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Speculation & spoilers regarding The Magos, Pariah etc


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#26
LetsYouDown

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Well, I finished the re-read, and I'm extremely willing to toss that theory right out the window. I really didn't remember Pariah very well, and in context some of those quotes above don't contribute to my theories as well. I definitely CTRL+F'd to find references to 'Orphaeus' and got a bit ahead of myself.

 

I think it's very possible that the original Saint Orphaeus may have been Kor Phaeron, or even Erebus (could also be seen to sound like "Orphaeus"), but probably not. Maybe either could even be some other Orphaeus in what is apparently a long history of Orphaeuses. But not the current Orphaeus. I think Orphaeus is just a name that sounds like a lot of things, and the the choice to use it may have been deliberate. Dan would probably read that theory up above and go "Wow, they're right, it does sound like Kor Phaeron if you mess with it! Didn't think of that."

 

As for the current Yellow King... I expect it's going to make sense when we get there, but I don't think there's enough in this book or The Magos to really tell us anything. At least, nothing that the book doesn't make clear, like the strong possibility that the King in Yellow is Inquisition or ex-Inquisition. It may even still be Eisenhorn himself due to warp/time shenanigans, and he just doesn't know it yet. Like a Sherlock Holmes story, the clues will all add up, but there's no realistic way the reader can be expected to be able to figure out the puzzle until Holmes (or in this case, Ravenor, or Eisenhorn) explains his reasoning directly to us. It's the illusion of answers having been there the whole time, and a very clever way to write mystery. 

 

As an aside, I was really hoping The Magos would clue us in to how Eisenhorn came into contact with Deathrow, who is presumably an agent of the Alpha Legion. Although now I wonder if he is in fact an outcast of the Alpha Legion? Anyway, I picked up the limited edition of the book, and there are seven freaking snakes on the back cover. I thought "wow, look at this hidden message, there will definitely be some XXth Legion stuff in here! Look at this Seventh Serpent reference!" Nope. Just seven snakes on the back. sweat.gif


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#27
Manchu warlord

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I just re-read Pariah, I totally forgot how awesome the scene was, where they (Bequin and friends) met with Teke, the "Smiling One", and the conversation with lady Glaw.

Edited by Manchu warlord, 28 March 2018 - 04:09 AM.

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Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face.

 

 


#28
DukeLeto69

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You know folks I am still leaning towards my (probably way too outlandish) theory that The Yellow King is The God Emperor.

For that to work it means they (BL/GW) have to acknowledge that The God Emperor is definitely alive and consciously operating behind the scenes. Almost a throwback to the Ian Watson books. ADB liked (but didn't confirm) my theory that The Solar Priest who appeared in The Talon of Horus was an avatar of The God Emperor (rather than being ONLY an avatar of the astronomicon).

Personally I just love the idea that TGE is still operating behind the scenes but doing so on such a macro level that most/all would not be aware of it. I know that is a very DUNE type thing (my name gives away my love of those books) with Leto II steering the human race towards its destiny through a multitude of interventions of differing scale.

Then again I also like the theory that TGE is alive and kicking and fighting the eternal war against the Chaos Gods in the warp and just keeping a side eye on the material universe!

In Pariah there are several references to TGE including one where Beta dismisses the notion that He could be interested in her/that situation as it is so inconsequential. But what if it isn't? What if he is? Why would Dan even bother to say such things (more than once) if they were irrelevant (they don't feel it - but I could simply be projecting my theories onto flavour/colour put into the book).

I know in my head that TYK being TGE is simply NOT going to be the case but I personally just love the idea that it could be because of the huge ramifications for the 40k universe as a whole that could represent.

Edited by DukeLeto69, 28 March 2018 - 07:51 AM.

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#29
Manchu warlord

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You know folks I am still leaning towards my (probably way too outlandish) theory that The Yellow King is The God Emperor.
For that to work it means they (BL/GW) have to acknowledge that The God Emperor is definitely alive and consciously operating behind the scenes. Almost a throwback to the Ian Watson books. ADB liked (but didn't confirm) my theory that The Solar Priest who appeared in The Talon of Horus was an avatar of The God Emperor (rather than being ONLY an avatar of the astronomicon).
Personally I just love the idea that TGE is still operating behind the scenes but doing so on such a macro level that most/all would not be aware of it. I know that is a very DUNE type thing (my name gives away my love of those books) with Leto II steering the human race towards its destiny through a multitude of interventions of differing scale.
Then again I also like the theory that TGE is alive and kicking and fighting the eternal war against the Chaos Gods in the warp and just keeping a side eye on the material universe!
In Pariah there are several references to TGE including one where Beta dismisses the notion that He could be interested in her/that situation as it is so inconsequential. But what if it isn't? What if he is? Why would Dan even bother to say such things (more than once) if they were irrelevant (they don't feel it - but I could simply be projecting my theories onto flavour/colour put into the book).
I know in my head that TYK being TGE is simply NOT going to be the case but I personally just love the idea that it could be because of the huge ramifications for the 40k universe as a whole that could represent.

I also like this idea if TGE being TYK.
But I also thought it would be a cool idea that TYK is Malcador... In the Magos, we hear that TK in Y could be symbolic or a figure that's covered head to toe in flames. Well, Malcador was turned to ashes as he tried to keep the portal shut. So, how could he possibly survive? I don't know, the same Abnett-magic that saw Zygmunt Moloch survive the crash in Ravenor book 1. Molotoch was also covered head to toe in fames, but let's not go over that crap, he is as dead as Horus now.
So, I think Malcador as TYK is a fine idea, and his graels could be his project to create Imperial daemons - nay, greater daemons... A legion of the Damned.

Edited by Manchu warlord, 29 March 2018 - 03:36 AM.

Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face.

 

 


#30
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Re-reading Ravenor, I want to highlight some things from the second chapter of the Lucky Space section:

 

Lilean Chase and her Cognitae were supposedly raided and shut down by Lord Inquisitor Rorken himself, about 80 years prior to Ravenor's first novel. She was formerly of the Ordos, and of the Recongregators philosophy that basically wants to force reformation of the Imperium by toppling its structures and playing cults and what not out against the Imperium to further their elaborate schemes.

 

Depending on whether Lilean Chase has gone full anti-Emperor since, it does not seem unlikely that she may still be following those aims in the present day. Likewise, a few years earlier, Molotch and co were still talking of the God-Emperor, and he was a graduate of the Cognitae.

 

Seeing how we are never clearly told of Rorken's own philosophies in any real, elaborate manner and usually only see him as a bureaucrat, I wouldn't put aside the possibility that Rorken may share some agreement with the Recongregators' philosophy. After all, at his high rank, he'd be privy to a lot of damning information about the Imperium at large and sees the grander picture. Things would click into place further if he let Chase slip through his fingers on purpose, and seeing how he was a mentor figure for Eisenhorn, who in the end orchestrated Gregor's presence during the first chapters of Hereticus, which then led to the Titan run-in, but mostly held a protective hand over the supposed Heretic Eisenhorn, I could see him as orchestrating a grander scheme here. And in The Magos, we see another attempt at grooming Gregor to their cause, which relies heavily on his past experiences in the trilogy.

 

On reflection, I wouldn't discount the possibility of Rorken being the Palpatine/Yellow King to the Cognitae's Maul, Dooku, Grievous and so on, with Gregor a candidate for Vader. Thinking further on it, Rorken's sickness during Hereticus might have been feinted precisely because he wanted Osma, the new master of the Ordos Helican, to clash with Eisenhorn to remove him while forcing Gregor into a corner. In the end he ascended to the rank of master, whereas Gregor was either going to fall from grace entirely or become a heretic whose word wasn't worth much at all in the ears of the Inquisition. Ravenor, his last real ally, was taken care of and now seemingly forced to go up against his master too.

 

Rorken would have the means to pull off a lot to support the Cognitae from high up above, and he has been in contact with Chase at least during the chase for her.

Even without being a heretic against the Emperor himself, the Recongregators might fit right in, and it might also explain why in The Magos, the Yellow King is in places presented as thinking too small.


Edited by DarkChaplain, 31 March 2018 - 06:06 PM.

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#31
DukeLeto69

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@DC nice work! That is interesting (I too should re-read the Ravenor books again). Personally I want someone BIGGER but I reckon you could be on to something.

#32
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Brilliant theory Dark Chaplin. I’ve started rereading Ravenor trilogy too on audio this time, gives a different flavour!
We could well see the king having been perched under our noses all this time, it makes sense finding him positioned as a senior Inquisition officer.
Im still convinced the sisters of Patience Kys have a role to play. They loom large in her life. She is still alive at the end of the Ravenor books which must count for something! I can see patience being torn between Eisenhorn and her lost sisters but being furious at Eisenhorn lying over their death. It’s a perfect final battle scene. A rogue inquisitor unmasking another rogue and having his own team turn against him at the last.

#33
Manchu warlord

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I would like to see the reaction of Nayl and Kara when they see each other again, as they are on opposite sides.
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Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face.

 

 


#34
DarkChaplain

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In Ravenor Rogue, we find out in the "Then" prologue that Eisenhorn, with Ravenor, was part of the raids on the Cognitae, which then also led to Lilean Chase's supposed apprehension, which we also know was directed by Rorken. Rorken is also the one who eventually issues the recall command to Ravenor to cease his hunt for Molotch.

 

For one, this makes Rorken more involved with the Cognitae yet, on-page, and for another, it also establishes that Eisenhorn himself was involved with the extermination of the Cognitae while Ravenor was still his pupil for a good decade. The Magos as an anthology and Pariah have made it appear like Eisenhorn hasn't really had much to do with them in the past and him being so fixated on them would appear like a retcon, but it turns out that he was there all along. Now, we don't know what he did in the intervening decades, obviously, but we do know that at least as far as Ravenor's trilogy, he was hunting the Divine Fratery in a way, and was reported killed in action in Ravenor Returned at some point by the ones in the know. We obviously know he survived, but them being so aware of it, makes it look like there was an ongoing struggle happening behind the scenes.

 

I'd really like to see more Eisenhorn and Ravenor short stories down the line, though. Fleshing out their careers between milestones, and such.


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#35
DukeLeto69

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@DC nice. Must reread the Ravenor books again as forgot that.

I too would love more Eisenhorn and Ravenor short stories, not to mention other characters spread across the series. For example, it would be great to get a story about Harlon Nayl faking his own death and maybe another explaining how the ship with Bequin's body went missing (confess to expecting that story being covered in The Magos but clearly was wrong).

Would also, as you say, be good to get stories from further back in the past, especially expanding on the big time gaps between the Eisenhorn books.

So by several accounts it looks like Abnett is writing/almost finished Anarch to round out the GG victory arc and then his next project (for BL) is Penitent... So we might see it by year end?

#36
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I wouldn't be surprised if Anarch ends up the big Christmas Season release from BL. The best I can see happening is an e-Premiere for Penitent for Christmas, but that's still very optimistic. I'd say Anarch may make its appearance at the Weekender pre-release and then launch for the holidays, and they'd muddle the waters by releasing another Abnett blockbuster in the same window. I wouldn't expect it before the spring slot that The Magos filled this year, with the same gap we had between The Warmaster and The Magos.



#37
DukeLeto69

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@DC yep I am probably being a bit optimistic there. Sad face!

You are very likely right. The release pattern will match Warmaster and Magos but one year later.

Can't blame a brother for wishing though...three Abnett BL releases in one year would make 2018 pretty vintage (for me).

Edited by DukeLeto69, 18 April 2018 - 07:48 PM.


#38
Cognitae

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@DC yep I am probably being a bit optimistic there. Sad face!

You are very likely right. The release pattern will match Warmaster and Magos but one year later.

Can't blame a brother for wishing though...three Abnett BL releases in one year would make 2018 pretty vintage (for me).

On my hardback copy of Pariah, it has Penitent listed as having a target release year of 2014 - a little optimism can't hurt biggrin.png 
 

 

Re-reading Ravenor, I want to highlight some things from the second chapter of the Lucky Space section:

 

Lilean Chase and her Cognitae were supposedly raided and shut down by Lord Inquisitor Rorken himself, about 80 years prior to Ravenor's first novel. She was formerly of the Ordos, and of the Recongregators philosophy that basically wants to force reformation of the Imperium by toppling its structures and playing cults and what not out against the Imperium to further their elaborate schemes.

 

Depending on whether Lilean Chase has gone full anti-Emperor since, it does not seem unlikely that she may still be following those aims in the present day. Likewise, a few years earlier, Molotch and co were still talking of the God-Emperor, and he was a graduate of the Cognitae.

 

Seeing how we are never clearly told of Rorken's own philosophies in any real, elaborate manner and usually only see him as a bureaucrat, I wouldn't put aside the possibility that Rorken may share some agreement with the Recongregators' philosophy. After all, at his high rank, he'd be privy to a lot of damning information about the Imperium at large and sees the grander picture. Things would click into place further if he let Chase slip through his fingers on purpose, and seeing how he was a mentor figure for Eisenhorn, who in the end orchestrated Gregor's presence during the first chapters of Hereticus, which then led to the Titan run-in, but mostly held a protective hand over the supposed Heretic Eisenhorn, I could see him as orchestrating a grander scheme here. And in The Magos, we see another attempt at grooming Gregor to their cause, which relies heavily on his past experiences in the trilogy.

 

On reflection, I wouldn't discount the possibility of Rorken being the Palpatine/Yellow King to the Cognitae's Maul, Dooku, Grievous and so on, with Gregor a candidate for Vader. Thinking further on it, Rorken's sickness during Hereticus might have been feinted precisely because he wanted Osma, the new master of the Ordos Helican, to clash with Eisenhorn to remove him while forcing Gregor into a corner. In the end he ascended to the rank of master, whereas Gregor was either going to fall from grace entirely or become a heretic whose word wasn't worth much at all in the ears of the Inquisition. Ravenor, his last real ally, was taken care of and now seemingly forced to go up against his master too.

 

Rorken would have the means to pull off a lot to support the Cognitae from high up above, and he has been in contact with Chase at least during the chase for her.

Even without being a heretic against the Emperor himself, the Recongregators might fit right in, and it might also explain why in The Magos, the Yellow King is in places presented as thinking too small.

On the topic of the Yellow King's identity, my vote would be for Rorken too.
 

Page 313 of Pariah:
 

 

"The most exhaustive predictive searches and auguries have been unequivocal," the box said. "The threat lies within the Inquisition. Within the Ordos. It is among us and embedded in us. We must find it and cut it out. You say that a rivalry exists between me and Eisenhorn. It is more than that. Far more. He was once my master and my friend."

Page 538 of The Magos:

 

If you see the future," said Eisenhorn. "Tell me this... Who is the King in Yellow?"
Ravenor smiled.
"Haven't you figured that out for yourself yet?" he asked. "He's been there since the earliest days of everything."
"I feared he was me," said Eisenhorn. "What I would become somehow."
"Oh, he's that too," said Ravenor.

IF that particular sequence of the book is being honest (it could be, seeing as, on page 540, Alizabeth was right about Beta being on Sancour), then whoever the King in Yellow is, it has to be:
- Someone Eisenhorn could theoretically become (or, indeed, replace, as the passage implies).
- Someone who is 'within the Inquisition' (according to Ravenor).
- Someone who has been there all along (since the 'earliest days of everything').

Now, I can't see Eisenhorn taking the place of the Emperor/Ahriman/(insert other big-name character here) etc., but he could replace Rorken - either literally (as Master of the Ordos Helican) or figuratively (as the King in Yellow), or both. Also, Rorken is very much 'within' the inquisition, and he's been part of the whole story since the first book.

 


Edited by Cognitae, 22 April 2018 - 03:50 PM.

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#39
DukeLeto69

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@cognitae welcome brother, nice name!

Penitent in 2014...sigh if only that had happened!

Regarding page 538... Absolutely yes Rorken makes sense. Yes Eisenhorn could become Lord Inquisitor (or whatever the rank is) for the Scarus Sector so in effect become Rorken. Yes Rorken has been there since the beginning of these stories too. Makes sense and is probably more likely that Abnett would choose someone "in story".

So while I know I will be proven wrong (which is fine) I still interpreted that discussion with ghost Ravenor differently. I literally took it as "earliest days of everything" which in my mind shouts "The Emperor". In addition I like the idea that the big E is totally conscious but operating purely through the warp and uses people as avatars to further his own plots and goals. As such Eisenhorn could himself be being used by the Emperor.

Also, bare with me on this, Eisenhorn started his career as a Puritan Amalathian (ie. Maintain the status quo because the Emperor had a grand plan) but evolved into a Radical Xanthanite (ie. Use the power of chaos against itself). So couldn't the big E be using Eisenhorn to further his grand plan by manipulating various chaos forces (as revealed in Pariah) to fight against themselves?

As I said that is probably TOO BIG and plays too much with the Lore to be allowed (ie. GW/BL have never admitted or said that the Emperor is conscious, not since the days of Ian Watson anyhow)... But I do like that theory

Edited by DukeLeto69, 19 April 2018 - 09:08 AM.

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#40
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@DukeLeto69 

I like the Emperor theory, and I daresay if the whole WH40K universe was Abnett's that's probably the line he'd go down.

There'd also be a level of poetic irony to that; the only inquisitor to be described as an out-and-out puritan in the books AND who supported Eisenhorn regardless is Commodus Voke, who was a Thorian - the sect of the Inquisition who believes that the Emperor acts through vessels).

A major question, for me, is whether Eisenhorn will survive the trilogy.

 

 

"...hunt you down as a heretic. It will take years, Gregor. It will cost us both. And then, at last, we will stand face-to-face in the King's City of Dust, and it will end."
"How will it end, Gideon?" Eisenhorn asked.
"Oh, how do you think?" replied Ravenor. "The pupil always outstrips the master."

- The Magos, P537

Is this indicating that Ravenor will kill Eisenhorn? Or something more nuanced?



#41
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@DukeLeto69 

I like the Emperor theory, and I daresay if the whole WH40K universe was Abnett's that's probably the line he'd go down.

There'd also be a level of poetic irony to that; the only inquisitor to be described as an out-and-out puritan in the books AND who supported Eisenhorn regardless is Commodus Voke, who was a Thorian - the sect of the Inquisition who believes that the Emperor acts through vessels).

A major question, for me, is whether Eisenhorn will survive the trilogy.

 

 

"...hunt you down as a heretic. It will take years, Gregor. It will cost us both. And then, at last, we will stand face-to-face in the King's City of Dust, and it will end."
"How will it end, Gideon?" Eisenhorn asked.
"Oh, how do you think?" replied Ravenor. "The pupil always outstrips the master."

- The Magos, P537

Is this indicating that Ravenor will kill Eisenhorn? Or something more nuanced?

 

King's City of Dust referring to Prospero?



#42
DukeLeto69

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@nazguire - City of Dust is one of the reasons many people have previously put forward the idea of Ahriman being the Yellow King.

#43
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Love this thread. I didn't enjoy Pariah though, I will have to re-read it. I did enjoy The Magos. Abnett has a way of writing about chaos that elevates it to a primal, insidious threat that avoids the cartoon aspects that sometimes take over gw works. I mean the nurgle figs are great but there is still something a bit Ghostbusters with them. I can kind of understand why Abnett's villains are motivated the way they are which I find hard to see with classic chaos.

I vote Rorken. I think it has to come full circle.

#44
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Rorken... nothing about him is written in a way to suggest anything. I'm not sure I support this theory.
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#45
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Eisenhorn is doomed in one way or another. No happy ending- or even ascension for him, at least not in a way that's public record.

 

This all feels like Eisenhorn's last hurrah.


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#46
DarkChaplain

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Rorken... nothing about him is written in a way to suggest anything. I'm not sure I support this theory.

 

In Ravenor Rogue, Rorken is the one to recall Ravenor from hunting down Molotch. He also doesn't reconcile with Ravenor after the fact, to the point where Ravenor himself doesn't think the trials are just to hold up appearances but that Rorken actually has a grudge.

 

Rorken is also the one to ditch the conclave in Hereticus, and stay out of the picture for health reasons until after Eisenhorn makes his exit, while moving Gregor into position early on, with the Titan conflict against the guy who murdered Midas. Eisenhorn had a history with him, and Rorken has access to all his reports, and his own operatives all over. It'd be child's play to exploit Eisenhorn's grief there, especially when tasked with tedious court work.

 

Rorken has held supporting roles to Eisenhorn and Ravenor throughout the books, but always dropped them for political reasons later down. Eisenhorn's clash with Osma literally got him the highest office in the subsector too, all while being able to wash his hands of Eisenhorn's actions due to health reasons taking him out of action. However, in many ways, he fostered Gregor Eisenhorn's fall into radicalism, and even had one of his lackeys in place before the end.

 

Before, Rorken was the one to lead the hunt for Lilean Chase, and command Eisenhorn (including Ravenor) to go down hard on the Enuncia-researching Congitae. Officially, Chase is dead and taken care of, but we know that isn't true, so Rorken either failed and hid it, or faked the bureaucracy.

 

Rorken fulfills the Palpatine background schemer / politician role pretty well as is, and it is hard to believe he has no knowledge of the Cognitae plots going on. Even if his corruption had started during the raid on the headquarters and Lilean Chase, he'd have had well over a century to fall from grace now. Even if Rorken in Xenos was genuine and benevolent, from Malleus on, he may have been corrupted.


Edited by DarkChaplain, 26 April 2018 - 07:09 PM.

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#47
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Eisenhorn is doomed in one way or another. No happy ending- or even ascension for him, at least not in a way that's public record.

 

This all feels like Eisenhorn's last hurrah.

I'm hoping they don't kill him off (not least because that would bring into question the canonicity of the old "Inquisitor" RPG stuff, of which I was a big fan back in the day), but I suspect that Penitent and Pandaemonium, when released, will be the chronological end of Eisenhorn as a character in Abnett's writing. Possibly Ravenor too - the whole 'Trilogy of Trilogies' setup (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Bequin, and the adjoining stories like The Magos) has a certain... finality to it, don't you think?



#48
DukeLeto69

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Eisenhorn is doomed in one way or another. No happy ending- or even ascension for him, at least not in a way that's public record.
 
This all feels like Eisenhorn's last hurrah.


I'm hoping they don't kill him off (not least because that would bring into question the canonicity of the old "Inquisitor" RPG stuff, of which I was a big fan back in the day), but I suspect that Penitent and Pandaemonium, when released, will be the chronological end of Eisenhorn as a character in Abnett's writing. Possibly Ravenor too - the whole 'Trilogy of Trilogies' setup (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Bequin, and the adjoining stories like The Magos) has a certain... finality to it, don't you think?

Gonna put this in spoiler tags just in case...proceed at your own peril...

Spoiler

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#49
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That's true, but to be fair it's a couple hundred years later, isn't it?



#50
DukeLeto69

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I think Pariah is supposed to be set in 500M41 whereas the GG books are set in the late 700s so yeah.




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