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Rumor: Superheavy/Gargantuan Survivability


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#76
Dracos

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It's not cheese to Soup. It's actually very fluffy narratively. Especially now that it's not CP farming ;)


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9e Raven Guard : 11 - 1
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Imperial Knights : 3 - 2

#77
Panzer

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Sounds awful for tactics. You shouldn't bring superheavies in the first place if they're a points sink that are easily destroyed because you lack support and screening options. Just fielding a behemoth model in the board with no cover and no support should rightly see you punished by it getting smoked as a bloody obvious target instead of soaking up firepower. Infantry is undervalued as-is in 40k and needs more of a boost, we don't need this game to just turn into apocalypse again. Don't want your Castellan getting blasted in 2 shooting phases and being left with not much in the way of points left because much of your army's budget was in that knight... then don't use that knight. It's not rocket science, some kinds of units rely on support that you're going to find in 3k games, not 2k or 1.5k games.

 

It'd be like a Wehrmacht tank commander whining that his Panther getting blown up by a couple bazooka teams lying in ambush is unfair, even though he deployed the Panther with no scout vehicles to spot the enemy, no medium armor or infantry divisions to screen fire, and instead just yolo'd the tank at the enemy which then got blown to hell because it draws attention and is vulnerable without escort.

 

Theoretically right but practically the only kind of support super heavies usually can get is redundancy (not really possible in regular sized 40k games) and enough firepower to kill threats before they can kill your super heavy (so same as usual). With other units you can utilize terrain a lot but super heavies are often excluded from that kind of protection.

Your example of the Panther and scout vehicles is lacking a lot because no amount of Scout Bikes or whatever could ever prevent your opponent from shooting at your Knight unless you go first and wipe all his units first but in that case you didn't really need "scout" vehicles, it was just a matter of superior firepower aka the main problem 40k suffers from and why such a rule seems to be necessary in the first place.

"Protect them" is a nice idea but in a game where the opponent simply has to point at them and say "boom" not a practical advise. What you are basically saying is "don't play super heavies in 40k" since most people don't play at point levels where they can bring multiple super heavies (not counting Knight armies) which is a valied opinion but not supported by GW and thus ultimately meaningless. GW wants you to be able to play super heavies and knows that people dislike them getting killed before they can use them.

 

EDIT: Forgot a word. :D


Edited by Panzer, 30 June 2020 - 06:24 AM.

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#78
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Sounds awful for tactics. You shouldn't bring superheavies in the first place if they're a points sink that are easily destroyed because you lack support and screening options. Just fielding a behemoth model in the board with no cover and no support should rightly see you punished by it getting smoked as a bloody obvious target instead of soaking up firepower. Infantry is undervalued as-is in 40k and needs more of a boost, we don't need this game to just turn into apocalypse again. Don't want your Castellan getting blasted in 2 shooting phases and being left with not much in the way of points left because much of your army's budget was in that knight... then don't use that knight. It's not rocket science, some kinds of units rely on support that you're going to find in 3k games, not 2k or 1.5k games.

 

It'd be like a Wehrmacht tank commander whining that his Panther getting blown up by a couple bazooka teams lying in ambush is unfair, even though he deployed the Panther with no scout vehicles to spot the enemy, no medium armor or infantry divisions to screen fire, and instead just yolo'd the tank at the enemy which then got blown to hell because it draws attention and is vulnerable without escort.

 

Theoretically right but practically the only kind of support super heavies usually can get is redundancy (not really possible in regular sized 40k games) and enough firepower to kill threats before they can kill your super heavy (so same as usual). With other units you can utilize terrain a lot but super heavies are often excluded from that kind of protection.

Your of the Panther and scout vehicles is lacking a lot because no amount of Scout Bikes or whatever could ever prevent your opponent from shooting at your Knight unless you go first and wipe all his units first but in that case you didn't really need "scout" vehicles, it was just a matter of superior firepower aka the main problem 40k suffers from and why such a rule seems to be necessary in the first place.

"Protect them" is a nice idea but in a game where the opponent simply has to point at them and say "boom" not a practical advise. What you are basically saying is "don't play super heavies in 40k" since most people don't play at point levels where they can bring multiple super heavies (not counting Knight armies) which is a valied opinion but not supported by GW and thus ultimately meaningless. GW wants you to be able to play super heavies and knows that people dislike them getting killed before they can use them.

 

Yes, but GW's sales are also immaterial to whether or not the game becomes absolutely cancer in zero to sixty seconds with addition of bad rules that saw the infestation of apocalpse scale games creep into low point games before. Moreover, allowing a unit to only sustain so many wounds in each phase is horrible rules writing that is essentially holding the player's hand like their a child in terms of limiting tactical depth.


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#79
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It's not cheese to Soup. It's actually very fluffy narratively. Especially now that it's not CP farming ;)


Right, I read alot of novels where Mortarion and Magnus teamed up with a bunch of Thousand Sons' Daemon Princes or Sorcerers and a Plaguebearer army with some ancient Dreadnaughts to take over some planets. Those were great stories.
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#80
Panzer

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It's not cheese to Soup. It's actually very fluffy narratively. Especially now that it's not CP farming msn-wink.gif


Right, I read alot of novels where Mortarion and Magnus teamed up with a bunch of Thousand Sons' Daemon Princes or Sorcerers and a Plaguebearer army with some ancient Dreadnaughts to take over some planets. Those were great stories.

 

 

Extremely unusual but if Khorne and Slaanesh can teamup then this isn't impossible either. But yeah while it's not necessarily cheese to soup, in competetive games you'll only see cheese soups because that's the whole point of competetive play. :D 


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#81
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It's not cheese to Soup. It's actually very fluffy narratively. Especially now that it's not CP farming msn-wink.gif

Right, I read alot of novels where Mortarion and Magnus teamed up with a bunch of Thousand Sons' Daemon Princes or Sorcerers and a Plaguebearer army with some ancient Dreadnaughts to take over some planets. Those were great stories.
Extremely unusual but if Khorne and Slaanesh can teamup then this isn't impossible either. But yeah while it's not necessarily cheese to soup, in competetive games you'll only see cheese soups because that's the whole point of competetive play. :D

Haha no I get it, Daemons and Chaos Space Marines go together. The Legions and Chaos gods can put their differences aside to accomplish a greater goal, but lists like those are the only ones I see Magnus or Morty excel in. I would call that a cheese list. Less to do with the souping part more to do with weird list to be competitive.

I certainly don't want something to make those 18w models become over powered and or an auto take, but I feel there could be some small tweak in the form of survival for them.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 30 June 2020 - 06:40 AM.


#82
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How can Infantry protect a Knight in 9e. Put the beast in reserve and bring him out T3 after the Infantry and Jump Packs have had a go at the heavy weapon teams waiting for him. That's good Soup.


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#83
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How can Infantry protect a Knight in 9e. Put the beast in reserve and bring him out T3 after the Infantry and Jump Packs have had a go at the heavy weapon teams waiting for him. That's good Soup.

I regret only that I have no likes to give this message, for it is a very good idea. If you've ever played the RTT Steel Division Normandy, heavy armor is a phase C unit, as the videogame is broken up into 3 phases to simulate divisions meeting each other on the battlefield, with the scouts, vanguard, and rearguard entering the fray respectively. Heavy units are titans are definitely rearguard units, with the actual spearhead supposed to be taken by light vehicles such as armigers or mechanized infantry.


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#84
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You can easily field three knights and two Armigers now.

It's not cheese to Soup. It's actually very fluffy narratively. Especially now that it's not CP farming ;)


Right, I read alot of novels where Mortarion and Magnus teamed up with a bunch of Thousand Sons' Daemon Princes or Sorcerers and a Plaguebearer army with some ancient Dreadnaughts to take over some planets. Those were great stories.

The writing can’t get any better.
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#85
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How can Infantry protect a Knight in 9e. Put the beast in reserve and bring him out T3 after the Infantry and Jump Packs have had a go at the heavy weapon teams waiting for him. That's good Soup.

I regret only that I have no likes to give this message, for it is a very good idea. If you've ever played the RTT Steel Division Normandy, heavy armor is a phase C unit, as the videogame is broken up into 3 phases to simulate divisions meeting each other on the battlefield, with the scouts, vanguard, and rearguard entering the fray respectively. Heavy units are titans are definitely rearguard units, with the actual spearhead supposed to be taken by light vehicles such as armigers or mechanized infantry.
I don't really see single 40k games as lengthy operations though, but more as snapshots of battles that are part of a bigger engagement. It's the only way it makes any kind of sense to me.

All of these comparison are nice and all and make great sense on a real battlefield or a progressive videogame. They don't really address any issues that superheavies face in the game though. You can dislike them being part of the game as much as you like, but GW made the decision to include them and not just yesterday. And until they reverse that decision they are part of the game and should be viable option, comparable to other units.

That means their cost and viability needs to be balanced in the same vein, which it hasn't been for non-Knights throughout 8th.

Edited by sairence, 30 June 2020 - 01:45 PM.

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#86
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Or maybe going with that logic we also might as well not complain about how superheavies have in game weaknesses  ... because GW have made them that way as part of including them in the game? 

 

There are so many abstractions that have to be made in the first place, distances for weapons, movement, model size and terrain omg terrain. If you choose to look at is as a snap shot that's a choice. My choice is different. For game purposes neither is wrong. 

 

 ... good immersion into the story on the board is a lot more fun if good tactics and list building is required. For instance I came up with a 9e legal 12/13 Venerable Dreadnought list last night that I thought might be a fun different way to play against both Knights and Hordes. Would it be competitive? It would wreck some armies and I bet someone else tries it but it won't be competitive

 

 ... because imo GW is trying to discourage waacy list promoting a more balanced approach. If some players decide to swing for to the left of center with all Knights or far to the right with all Infantry then that's a choice.

 

Enjoy


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#87
chapter master 454

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Want to comment...Infantry underappreciated this edition? Hol' up...did you just...ignore that a majority of problem units this edition were infantry and that a lot of people had problems with infantry characters such as smash captain?

 

Yes, Super heavies totally trumped top tables...wait no that was a single unit (the castellan) and even then, every other list this edition has made extreme use of infantry in one sense or another be it the armada of shield drones or the OG Conscript Spam. Infantry in 8th were handed so many buffs it was insane. Pretty sure imperial guard players were shocked to hear that they get armour saves now against marines (as well as orks). If anything, anything super heavy, in fact anything vehicle or monster, ether had to have insanely good things running for them or their supporting elements were what enabled them. Tanks got shafted unless they had fly and the only monsters we saw doing damage were daemon princes because they could HIDE from enemy fire. Just saying that infantry had it very good this format combined with how 8th edition random shot weapons were garbage for handling horde (or anything really).

 

There is an element of what I get here regarding what should and shouldn't be available to armies within certain confines. Should a knight appear in Combat Patrol? No, certainly not. We get to 2000 point standard affair engagements, then we start entering the realm of being reasonable. A lance of Knights is fine, an army group accompanied by a knight is fine or even a shadowsword in an army is fine (could be the tanks escort due to the nature of the weapon). I don't agree that knights should appear in anything less than what is considered standard issue games (which seems to be settling on 2k points which if the point increases are done right, may emulate the 1500 of 4/5th edition before apoc) however they are fine for standard games as they will often not be so polarising due to the opponent having more options to handle them where as in a 1000 point game, such targets aren't expected.

 

However at the same time, I do feel 40k does do tanks, monsters and all super heavies a little raw without any reason. They never feel like big behemoths, more just bulky infantry. Personally, would like some sort of system that would give us degradation but not straight up "now you are at half, EVERYTHING is suffering", would prefer the idea that you could try and target mobility or weapons. But thats me


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#88
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I would never say Infantry was under appreciated. It’s all I play practically. Maybe you meant someone else.


PS: I don’t use much of it (but that would change) if they went back to capping the ability for a weapon to wound a target at double strength. Always wounding on a “6” with availability to get +1 or +2 to wound just pushes armies to be built with assault cannons instead of missle launchers. So to speak.

Edited by Dracos, 30 June 2020 - 07:38 PM.

Hope is a moment now long past, the Shadow of Death is the one I cast
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#89
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How can Infantry protect a Knight in 9e. Put the beast in reserve and bring him out T3 after the Infantry and Jump Packs have had a go at the heavy weapon teams waiting for him. That's good Soup.

I regret only that I have no likes to give this message, for it is a very good idea. If you've ever played the RTT Steel Division Normandy, heavy armor is a phase C unit, as the videogame is broken up into 3 phases to simulate divisions meeting each other on the battlefield, with the scouts, vanguard, and rearguard entering the fray respectively. Heavy units are titans are definitely rearguard units, with the actual spearhead supposed to be taken by light vehicles such as armigers or mechanized infantry.
I don't really see single 40k games as lengthy operations though, but more as snapshots of battles that are part of a bigger engagement. It's the only way it makes any kind of sense to me.

All of these comparison are nice and all and make great sense on a real battlefield or a progressive videogame. They don't really address any issues that superheavies face in the game though. You can dislike them being part of the game as much as you like, but GW made the decision to include them and not just yesterday. And until they reverse that decision they are part of the game and should be viable option, comparable to other units.

That means their cost and viability needs to be balanced in the same vein, which it hasn't been for non-Knights throughout 8th.

 

Those superheavies are perfectly fine as-is because they are in fact quite durable, however to the surprise of no-one when an entire army focuses on shooting a single target, it dies. This is purely a matter of the player not focusing on forcing the enemy to focus on multiple targets by pressuring them. You need to, as simply slapping down a single big model all of your army revolves around is a terrible idea because it completely simplifies what the opponent needs to do to gut your army as you write their strategy for them. For example outside of high point games, it's probably a bad idea to take a Castellan because of its sheer cost compared to taking many smaller knights, forcing the enemy to split fire between all of them and the armigers so they don't get overrun. Or for another example, Smash Captains are good because they are cheap and thus disposable. Nobody would be taking Smash Captains if they cost 400 points and the enemy expended most of their firepower to kill it as a serious threat that would also cripple the enemy gameplan in its absence.

 

Want to comment...Infantry underappreciated this edition? Hol' up...did you just...ignore that a majority of problem units this edition were infantry and that a lot of people had problems with infantry characters such as smash captain?

 

Yes, Super heavies totally trumped top tables...wait no that was a single unit (the castellan) and even then, every other list this edition has made extreme use of infantry in one sense or another be it the armada of shield drones or the OG Conscript Spam. Infantry in 8th were handed so many buffs it was insane. Pretty sure imperial guard players were shocked to hear that they get armour saves now against marines (as well as orks). If anything, anything super heavy, in fact anything vehicle or monster, ether had to have insanely good things running for them or their supporting elements were what enabled them. Tanks got shafted unless they had fly and the only monsters we saw doing damage were daemon princes because they could HIDE from enemy fire. Just saying that infantry had it very good this format combined with how 8th edition random shot weapons were garbage for handling horde (or anything really).

 

There is an element of what I get here regarding what should and shouldn't be available to armies within certain confines. Should a knight appear in Combat Patrol? No, certainly not. We get to 2000 point standard affair engagements, then we start entering the realm of being reasonable. A lance of Knights is fine, an army group accompanied by a knight is fine or even a shadowsword in an army is fine (could be the tanks escort due to the nature of the weapon). I don't agree that knights should appear in anything less than what is considered standard issue games (which seems to be settling on 2k points which if the point increases are done right, may emulate the 1500 of 4/5th edition before apoc) however they are fine for standard games as they will often not be so polarising due to the opponent having more options to handle them where as in a 1000 point game, such targets aren't expected.

 

However at the same time, I do feel 40k does do tanks, monsters and all super heavies a little raw without any reason. They never feel like big behemoths, more just bulky infantry. Personally, would like some sort of system that would give us degradation but not straight up "now you are at half, EVERYTHING is suffering", would prefer the idea that you could try and target mobility or weapons. But thats me

The issue is that your conception of tanks is in of itself is wrong. Vehicle armor is an all-or-nothing affair, as after the first penetrating hit is scored, a vehicle is essentially screwed. This however simply has more to do with the change from armor values to saves being godawful, because that also is not how vehicular armor works at all, as armor either works completely or doesn't - ie something glances or just disintegrates on the armor facing or penetrates. What all vehicles and monsters need is to drop this AOS obsession with rules and revert to armor facings. However that said, once a vehicle starts getting penetrated, that's when its all over. A vehicle ceases to function, regardless if it's a titan or a light scout, when solid shot or energy beams is flying through its super structure: taking out motors, wiring, and crew. Sure a titan is a great lumbering machine, but once the armor fails it's going to quickly fall apart to penetrating shots. We just need to go back to armor values, so until a penetrating hit is scored everything plinks off of the armor plating or shielding with zero loss of performance until something pens it.


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#90
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There's so many ways to handle the issue within the design space that super-heavies currently exist in that I think speculation at this point is more of an exercise in frustration. We're dealing with an unconfirmed leak from an extremely sketchy source. If this were going to be a rule, it should have been mentioned in either of the two Knight faction articles because it significantly changes how they play.

 

 

We just need to go back to armor values, so until a penetrating hit is scored everything plinks off of the armor plating or shielding with zero loss of performance until something pens it.

 

I think it's an issue of game design aesthetics. The design studio made a decision to keep all units the same relative to a single design aesthetic (the stat line, model facing doesn't matter, wound mechanics, saves). Could they have gone in a different direction, kept AV, but made it more predictable on both ends so it felt good to shoot at tanks even if they didn't get blown up and felt good to have a tank after aggregating damage? Probably, but that's not what they did. I'm slightly interested in going down the, "how would I have done it rabbit hole?" when I have more free time, but it is also an exercise in futility.


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#91
dice4thedicegod

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The issue is that your conception of tanks is in of itself is wrong. Vehicle armor is an all-or-nothing affair, as after the first penetrating hit is scored, a vehicle is essentially screwed. This however simply has more to do with the change from armor values to saves being godawful, because that also is not how vehicular armor works at all, as armor either works completely or doesn't - ie something glances or just disintegrates on the armor facing or penetrates. What all vehicles and monsters need is to drop this AOS obsession with rules and revert to armor facings. However that said, once a vehicle starts getting penetrated, that's when its all over. A vehicle ceases to function, regardless if it's a titan or a light scout, when solid shot or energy beams is flying through its super structure: taking out motors, wiring, and crew. Sure a titan is a great lumbering machine, but once the armor fails it's going to quickly fall apart to penetrating shots. We just need to go back to armor values, so until a penetrating hit is scored everything plinks off of the armor plating or shielding with zero loss of performance until something pens it.


That’s true in reality. But 40k is more manga/cinematic in how things take damage. It’s why captains have 5w rather than 1, and why knights don’t suddenly stop working but gradually get chunks blown off them while keeping on fighting.
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#92
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The issue is that your conception of tanks is in of itself is wrong. Vehicle armor is an all-or-nothing affair, as after the first penetrating hit is scored, a vehicle is essentially screwed. This however simply has more to do with the change from armor values to saves being godawful, because that also is not how vehicular armor works at all, as armor either works completely or doesn't - ie something glances or just disintegrates on the armor facing or penetrates. What all vehicles and monsters need is to drop this AOS obsession with rules and revert to armor facings. However that said, once a vehicle starts getting penetrated, that's when its all over. A vehicle ceases to function, regardless if it's a titan or a light scout, when solid shot or energy beams is flying through its super structure: taking out motors, wiring, and crew. Sure a titan is a great lumbering machine, but once the armor fails it's going to quickly fall apart to penetrating shots. We just need to go back to armor values, so until a penetrating hit is scored everything plinks off of the armor plating or shielding with zero loss of performance until something pens it.

That’s true in reality. But 40k is more manga/cinematic in how things take damage. It’s why captains have 5w rather than 1, and why knights don’t suddenly stop working but gradually get chunks blown off them while keeping on fighting.

40k can only claim to be more cinematic for 1 edition, and it's the edition that failed the hardest on a mechanical level if you look at the amount of rules being modified to improve the play experience. Even cinematic is a poor word to describe it; watch Fury and then use a vehicle using 8th style rules. Bonus points if it's a repulsor. They're highly comparable I hear lol.

#93
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  • Black Blow Fly, Juggernut and Panzer like this

WAAAGH!!! Tortoof, a WiP thread (updated: 10/12/20) ||| Order of the Penitent Saint: A Project Thread (updated: 2/13/2021)
[IG 2020]Index Imperialis: Order of the Penitent Saint // IA: Dune Vipers (WiP; updated: 10/17/19, v.1) // [IG 2020]Index Xenos: WAAAGH!!! Tortoof (WiP; updated: 5/10/2020)
ETL_Medal_01.gifgallery_48988_15465_4633.pnggallery_48988_15738_35057.pngsml_gallery_48988_16308_9366.pnggallery_30308_9518_2576.jpggallery_48988_15094_2398.png
(click on the images to see my vows!)





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