has the Liber fallen?


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#1
Heru

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I haven't been much of a visitor to the Liber in the last few years since it was dropped to the bottom of the forum list, but I fairly disappointed in how far it seems to have fallen.

I remember a time where no thread would go unanswered (even if it was the lame response of how X information didn't fit into IA format). Now it seems like the majority of the traffic is focused in two threads with some attention in the Loyalist sub-forum. The other subforums are dire, and I can see why no-one would want to bother posting their ideas in them. A lot of threads I've seen are basically just the author responding to his own thread about how he's updated this or that. How is that different to back when we had blogs on the B+C?

For example Logan Storm's Profane Defilers, created on the 22nd of August by a new member of B+C and yet there is absolutely no feedback in his thread. What happened to the members that used to see something like this and try and nurture it into something more.

I remember at least my first IA attempt, it was absolute trash (old 10,000 Legion sized Chapter, multiple Chapters homeworlding in the same system, name and colour changes for no reason and worse) but there was still multiple people getting stuck in making suggestions and yes pointing out what was trash about it.

So is this what has happened to the Liber?
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My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#2
Beta galactosidase

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1. All of the big old 40k boards are slower than they were.

2. The real "liber" material has always been split with Works in Progress logs.

3. Index Astartes articles and the overfiend era were over fifteen years ago.

4. Fandom of all kinds has a shorter attention span and 40k is for making YouTube videos and bad political memes .

5. Current mods.

6. Board Design.

#3
Olis

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5. Current mods.

 

Care to elaborate, brother? If you are trying to say that we are the ones that should be responding, you are half right. We should be, though it shouldn't get to the point where it's only us that are providing feedback. We only have a limited number of hours in the day and there are a billion and one other things that are vying for our time, too.

 

Regardless, I have been trying - for some time might I add - to get footfall in the Liber up. This has included the creation of the Liberalia Martiale and various events to make the Liber known to the rest of the board. There was a time, two or three years ago, when the number of IA's being made were in the single digits per month - hopefully, my efforts have at least pushed that number into the double digits on average. Still, it's an uphill battle. 

 

This all being said, if you see that threads need responses to them, respond to them. I'm not saying this as a flippant reply to wave away critique - we, all of us, need to provide a better environment for IA makers. The Mods should be no different. We should be helping and guiding Fraters in their threads when traffic is low. (Yes, I have noticed that you did respond to Logan's thread, Heru.)


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#4
Donkey Kong

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I don't know how true this is for other people, but I've been generally falling out of love with 40k for the last few years.

 

But I still love looking at miniatures, and curvacious makes an excellent point, the liber exists in WiP where writing compliments a picture instead of trudging through what sometimes feels like an essay's worth of writing of all too often dubious quality. It also doesn't help that The Librarium went away, back when that was a goal to work towards.

 

So, summarizing like the troglodyte I am, the Index Astartes format has too many words and not enough pictures. Also I love my memes, so if the Liber ever became host to an endless stream of politically incorrect photoshopped pictures of God Emperor Pepe Trump and Nurgle Rick and Mortarion funnies, I'd be in heaven.


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#5
Ace Debonair

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What happened to the members that used to see something like this and try and nurture it into something more.


I imagine they either left or lost interest, to be honest.

The hobby's changed a lot in the last few years, and that turns people away, especially if they think the change is for the worse.

I for one find it hard to pick things apart when a lot of even the first drafts of people's work down here is better thought out than the Indomnitus Crusade and the sudden appearance of Primaris Marines. tongue.png


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#6
Brother Argent

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 It also doesn't help that The Librarium went away, back when that was a goal to work towards.

 

As much as anything I think it is this.  I know I for one hardly frequent the Liber anymore.  Most of the old names are gone and most of the purpose we had here is gone.  Doesn't help we are so far into the basement now we may as well be underground we don't get the casual passers through anymore.  As hobbyists the Liberites were always a fickle and flighty bunch and now most dont even make it down here before they loose interest.


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#7
Cpt_Reaper

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Right now access to the interwebz is a bit hard for me so all I can really do is update my IA article from time to time.

I've arbitrarily declared that I'm nearly finished when I might not even be close. I have nothing to compare it to.

But when I get proper internet access I'll be sure to help out around the Liber all the more.

#8
Sete

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I'm a bit disappointed with the direction 40k fluff is taking with Primaris. So I won't piss on anyone's parade. Losing interest in 40l overall.

#9
Cpt_Reaper

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Isn't the point of the Liber for us to create pleasing fluff within the realms of possibilities set by 40k?
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#10
Sete

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Primaris just blew any limit on the possibilities set by 40k.
That's my opinion ofc. But a dude sitting on super space marines for 10k years sets a terrible precedent.
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#11
Cpt_Reaper

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I don't disagree with you. Their introduction was weak at best.

I fully believe that many in the Liber could have done better.
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#12
Doctor Perils

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I think interest in most hobbies waxes and wanes - there are times when there are very many Liber threads created at the same time, others when there are fewer, just the same as other sections of the forum.

 

However, posting comments and criticism about articles in the Liber can be fairly labour intensive. Whereas it can take a matter of seconds if not minutes to say how you could improve your paint style, or what strategies would be best against opponents, it can take several hours to reply to a thread in the Liber; first reading an opening post, then doing extra research into examples from official fluff and real world history, and finally writing the response out can be a long job in itself.

 

Moreover, painting and modelling technique, or questions of strategy, are a fairly objective question; Do It Yourself fluff on the other hand is an extremely personal matter, so a commentator must first get into the mindset of the author in order to fully understand the subject.

 

These "problems" are also made worse by the absence of the Librarium - as others have previously mentioned, the Librarium provided some kind of goal, something that focused the writing of an article in order to achieve a good enough quality to be admitted to the hallowed halls of the Librarium.

 

 

And of course, there's another thing to take into account: outside distractions for geeks are getting better and better - just look at the rise of different cinematic universes and the multiplication of video games of all shapes and sizes; people are probably moving on to other hobbies that aren't quite as labour intensive as 40k. That and real life, with family and work or studies have probably had the "old guard" doing new stuff, and newer members of the hobby simply interested in other aspects of it.

 

However, I believe that we will be seeing an improvement in the Liber in a short time: the fandom is just getting used to the new fluff of eighth edition, an edition that has seen many new players it seems; the Horus Heresy is also set to see some pretty big changes, as it splits off on its own from 40k and brings back other aspects of the universe like titans and battleships; Necromunda is just appearing over the horizon, as well as factions being reintroduced after twenty odd years like the genestealer cults, let alone Primaris and the Cult Legions... The whole 40k universe is expanding at an unprecedented rate! Plus, the Liber has been evolving recently: the introduction of Xenos to the Bolter and Chainsword has doubled the amount of things liberites can write about, and a new organisation, with the SpaceMarine/Imperial/Chaos/Xenos split making interesting articles easier to access - these changes have made it difficult to know what's happening recently, but the next few months will likely bring stability, and a renewed interest in the lore aspects of the hobby.

 

 

 

TL;DR: many things might well have caused a waning of traffic in the Liber, but I'm incredibly positive about where we are going moving forwards. And remember, if you have any ideas to improve the Liber experience, the mods are always happy to hear them :)


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sml_gallery_29004_12090_3983.pnggallery_77459_13226_2824.png The War Wolves - Previously known as Lord Thørn

#13
ALIENAGENUS_Mordray_FALSUS

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Personally the Liber is the only reason I have ever frequented these forums. I loved the discussions and the efforts to stay within the limits of the fluff. It was fun. Then :cuss happened and I didn't have the time to post. When I returned the place was... a well disaster would be putting it nicely. Now its essentially a corpse that hasn't realized it's nature.

 

Sadly for me the focus on the minies side has always been a turn off for me. I hold no ill will to those who favor them but when an IA boils down to a mass of images with a spattering of text I lose all desire to contribute. When posters ask were the pics of the mini's are... well I have to bite my tongue and just walk away.

 

My introduction to 40K was Dawn of War. I loved that game and quickly got into modding it so that I could create my ideal race. The 'ancient' origin of my Void Reavers chapter. Then I got into the fluff and fell in love with the grim dark of the far future and the struggles of humanity to survive with the very idea of peace being a long lost notion. DoW 2 was a let down and for a time was the end of my 40k fascination.

 

Not that long ago I tried to get into the game Dawn of War 3... sadly it was just another MOBA wanna be... in other words a waste of my time. Add to that let down 8th edition and the mess they made with the new fluff which makes any attempt at consistency a waste of time...

 

To me the 40k has become just another pay to win... and I hate those. Nostalgia is about the only thing that causes me to pop in from time to time.



#14
Cpt_Reaper

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Seriously? That's the point of the Liber! To make a small part of 40k yours.

40k fluff is the Warp. You are a minor god...forge your own realm within the universe.

Don't let the new lore destroy your enjoyment of this fantastic game.
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#15
Indefragable

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What is the Liber?

 

What is this section of the forums?

 

 

 

That's part joke, part honest question, and part answer to the original post.


Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#16
Conn Eremon

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As others have already mentioned, much has changed in the intervening years that has had an impact. Changes to the setting, changes among the regulars, changes in administration, so on and so forth. I will say, I honestly don't think that the Liber's placement in the basement has any effect. The Liber was always the place you would go if you were looking for it, not because you came across it. An extra flick of the wheel or swipe of the finger isn't going to deter anyone.
 
But to be quite frank, these changes have not been entirely in the negative. For those who really enjoyed the Liber of yesteryears, the Liber of today is not the same. I can understand if that's a source of sadness. The Liber of old had a lot of value to it, which is evidenced by those who were a part of it and still frequent these halls, such as Olis and Ace. They, among others, were the ideal Liberite that made the Liber somewhere I'd like to be.
 
But it took a while for me, because of other aspects of the old Liber that I am personally glad are gone. I created an account just before the new year of 2012, but I'd been lurking since 2008. I honestly couldn't remember except that it was right around when Soulstorm got released, as I'm also one who got into the setting by way of Dawn of War. The internet's always had the unfortunate side-effect of an echo chamber among online communities, and for a time the Liber was one too. The Liber was exactly what I was looking for in an online 40k community, but I didn't like the environment at that time. Everybody posted with the intent of constructive criticism, but often only within the head-canon many regulars had accepted. If you didn't accept that head-canon as your own, it felt like most C&C was given with a "Don't write what you want, write what we want" message. A lot of regulars got saltier over the years, which is natural. They'd seen everything dozens of times, but that ended up detracting newer members from sticking around when they'd come back to pages and pages of "Oh look, more X again," even when the only criticism about it was simply that it was common.
 
It also changed a lot of Liber functions from their original intent, such as the Librarium itself. Rules and restrictions of quality were put in place, where none were supposed to be. It was meant to only ever be a collection of DIYs deemed complete, but over time its gatekeepers began to tie the meaning of "complete" to standards built in the echo chamber. If you answered our criticism the way we want you to, created a DIY in keeping with our headcanon and met our standards of quality, it was in. Otherwise, nope. It certainly wasn't always like that, every single time, but to an outsider looking in, it was definitely the norm.
 
If you were part of that group, everything worked perfectly. I wasn't sure if I was. Ideally, the intent of the old Liber was to assist members in getting their DIY ready for a shared universe. My own take was that the original author's desires were the most important thing for each DIY, and so the idea of a shared universe should only matter if that was the author's intent. I wanted my DIY's to be a part of that shared universe, but I didn't really agree with what was being generally accepted as 'constructive.'
 
I thought I would be fine for myself. I would want my DIYs to meet their expectations, so I figured I would fit in. But like I said, I didn't really like the environment that created. I understood the criticisms leveled at unknown Foundings or gene-seed, because yeah, most of the time it comes across as lazy writing trying to pass off as mysterious. I didn't want that for any of my DIYs. But why was it a blanket criticism where regulars would brow-beat new posters if they didn't want to get rid of it, when it's almost always been canon for Chapters to actually not know? Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense for them not to know, it happens nonetheless. There were a lot of things that were being accepted as group-think head-canon that nobody should defy, that contradicted actual canon, like restrictions on the 2nd Founding. In older lore, before the increase of Legion sizes or the Grey Knights' dex citing hundreds of 2nd Founding Chapters, there were just two in-universe Apocrypha that gave any details on it. Granted, it was all we had, but it frustrated me to no end that a document that was treated as false or fake in-universe was holy law in the Liber.
 
So I lurked, and took what I could to make my ideas better. Then Rites of Battle got released, and I really got into writing up DIYs. By that point (early 2011), it seemed like the Liber was getting more and more tense. By late 2011, that tension was changing the environment a bit and it was starting to become something I'd like to truly join. I even remember the actual thread that made me rethink my stance as a lurker. I'm really surprised I actually remember that thread . . . Anyway, Admins got involved there and elsewhere, and stated plainly that the Liber was not developing as it was meant to. The points they made aligned with how I felt, and so I finally joined.
 
That caused a drastic change in the Liber, and probably factors in more than any lore change or fan burnout.
 
Don't take this as me coming down on the old Liber, because I'm not. This isn't a "Old Liber was bad, New Liber is good" post, nor am I saying that what I didn't like about the old Liber is more important or relevant than what others liked about it. The current Liber has its shortcomings too, and the old Liber had a lot of good to it. I already mentioned Ace or Olis, and it's because they're very much a product of the old Liber's best qualities, and it's why they always top my list when I want specific feedback. They're certainly not the only, just the first of those I regularly interacted with. So no, I'm not saying the old ways of the Liber were horrible and should never come back. Just that, for all its qualities, it had its negatives as well.
 
I miss the Librarium, and I really wanted to get my Emerald Tigers in. But we're also not imposing false or unwanted restrictions. I don't mean we're suddenly accepting Chapters of ten thousand terminators of Space Wolf gene-seed, I mean that the Liber has more of a concentration on author's intent over acceptance into a shared universe. We lose the value in that, but we also lose the drawbacks developed in the echo chamber.
 
And I know, I share the burden of the blame for the dearth of feedback in the Liber. Thorn's right, that providing proper C&C takes a lot of time. I don't really have as much free time to keep updating every Liber thread with relevant, constructive criticism, but I'm also just not as willing to use my time in pursuit of that anymore either. I hope that by funneling my efforts to other things, projects that get multiple people involved and interacting like the thought experiments or the Liber Cluster, I'm doing my part in keeping the Liber alive. Projects both current and planned.
 
But I don't know. There's probably a middle road out there upon which the best version of the Liber could thrive. I'm always willing to listen to ideas, and I would gladly lend assistance to any efforts that would improve the Liber.


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The Liber Cluster II is now live!


#17
Heru

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Yes, I have noticed that you did respond to Logan's thread, Heru.)

Well I certainly wasn't going to be hypocrite if I was going to call the state of affairs out.
 

I for one find it hard to pick things apart when a lot of even the first drafts of people's work down here is better thought out than the Indomnitus Crusade and the sudden appearance of Primaris Marines. tongue.png

I for one despise the way GW handled the new fluff, in particular the introduction of Primaris Marines (no issue with new wargear, Guilliman or new unit types - all an excuse to scale up the new stuff in the range when they should have scaled up the whole range). A number of my Chapters are currently just sitting there because I don't know what to do with them in the new fluff, of course I could just base what I write on the 10,000 years before the new fluff but that feels a little hollow. Instead I'm focusing on traitors who are largely unaffected and maybe can even make use of the questionable without issue.
 
 

[size=3]I will say, I honestly don't think that the Liber's placement in the basement has any effect. The Liber was always the place you would go if you were looking for it, not because you came across it. An extra flick of the wheel or swipe of the finger isn't going to deter anyone.

I disagree, I remember when the Liber did the whole elevator act the first time, there was a notable loss of traffic when it happened, and the Liber went back up for the short while the traffic increased again. Maybe it's a subconscious thing (things higher up are more important), or maybe they just aren't seeing the section at all because there is too much distracting things higher up. Yeah if you really want to find it you will, but at the same time being where it is you won't get the people will come in by accident and decide to stay.
 
Will respond to more of your post later Conn, don't have much time now.

Edited by Heru, 10 September 2017 - 03:12 PM.

My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#18
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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Would it be a good idea to have members of the liber receive a kind of rank designating them as first responders in the liber? Or to have some members elected to respond in the seperate forums and to inspire said forums?(like mini mods)

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#19
Filius

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Interesting! For me the Liber also was the main reason to register to the Bolter and Chainsword. The open invitation to create your own chapter that has always, since the day of Star Quest and Space Hulk been a thing that attracted me within all that 40k is. So naturally I came here with own Ideas. Buuut … two things changed since then …

 

1. Knowing too much. Hanging around in the Liber teached me two central things: First, making up your own chapter is an art, and as every art, it's hard to learn and there is a lot to learn. Both things make it harder to diy yourself and to dive into helping others diying: It feels more like a big challange. It's like surfing coolminiornot demotivates you to start painting yourself because you know, that for a long, long time, your minis will not look like those you see (and like) there. And second: Sooo many great Ideas have already been written down, including most of the Ideas I had. And the more you hang around, the more realise that you're just rethinking, what someone else already thought. So you think: Why bother and wirte it down again?

 

2. The Horus Heresy. There are no DIY-Chapters in the Horus Heresy. Fullstop. Yes, you can come up with one of the lost Legions, but … that's not, what makes the Horus Heresy stand out. Neither the fiction, nor the game. Imho, this happend by accident. I don't think, Games Workshop didn't expect the huge Success of the Novels and all following Success of the Forge World part of the "Game". But I … I really have to say: Why should I come up with a DIY-Chapter, when I can choose a Legion and play both games and write fiction for both. There are still 10.000 years time, where almost anything can happen to the first founding chapters. The Liber Martiale Events showed that.

 

And I think, I'm not the only one having thoughts like that …

 

… ah and … the Primaris Fluff has nothing to do with me hanging around in the Liber or not, personally.

 

And: To make a suggestion, to maybe improve stuff: Although I not that much interested in DIYing and other peoples IAs, I still have strong interest in talking about the fluff on a meta-level (which, imho is the key competence of the Liber), but mostly do that within the fitting chapters Subforums, which is kind of … not that fruitful as the discussion here are. So: Maybe it could be an Idea, to open up the Liber somehow (please note the use of the subjunctive, twice) …

 

And: Still a big thank you to the Mods here! I too do think, that it's not their job, to answer the IAs. And I also think, that it's not their fault, that the Liber is in the state it is currently.


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#20
Conn Eremon

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2. The Horus Heresy. There are no DIY-Chapters in the Horus Heresy. Fullstop. Yes, you can come up with one of the lost Legions, but … that's not, what makes the Horus Heresy stand out. Neither the fiction, nor the game. Imho, this happend by accident. I don't think, Games Workshop didn't expect the huge Success of the Novels and all following Success of the Forge World part of the "Game". But I … I really have to say: Why should I come up with a DIY-Chapter, when I can choose a Legion and play both games and write fiction for both. There are still 10.000 years time, where almost anything can happen to the first founding chapters. The Liber Martiale Events showed that.

 

I disagree, to be honest. It's not quite the same, but creating a part of a Legion is often like creating a Successor of that Legion.

 

In fact, I'm of the opinion that the 30k gamers have more DIYers than 40k gamers. Most people who play the game choose a canon force. In 40k, that's a Chapter, usually of the First Founding. But in 30k, that's an entire Legion. You see a lot more people choosing a Legion but adding their own DIY spin to it than you see people do with canon Chapters.

 

It's not quite as full-hog a DIY as a 40k DIY Chapter, but it's a much more widespread practice.


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#21
Filius

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2. The Horus Heresy. There are no DIY-Chapters in the Horus Heresy. Fullstop. Yes, you can come up with one of the lost Legions, but … that's not, what makes the Horus Heresy stand out. Neither the fiction, nor the game. Imho, this happend by accident. I don't think, Games Workshop didn't expect the huge Success of the Novels and all following Success of the Forge World part of the "Game". But I … I really have to say: Why should I come up with a DIY-Chapter, when I can choose a Legion and play both games and write fiction for both. There are still 10.000 years time, where almost anything can happen to the first founding chapters. The Liber Martiale Events showed that.

 

I disagree, to be honest. It's not quite the same, but creating a part of a Legion is often like creating a Successor of that Legion.

 

In fact, I'm of the opinion that the 30k gamers have more DIYers than 40k gamers. Most people who play the game choose a canon force. In 40k, that's a Chapter, usually of the First Founding. But in 30k, that's an entire Legion. You see a lot more people choosing a Legion but adding their own DIY spin to it than you see people do with canon Chapters.

 

It's not quite as full-hog a DIY as a 40k DIY Chapter, but it's a much more widespread practice.

 

 

Ach! Interesting! I haven't noticed any of that. Is there a place in the B&C or even in the Liber for that, that I happend to miss?

 

And: Yeah, I also do think, that adding to canon Chapters is pretty uncommon. Many decide for a canon chapter, because they "fall in love" with that chapter. Why change anything? Since the Introduction of Strike Forces / Formation within the 7th Edition, I considered that a great way and and Invitation to introduce DIY into canon Chapters, but (fluff wise) that focus got lost within the 8th Edition.

 

Or to put it the other way round: People know, that when they go for an DIY-Chapter, than they will not be able to make that be a part of the Horus Heresy … that might be a reason to stay away from the Liber. At least it was for me.

 

Ahhh, and: I know from my local Meta, that DIYing is mostly a thing for people who have been with the Game and/or the Lore for quite a while. So: The Game has lost quite a few of the older player to other games and gained quite a few new with the success of the Horus Heresy Books and the 8th Edition – so it's only natural that there are currently fewer DIYers and fewer people in the Liber …


Do you know that while you are shaving and polishing your armour we fight …?


#22
Conn Eremon

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Ach! Interesting! I haven't noticed any of that. Is there a place in the B&C or even in the Liber for that, that I happend to miss?

 

More often than not you see it sprinkled among WIP threads in the AoD or Forge, but it has as much a place here in the Liber (Astartes if Legion, Imperialis if other) if someone wanted to concentrate upon the lore aspects. Though as yet unposted, my own 30k DIY work takes the shape of FW's HH format that I call Indices Legiones.


Edited by Conn Eremon, 09 September 2017 - 08:25 PM.

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#23
Draakur

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Not that my input is worth a lot these days, but to add another voice to the discussion I guess...

I strongly agree with the basic fact that contributing, in any way really, to the continuation of a Liber thread is a uniquely time-intensive endeavour, and in some ways it requires a somewhat uncommon skill set. There are various quite obvious reasons why something being time-intensive makes it less likely to be performed, but I think one of the other big things that's changed how the Liber works is that, in some ways, we seem to have higher standards now. This is of course related to what Conn discussed, but not quite the same thing, in some ways.

I've been here a looooong time now, since '02 according to my profile. I too joined primarily for the DIY Chapter side of the hobby, and other than WIP perhaps, Liber has always been my most visited forum... and in my opinion, there is a marked difference between what was once "passable" or acceptable (ie. Likely to have been replied to with overwhelmingly positive comments and encouragements to continue, as what the OP had was now sufficiently cool/reasonable/well-written to move on) 10 years ago compared to what would be considered so now. People just don't let shoddy or half-baked ideas through much anymore (yes "shoddy" is subjective, etc etc), writing quality is picked up on more, deeper and more complex entrenchment in the universe and its history is more encouraged, to some extent people now expect more graphically in terms of Homeworld planet pictures, system charts, character pictures, etc (or at least it seems to me that threads without these get responded to less)... And the list goes on.

All of this makes what was already a real "labour of love" type exercise even harder to justify in terms of time and effort put in, both as a DIYer putting together a Chapter, and a critiquer trying to help someone develop a project.

Just one man's opinion and observation, but wanted to mention this anyway. It's a sign of refinement in what I think we've unconsciously agreed as a community we want to be/represent... but that standard and ideal seems to come at a cost.

Edited by Draakur, 10 September 2017 - 09:53 AM.

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ATTACK is the only order worth remembering

#24
Ace Debonair

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I for one despise the way GW handled the new fluff, in particular the introduction of Primaris Marines (no issue with new wargear, Guilliman or new unit types - all an excuse to scale up the new stuff in the range when they scaled up the whole range). A numbers are currently just sitting there because I don't know what to do with them in the new fluff, of course I could just base what I write on the 10,000 years before the new fluff but that feels a little hollow. Instead I'm focusing on traitors who are largely unaffected and maybe can even make use of the questionable without issue.


Honestly my first thought on coming back to the hobby and reading about the new stuff was "Well, that wouldn't make it through the Liber". laugh.png

I feel like the biggest change in recent years in the Liber is that we post less critiques, as a community. And a part of that, for me, has been that a lot of even the rough ideas (and maybe even some of the outright bad ones) are miles ahead of what the official fluff is doing in terms of quality, even before the Primaris stuff.

Like that time the Blood Angels teamed up with some necrons, for example. Or a lot of the recent Grey Knights stuff.

It seems arbitrary and daft to me for us to pick nits about things like the size of a Chapter's homeworld, or the use of archaic titles from ancient earth cultures (although I must admit titles for titles' sake does annoy me a bit) when the official stuff clearly doesn't give a rat's tail about anything other than rule of cool.

Also I'll admit that lack of information on the Primaris marines has also got me stumped on how to handle them. I'd like to make my Primaris stuff a little bit different from everyone else's, but that's a bit harder to do when I have no real idea what the archetypal Primaris Chapter looks or acts like.
 
 

Not that my input is worth a lot these days, but to add another voice to the discussion I guess...


I'd like to think everyone's input is important, brother. All our opinions are equally valid, in any case.

 

I've been here a looooong time now, since '02 according to my profile. I too joined primarily for the DIY Chapter side of the hobby, and other than WIP perhaps, Liber has always been my most visited forum... and in my opinion, there is a marked difference between what was once "passable" or acceptable (ie. Likely to have been replied to with overwhelmingly positive comments and encouragements to continue, as what the OP had was now sufficiently cool/reasonable/well-written to move on) 10 years ago compared to what would be considered so now. People just don't let shoddy or half-baked ideas through much anymore (yes "shoddy" is subjective, etc etc), writing quality is picked up on more, deeper and more complex entrenchment in the universe and its history is more encouraged, to some extent people now expect more graphically in terms of Homeworld planet pictures, system charts, character pictures, etc (or at least it seems to me that threads without these get responded to less)... And the list goes on.

All of this makes what was already a real "labour of love" type exercise even harder to justify in terms of time and effort put in, both as a DIYer putting together a Chapter, and a critiquer trying to help someone develop a project.

Just one man's opinion and observation, but wanted to mention this anyway. It's a sign of refinement in what I think we've unconsciously agreed as a community we want to be/represent... but that standard and ideal seems to come at a cost.


I feel like we've gone the other way in the last eight years, actually.

Back when I first joined, if someone posted an idea that the community didn't like, it would get critiqued very heavily indeed. Anything that seemed like even a slight deviation from what any given Liberite found acceptable was judged harshly.

These days... not so much. There's much less intense C&C going on, for better or worse, and I feel like things are actually better for that, relative lack of posts notwithstanding.

One thing I hated fervently about the Old Liber was that it had a tendency to pressure people into basically making their Space Marine Chapter in exactly the vein that the community wanted, rather than what the poster wanted to achieve.

There used to be this great emphasis on the question "why?" in the DIY guide.
But sooner or later the answer boils down to "because that's what I want", and these days, at least, I think it's possible for the Liber to actually accept that as an answer. In the old days, that'd just start an argument.

The Old Liber bred this atmosphere (although maybe this was just me, do correct me if I'm wrong about this) that if somebody didn't like part of your work, they were 'right' and you had to change it. That's certainly how it always felt to me, so that's what I always tried to do.

I've concluded recently that this approach is stupid and self-defeating, and has led me to never being happy with anything I've created, so even if we as a community go back to the old way of picking everything apart mercilessly, I'm absolutely done with it.
 

So I guess to answer the question in the title of the thread, I'd say: "The Liber hasn't fallen at all, it's simply moved along".


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#25
Heru

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@Conn: Oh I agree there was a lot of bad that came along with how the Liber handled things before, I myself raged against the way the Liber seemed to just be a factory designed for making the perfect Index Astartes article within a shared universe (if it didn't fit in an IA it wasn't worth mentioning*). Thing is even bad feedback is good, it helps things grow. There were times that even though I didn't agree with certain shared head-cannon I still found that the feedback helped me look at my ideas in a different light. Sometimes it helped to throw away ideas that really weren't any good (name changing and colour changing for no real reason as an example) other times if an idea was really important to me I didn't just throw it away, but I'd re-evaluate why it was and at times adjust the ideas or even expand upon them, often times in ways that both made them better for me personally and more palatable for those who critiqued on it.

When you don't have feedback of any kind nothing really changes, ideas don't get forged and it's basically like posting your holiday photos on facebook for people to maybe like. There's no real community in that.

Sometimes people came to the Liber not to show off (those people who'd never change anything or look deeply into their idea), but to feel like part of the shared universe of DIYer community. I still remember fondly projects like the Astartes Vocates.

* = Which is why I use the term Compendium Astartes for my stuff, I'd rather people focused on all the ideas presented and not just "what you'd see in an IA".
 

I for one despise the way GW handled the new fluff, in particular the introduction of Primaris Marines (no issue with new wargear, Guilliman or new unit types - all an excuse to scale up the new stuff in the range when they should have scaled up the whole range). A number of my Chapters are currently just sitting there because I don't know what to do with them in the new fluff, of course I could just base what I write on the 10,000 years before the new fluff but that feels a little hollow. Instead I'm focusing on traitors who are largely unaffected and maybe can even make use of the questionable without issue.

Re-reading what I wrote, I realise I messed up in a couple of places. Ugh.

 

I feel like we've gone the other way in the last eight years, actually.

Back when I first joined, if someone posted an idea that the community didn't like, it would get critiqued very heavily indeed. Anything that seemed like even a slight deviation from what any given Liberite found acceptable was judged harshly.

These days... not so much. There's much less intense C&C going on, for better or worse, and I feel like things are actually better for that, relative lack of posts notwithstanding.

One thing I hated fervently about the Old Liber was that it had a tendency to pressure people into basically making their Space Marine Chapter in exactly the vein that the community wanted, rather than what the poster wanted to achieve.

There used to be this great emphasis on the question "why?" in the DIY guide.
But sooner or later the answer boils down to "because that's what I want", and these days, at least, I think it's possible for the Liber to actually accept that as an answer.

I think my response to Conn mostly covers this.

I think it boils down to the fact that the old Liber got used to not asking "what is it you want to achieve", but this new Liber is just as bad. Now it doesn't even ask or assume it just goes "oh that's your idea, how nice, bye." and that's just a massive cop-out. Maybe people need to start tagging "feedback requested" or adding FR to their titles.

In response to the people saying C&C is a long and lengthy process, it doesn't have to be. You don't have to go through things with a fine tooth-comb and write a massive essay on every idea or point, even just picking one thing from what someone has written and giving feedback is enough to get a ball rolling for that person.

Edited by Heru, 10 September 2017 - 09:24 PM.

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My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters




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