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+Liber's Purpose+


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#26
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Were the old ways best?


Myself, I don't think they were. The "old ways" are just what us grumpy old Liberites grew accustomed to.

In another five/ten years the Liber will change again and we'll have another crowd decrying the loss of the "old ways" of today, because human nature is what it is. sweat.gif 
 

In the meantime, questions I've posed previously have yet to be answered. One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

I'm going to be 100% honest here and admit I plain old forgot to submit my Knights Oracular to the Showcase. pinch.gif

Which is quite embarrassing, because I honestly thought I already had! blush.png
I think I'll give them a quick once-over just in case I've missed any obvious mistakes (or in case fresh inspiration strikes), then get right on fixing that. 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, this might take a day or two to fix properly since I need to repaint some helmets for my display Reivers.

 

 

The first draft of anything is crap.  That is an unmutable law of writing.

Make that "The First Draft of anything needs adjustments" and I'd agree.

I've seen a few Chapters that, even at "rough concept" level, were pretty darn good.
 
Look back at the LASC '19 chapters, for example. Some of the stuff in there was fantastic, although they generally didn't stay as a simple first draft.
   
 

But negative things aside I want to try to help with making Liber the relatively active place it once was.  I want some way to bottle the enthusiasm of members like Ace and infuse it into the rest of this little community that we all call home.

 
Before everyone makes with the scalpels and syringes let me just interject that this sounds like Serious Heresy. ermm.gif
 
Also bear in mind that I haven't been terribly active in the Liber this year beyond plodding along with the Order of the Iron Tower and the Stonebound, although that's been a lack of time as much as anything. Retail life in a lockdown is a whole different level of exhausting!

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.


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#27
Ace Debonair

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if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page. biggrin.png

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.laugh.png



#28
Brother Tyler

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...there's no 'BBC' coding for anyone to do. there's just buttons to click for each type of article, world, organization, character, religion, diplomacy etc.
you save the article and change it from draft/WIP and it publishes to the main page automatically...

The issue there becomes whether or not the information in that format is even necessary for what an author wants to do. For reference, you might read this topic about how different concepts require different types of information and different amounts of that information. Not everyone is developing a DIY in a way that needs a world to be developed. World Anvil, after all, is about world development. Often, DIYs are more concerned with an organization, an event in an organization's history, or individuals that lead/influence an organization. There will be some DIYs for which the information presented in a World Anvil format might be very useful, but there will be many more for which much of that information is superfluous. As I stated before, though, the presentation of that World Anvil information is via a format that we can't support here. We would have to convert that into headers and what-not. We're not going to funnel our activities over to another site, but we might adapt useful bits of that site for our purposes. So a constructive follow-up would be a presentation (in another topic) of how the World Anvil format might be converted for use here.
 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Definitely not. There was a lot of good participation, but there was also a lot of bad participation that drove hobbyists away. We have considerable anecdotal evidence to support this, and a whole lot of work that took place behind the scenes to combat the negativity. A better metric would be to compare the quality of articles written at that time to articles written at other times. And then you'd have to evaluate whether any reduction in articles was due to changes in criticism provided or if other factors are an issue. Also, were the finished articles at that time really "good" or "better" than what we have now. I've seen quite a few articles written before and after "the good old times" that were every bit as good as articles written during anyone's perceived Golden Age of the Liber. And while some might point to some or other incentive to participate and reduction in participation, we've already demonstrated that there are quite a few other factors at play and the complex interactions of all of these factors means that there's no simple answer. We're not going back to "the good old days" (which had some really nasty elements to them). It would be much better to forge a new era where we incorporate the good stuff from those good old days and the good stuff from other periods to foster a better environment, hopefully removing or reducing the bad parts to the greatest extent possible.
 

...in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil...

That's really sugar coating things. Let's call things like they were: While there was a lot of really good stuff in those good old days, there was also a lot of rampant jackassery. Too many people demanded conformity to arbitrary standards of format, lore adherence, and level of effort and demeaned those that refused to conform. Too many hobbyists were driven away by gatekeeping jerks. We don't need that. There are lots of things that we can do to encourage participation herein, but we're not going to regress to the bad old days. I know that you're not advocating for a return of the bad elements, Ace. I'm just making my point emphatically clear for those that are ignoring all of the negative aspects of the perceived halcyon days of the Liber.
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#29
Ace Debonair

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That's really sugar coating things.


True, but I'm trying not to cause offence to anyone. laugh.png

 

Don't let my sugary tones fool you - I've little love for the Old Days beyond missing a lot the brothers-in-text I made years ago.

 

Let's call things like they were: While there was a lot of really good stuff in those good old days, there was also a lot of rampant jackassery. Too many people demanded conformity to arbitrary standards of format, lore adherence, and level of effort and demeaned those that refused to conform. Too many hobbyists were driven away by gatekeeping jerks. We don't need that. There are lots of things that we can do to encourage participation herein, but we're not going to regress to the bad old days. I know that you're not advocating for a return of the bad elements, Ace. I'm just making my point emphatically clear for those that are ignoring all of the negative aspects of the perceived halcyon days of the Liber.


One thing I do recall, vividly, is that a lot of the members would come down equally heavy on anything that was posted, be it by a hardened Liber veteran or a fresh-faced newbie whose only prior experience of Space Marines was multiplayer on Dawn of War. sweat.gif

I think that's how I got my reputation as a (comparatively) nice guy, because I'd try not to immediately crush the hopes and dreams of every newcomer that typed up a rough draft, instead of immediately throwing the fresh meat into the grinder. laugh.png

 

EDIT:

Oops, posted my reply before I'd finished writing it.

 

In the Liber these days, everyone has more of the hang of it - there's less immediate crushing of every idea down to the bedrock and going "No, make a Codex Chapter instead, exactly like their forefathers but subtly different. Oh, and it'd better be interesting."

 

In short, everyone seems to have finally figured out how Kid Gloves work and when to use them. tongue.png

 

Granted, there's less activity now than there once was.

 

But mostly the people upset about how the Liber is now aren't posting or visibly working on their own Chapters (hint hint, brothers msn-wink.gif) of late.  So I can think of at least one easy fix for the perceived lack of activity in the Liber - be the change you want to see and all that!


Edited by Ace Debonair, 24 November 2020 - 03:44 PM.

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#30
StratoKhan

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Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.
It’s certainly been enlightening for me.
Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:
- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.
- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

Enough about the past though.

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )
- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.
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#31
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page. biggrin.png

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.laugh.png

 

if all you're doing is 

Chapter Name
Founding Number
Lineage
 

and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 


Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.
It’s certainly been enlightening for me.
Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:
- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.
- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

Enough about the past though.

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )
- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.


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#32
TechCaptain

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if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page. biggrin.png
 
*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.laugh.png

if all you're doing is 

Chapter Name
Founding Number
Lineage
 
and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.
It’s certainly been enlightening for me.
Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:
- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.
- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

Enough about the past though.

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )
- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.


Well unfortunately I am not seeing much of those discussions even on longer written Chapters.
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#33
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page. biggrin.png
 
*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.laugh.png

 

if all you're doing is 

Chapter Name
Founding Number
Lineage
 
and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.
It’s certainly been enlightening for me.
Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:
- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.
- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

Enough about the past though.

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )
- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.

 


Well unfortunately I am not seeing much of those discussions even on longer written Chapters.

 

I think that's a result of GW's marketing.
i cant put my finger on what exactly i think is causing fewer of the more creative types to get into it, but i think their attempts to 'simplify' and streamline the game itself has attracted more people who are more interested in pretty pictures (which  can be uploaded to WA articles) than they are story telling.

i think the big thing for the liber is just figuring out how to keep those who are active involved in the various discussions.


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#34
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Agreed, Even on the Wiki that seems to be the case. Longer discussions involve pictures than words. Unfortunately for me, I am not very Artistic lol. But i am glad for discussions like this where those who do read are getting into how we can engage people.
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#35
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Agreed, Even on the Wiki that seems to be the case. Longer discussions involve pictures than words. Unfortunately for me, I am not very Artistic lol. But i am glad for discussions like this where those who do read are getting into how we can engage people.

ya i'd love to upload a picture of my chapter's chapter badge but i can't draw for :cuss lol


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#36
Sete

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A couple of things from me.
I have zero experience on photoshop, or creating those fancy index pages, a resource where a frater could just pick up and fill would give another breath of life in Liber.

Does it need to be an extensive article?
I do not think so.

You get a colour scheme, chapter tactic, motto, some info about the chapter and any quirks or features and you have a small index sorted, like CF and BT got in the last codex space marines.

Compile a PDF of all liber chapters, and boom, you have a catalog of Chapters that you can read about, use on your campaigns or fluff pieces, and it's a great resource that can be shared around the community.
Bolter & Chainsword Index Astartes for example.

In the aspect if creating a chapter I'm moving away from creating a "snowflake" one.

I double down on the vanilla aspect of it due to the fact that they are primaris only and their recent existance does not justify deep cultural roots or practices.

And this is a thing now with the crusade system, if you are lucky enough to play often, to create a living Index Astartes.

They are vanilla but they fight Orks often, so they might take prefered enemy Orks instead of stealthy, they might start taking trophies, and become experts on melee, etc.

It's an exciting time to create a chapter.

#37
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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... And I have just fully re-read other posts in this topic and a lot of what I have said has already been addressed of just generally dismissed so, while I am going to leave it there, just disregard what I said.  My opinion in things has never been popular here anyway.  I guess it just goes back to my earlier comment of my days of being relevant are long past. 

 

I do still intend on being more active though.  Don't disregard that part.

 

 

I'll be blunt, who cares if your opinion isn't popular? The only way we grow is by listening to and talking about viewpoints that don't align with our own. It's one of the many reasons the world has become so unbelievably and infuriatingly partisan in all things, everyone sits in their social-media echo-chambers and shouts insults and death threats across the waters without having any true understanding as to the gravity of the things they're emotionally expelling at each other.

 

I've had the misfortune to have seen some wicked things that people have done to each other in reality, and yet online discourse still staggers my disbelief and anger more than the horrors of the real world.

 

I'd rather you voice your opinion, unpopular or not. Unpopular doesn't mean wrong either, just keep that in mind.

 

I enjoy going against the grain and making people uncomfortable, not everyone does and I get that, but don't let social pressure make you self-censor yourself.

 

We all need to be able to talk to each other about the hole in the road in front of us, or we are all going to fall into the damn thing.

 

 

I think it's a line from Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This is something I believe in wholeheartedly.

 

 

 

Now to address what seems to be a bit of an argument here, the Old Librarium had it's flaws, granted. More than granted, as sometimes it felt like a grueling trial to get past those who were in charge of submission.

 

Were there jackasses in charge of some of it and who commented in the Liber with their own sense of misplaced grandeur? Definitely, but that's not a problem with the Librarium, it's standards or the community in general, that's a failure to monitor and select the right people for the job.

 

Let's compare LE to the Librarium. Now I bring this up not for any political reason, but to compare things. In this instance I'm comparing abuses of power or bad behavior by those in a position of authority. If I'm totally honest, from my own experiences and knowledge, cops may not always be friendly, nice, or even at times willing to hear you out. Too many people misconstrue being blunt and uncompromising with some real true character flaws. However, most are on the level and are quick to force out those that aren't. You may pass through the academy, but that doesn't mean you'll get a good reception at the command you're posted to and bad behavior is usually rooted in the command structure, not the street-officers. It's why there are so, so, so many checks and balances, procedures and reports that come with modern policing. It's why the use of bodycams have skyrocketed.

 

(To make a complete comment, I think Law Enforcement needs to be more transparent and get with the times, admitting your mistakes and highlighting the removal and prosecution of bad apples goes a long way to restoring the public trust, including making all bodycam footage accessible to the public.)

 

In the same manner, if we're talking about anyone chosen to proof-read submissions there are a couple of things you'd need for a system like that. The chosen ones need to be able to collaborate between them, not to be overworked and have a clear set of guidelines to follow when it comes to submissions. If it passes, it get's added. I think an article should also be passed between at least three 'submissions' people anonymously and rubber stamped by each as it also brings individual accountability.

 

You encourage the submissions staff to work with those who submit the work. You don't hold an elite status, but you showcase the best work in your e-zine or what have you. It gives people something to aspire to without making the level of entry too hard to get through, so long as you keep that initial set of quality control checks at a reasonable level. Let people promote their work, or perhaps have those showcase articles be used in other challenges, like set-iron gauntlet challenges at the authors acceptance. Having a 'Castigators Iron Gauntlet' or some-such. There are some fantastic artists out there and a lot of people work far better within a set of restrictions rather than free reign.

 

In a similar manner to LE I think keeping the process transparent would help immensely. Have the submissions work be public, let everyone know what checks have to be passed and keep that current and observable with any entries that are submitted. Perhaps a sub-forum of the Liber, where you can't post or edit unless you're a member of that group, but you can still see what's being worked on and how.

 

I know that's a bit of a long, involved and somewhat emotive set of comparisons for a lot of people but I find it easier to make my case and comparisons when I get more detail and understanding with what I'm saying.

 

All that said, it's a lot of work to implement and I understand a lack of resources to do it when the community for this particular corner of the B&C isn't necessarily all that big or active. It'd have to be a site-wide initiative and I'm not sure how willing anyone is to do this, especially considering that the B&C has always been a 'models first' site, which I will for the umpteenth time disagree with, but it is what it is and it's not up to me to say what it is here for.

 

 

As for changing the entire site to a different format to 'move with the times', I'm not sure that's a wise idea. It's a huge amount of work (so far as I'm aware) and at the moment I don't think it's warranted, especially if we're applying it to the thinktank here over one small corner of the entire site.

 

Also, perhaps it's just me being a dinosaur, but I heavily dislike Reddit. I find it relatively hard to navigate compared to a more traditionally structured board. I also dislike the activist/PC culture of the mods on some boards.


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The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#38
Brother Tyler

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Note that I split Sete’s post from the original topic in which it was posted, and in which it was wildly off topic, and merged it into this one, where it is highly relevant.


I have zero experience on photoshop, or creating those fancy index pages, a resource where a frater could just pick up and fill would give another breath of life in Liber.

In 2012 I posted a number of templates here. Those could admittedly be updated and expanded upon, but they’re readily available and linked in the DIY Resources topic that is pinned at the top of the main Liber forum.

And for those looking for templates that they can use for Microsoft Word, some can be found in the downloads section (available since 2018).
 

Compile a PDF of all liber chapters, and boom, you have a catalog of Chapters that you can read about, use on your campaigns or fluff pieces, and it's a great resource that can be shared around the community.
Bolter & Chainsword Index Astartes for example.

Outside of simply searching through the Liber forums, the Tabula Astartes has a list of DIYs here, though that is limited to those that have been submitted to the Tabula Astartes. Similarly, you can see the various finished files that have been submitted to the Liber Showcase (currently holding steady at just one page, which is unfortunate).

There’s no way that we could have a single file with all of the [finished] Chapters and other DIYs that have been posted to the forums over the years. At best, we might create a series of files that collect a number of such articles. Unfortunately, many of the articles that have been posted over the years have broken image links, so we wouldn’t be able to post those unless they are updated by their authors, and many of those are no longer active. The mods have been discussing options, though, and one idea that has legs is creating periodic files collecting DIY articles via the Legio Imprint. Those are a lot of work, however. Anyone that has taken an article composed as a discussion forum post and then tried to convert it into a format suitable for print will tell you that things are almost never easy. It’s still something that I would very much love to see come to fruition, but it will take some dedicated members to actually do the work (and this is where previous efforts in this vein have failed).
 

Definitely, but that's not a problem with the Librarium, it's standards or the community in general, that's a failure to monitor and select the right people for the job.

Yes, it was definitely a supervision problem. That said, there were multiple efforts to curb the gatekeeping, and the guidance given was very clear. However, the guidance was met with considerable resistance each time. Hence the ultimate decision to shut the Librarium down.
 

In the same manner, if we're talking about anyone chosen to proof-read submissions there are a couple of things you'd need for a system like that. The chosen ones need to be able to collaborate between them, not to be overworked and have a clear set of guidelines to follow when it comes to submissions. If it passes, it get's added. I think an article should also be passed between at least three 'submissions' people anonymously and rubber stamped by each as it also brings individual accountability.

You encourage the submissions staff to work with those who submit the work. You don't hold an elite status, but you showcase the best work in your e-zine or what have you. It gives people something to aspire to without making the level of entry too hard to get through, so long as you keep that initial set of quality control checks at a reasonable level. Let people promote their work, or perhaps have those showcase articles be used in other challenges, like set-iron gauntlet challenges at the authors acceptance. Having a 'Castigators Iron Gauntlet' or some-such. There are some fantastic artists out there and a lot of people work far better within a set of restrictions rather than free reign.

In a similar manner to LE I think keeping the process transparent would help immensely. Have the submissions work be public, let everyone know what checks have to be passed and keep that current and observable with any entries that are submitted. Perhaps a sub-forum of the Liber, where you can't post or edit unless you're a member of that group, but you can still see what's being worked on and how.

I know that's a bit of a long, involved and somewhat emotive set of comparisons for a lot of people but I find it easier to make my case and comparisons when I get more detail and understanding with what I'm saying.

All that said, it's a lot of work to implement and I understand a lack of resources to do it when the community for this particular corner of the B&C isn't necessarily all that big or active. It'd have to be a site-wide initiative and I'm not sure how willing anyone is to do this, especially considering that the B&C has always been a 'models first' site, which I will for the umpteenth time disagree with, but it is what it is and it's not up to me to say what it is here for.

This was very much how the Librarium was supposed to work.

As it is, this discussion points out the fact that there is considerably less feedback being given in DIY discussions. Given that, what pool would we draw potential article editors from?

The current arrangement is much more “open source.” A member posts their DIY concept in the Liber forums. Other members provide feedback. The author decides how that feedback might be applied to their article. This process continues in an iterative cycle until the author decides that the article is ready for prime time, at which point they are invited to submit it to the Liber Showcase. Guidance for submitting an article to the Liber Showcase, including the standards for inclusion (and links to style guides) is provided here. The Liber mod crew and I review articles to make sure that they are up to snuff (BBCode formatting works; basic grammar, spelling, and punctuation works; any images and links work; etc.). We don’t delve into whether or not we subjectively like the article (which is where the Librarium was failing). We simply make sure that it meets the minimum standards. If it passes snuff, it is approved, at which point it becomes visible to everyone and the author can then edit it if there are any future additions, deletions, or modifications (and we keep a backup just in case there is an oops).

The B&C has never been a “models first” site. The B&C is about the entire breadth of the hobby, which can be broken down into the three main categories of rules, models, and lore. Many members are more focused on the game, however, and the models are essential to the game. While many players care deeply about the lore, only a fraction of those are interested in creating their own additions to the lore, which is where the Liber and Fan Fiction forums come in. The site itself, however, doesn’t give preference to any of the three aspects of the hobby (models, rules, lore). The site is structured around the majority, however, and almost everybody includes the models. After all, it’s much easier to casually look at models than it is to read someone’s homebrew lore.
 

As for changing the entire site to a different format to 'move with the times', I'm not sure that's a wise idea. It's a huge amount of work (so far as I'm aware) and at the moment I don't think it's warranted, especially if we're applying it to the thinktank here over one small corner of the entire site.

I assume you’re talking about Inquisitor_Lensoven’s advocacy for the World Anvil format. If that is correct, then you have nothing to worry about. There is no required format here at the B&C. Any hobbyist is free to use any format they want. If Inquisitor_Lensoven wants to use the World Anvil format, that is his prerogative. And anyone else that wants to use that format is similarly free to do so. Realistically, unless a World Anvil article is “translated” into something that can be posted here at the B&C, some members won’t even bother reading the article. If World Anvil truly has a simple (and superior, as alleged) format, it should be no problem at all for anyone that advocates for its use to post a version here so that others might see its virtues and use it. Regardless, many members will continue to use some other format. The Index Astartes format, after all, is the format most often used by Games Workshop, so it is highly unlikely that we’ll see a mass exodus for some other format (especially if we can’t see that format unless we join that site). Similarly, other formats fulfill other requirements and are likely to see continued use here.

Ultimately, the virtues of the World Anvil (or any other) format are not relevant to this discussion. If someone wants to extoll the virtues of any other format, they should create a new topic for that discussion. I for one would really like to see that format [without having to leave the B&C]. If it’s a good format, I’d love to add it to the library of formats that we have, both in the BBCode templates and the Microsoft World templates, so that other members can use them for their articles if they choose.
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#39
Nineswords

Nineswords

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Hi all,

Some very thought-provoking sentiments expressed in this thread. As I am no Longfang board speaking, a lot of the Liber's history is lost to me, and I can only offer some observations of my own experience with my own DIY Chapter which after six years, I'm still fleshing out.

Relative Popularity

 

It seems to me that the Liber Astartes proportionally in terms of popularity is never going to be as popular as other boards on the B&C, namely +++ News and Rumours +++ and +++ Works in Progress +++, and this is reflected as a microcosm of the hobby as a whole. I love the hobby's diversity, but circumstances prevent me from being able to access my miniatures and paints to constantly update whatever faction I'm working on. Quite frankly, I've come to the point where I've realised it's not the bit I'm actually interested in because of limits of my time and resources. Fan fiction, and its framing mechanism by extension, the Liber, helps me focus on the area I derive the most joy out of: dreaming up and writing small bits of flavour text, trying to distill the essence of the faction I am writing about.

I offer it up publicly because a small number of people are engaged with what I produce, and it is a good incentive for me to keep going – as per the spirit of the Liber, they are welcome to also offer suggestions and measured critique. A lot of the time I incorporate said suggestions, sometimes I privately disagree, but the important thing is I am forced to come up with plausible reasons why I must disagree, and see where I can reconcile that information.


Artwork & Production Values

My very tiny corner of the hobby is working on fleshing out a whole faction in my head and try to bring it to life. It requires at its core, an investment of the imagination, and the rest follows: writing and rewriting, editing, and if you so choose, artwork. I take the artwork seriously, because I want it to be reflective of the consideration I've put into writing about my faction. Whilst it is certainly useful to have experience in programmes like Photoshop and InDesign to produce spreads (hopefully) similar to what you'd expect in the real thing; the fact of the matter is that the Liber as a concept is the incentive to overcome my own failings.

I cannot draw, believe it or not, so like most people here, I am limited in that sense. My way around this is to a. Commission a piece. This involves time to brief the illustrator on what you want to do (currently for me that means coming up with the entire Chapter's markings to make sure they are accurate). This also involves money. The money that would otherwise be spend on buying models and paints is instead channeled into paying an illustrator who does this professionally to realise my characters in the same way someone may paint a miniature in the colour scheme of their choice. If I do not have the funds, then I have to do it myself. I've done half a dozen pieces myself and they were all done in Photoshop – essentially collages put together and re-lit and recoloured. I am fortunate in that I have the professional skills to do this, but I am forced way out of my comfort zone and must come up with some method to circumvent the fact I can't draw. This means I cannot do the scenes I really want to, and things come up out differently to how I wanted them because of said limitation. That's okay. Practice makes perfect. Just like the writing, which is a difficult skill in itself.

 

Perhaps that some people are critical with themselves or with others about the standard of their writing. Creative writing requires persistence and an acknowledgement that whatever is offered is not going to be great. I see the Liber like presenting one's first draft, and letting beta readers or editors figure out which bits require some sort of revision. I have been working on my drafts for six years and counting with my own entry. The destination is not important to me, but the journey is. 


Further Thoughts

It appears to me one way of keeping people 'in' and not be scared off is some way of clarifying that opinions are simply that: opinions, and perhaps making it clear that threads in the thread are intended to be WIP pieces rather than a final version, and that discourse is encouraged to rework the drafts into the best version it can be. Once some basic requirements are met, then there is always the Liber Hall of Fame or whatever it is called.

 

Ultimately people can do as they please and as someone who reads many of the threads, in the forum, if I feel the need to comment I will do so. Sometimes I am content to ignore a thread if I don't feel I can offer something useful, but most of the time I am simply inspired by what people come up with. I love the diversity of backgrounds and influences, and it helps me think about how I can improve my own Liber entry. For me, the Liber is my journal, which lets me think about and crystallise ideas before I hop into Google Docs (and then InDesign), and I can look back and see how far I've come, and what I still need to do.

I don't have answers for the problems, but I will say the Liber is a constant source of inspiration for me, and I imagine, others too. If that remains its only function, then it has certainly met its goal in my mind.

Thanks for reading,

Nine


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+++

'We are the sword of Jaghatai. Had you not created great sins, the Emperor would not have sent a punishment like us upon you.'

 Index Astartes: Storm Sons
+++

‘We estrange our fathers and forsake false brotherhoods. The War God cares not from whence we came, only that we fight.’
The Unbroken: A Renegade Cult of Obliteration

+++


#40
Brother Tyler

Brother Tyler

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Getting back to some of the issues addressed in Grey Hunter Ydalir's original post...

I was working on a lengthy response, but I realized that we're just treading over ground that we have trod many times before. While some of those discussions are no longer with us (or maybe I just can't find them), some remain available.

Yet another rendition of my DIY Chapter (2009) (this link goes directly to my intervention post)
Any advice outside the guides (2011)
Paradigm (2011)
Critiquing and Commenting (2011)
An open letter to the regulars of the Liber Astartes (2012)
DIY Guidelines: why and how
On Do It Yourself (DIY) Discussions (2013)

Note that all of the above were found by looking for posts I made in the Liber Astartes forum with the word "feedback." There are probably other similar discussions, including some in which I didn't participate.

The cycle of feedback and revision (and improvement!) remains. What is changed, or what is supposed to have changed, is the tone. The decrease in activity herein can partially be attributed to the exodus of members that didn't like that shift in tone, who wanted to preserve the gatekeeping beatdowns that were administered to those that didn't conform. Frankly, good riddance to those people. The majority of hobbyists were able to adapt to a more respectful atmosphere, however, and the site and community are better for it. Realistically, that's only a small fraction of the reason for the diminishment of activity in this category. The larger reasons have nothing whatsoever to do with that. Other reasons also explain why many of the old time Liberites have left, having nothing to do with wanting to be "brutally honest" with people whose work they found wanting.

Ultimately, hobbyists should challenge an author's ideas and provide supported arguments for suggestions they might have for improving an article. Once an author makes it clear that they've made a decision about something, though, courtesy demands that we respect that decision (even if we disagree with it).
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#41
Lysimachus

Lysimachus

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If I can put forward another old-timer's opinion, I'd add a couple of things:


Firstly, many moons ago, before I had the privilege of serving as a Mod, I had the privilege of serving as a Lexicanium (for those that don't remember, they were the team that looked after and sought out and approved new articles for the Librarium). And I still consider that role to have been a privilege. The vast majority of work I did personally was suggesting fixes to purely grammatical issues in what were otherwise excellent articles. I would like to say that I don't think any of us had the deliberate intention of creating an elitist or exclusive atmosphere within the Liber and Librarium. That said, I have to agree with Brother Tyler that mistakes were made regarding the purpose and methodology of the Librarium. I made them myself once or twice. I can remember one submission I didn't approve, a blue/white quartered Chapter using a red badge of a sideways-on bull… called the Red Bulls. The fluff itself was very, very minimal. Now at the time I considered this as a bit of an over-themed joke and not suited to what the Librarium was all about, and so I suggested to the author a few edits to try and expand his ideas (a little) and bed the Chapter with a bit more subtlety into the setting eg. change the name to Crimson Taurans or something. Looking back now I can see that maybe I should have just approved it. If the author was happy with a (very obviously) Red Bull themed Chapter, why not? It was quite funny and a striking looking scheme, regardless of whether it totally killed my personal suspension of disbelief, and for many DIY creators that's really all they want. Anyway, that story is probably getting a bit off the point. All I'm trying to say is that it was never the goal to become evil overlords that shut people down on a whim or stamped on their creativity, which sadly seems to be how the Liber/Librarium team came to be viewed and is mostly remembered. We - well, I can only really speak for myself so I - just wanted to help people develop their Chapters. I think it's important to clarify that.


On Forum traffic: we make the forum what it is. If you say you want a return to more people commenting on articles, then do it. Set a trend. Give feedback (it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with an author's ideas, as long as you're polite and offer something constructive). Others will follow that example, including commenting on your projects.


On formats: Personally, I love IA/IT/IWhatevers. I've written loooaaads. Many are in the Showcase. A few are quite good. But I don't think anyone should be limited to any particular type of article, as different things work better for explaining different groups. As an example, check out the Wretched by Gulag at the top of the Liber Chaotica, I just saw it today and it's got a real 'fireside ghost story' feel that works beautifully as a way to describe a renegade force!


On criticism: If you post, you're asking for others' opinions. Don't expect everyone to immediately love what you've written. Be prepared to listen to what people say. Take it in. Think about whether they have a point. But after you've done that, don't feel obliged to change stuff that you want to keep. The author is the boss of his thread (within forum rules, obviously) and if he insists "My Chapter once beat the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels all at once in a straight up fight" then in his thread they did. If you've respectfully disagreed with the author, had your objection rejected and don't like it, then just stay out of his thread from that point on. Equally though, to use the same example, don't have your Chapter beat on the big 4 and expect everyone to stick around and tell you how great you are.


On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it. People may still have questions. (In fact, if I understand right, that's why Showcase articles all include links to their discussion articles, so people can still raise issues they've noticed after reading them?) But overall I'm happy with it and it meets the requirements that Bro T mentioned above. When you view it that way, there are stacks of damn good articles in the Liber that could be submitted!

And remember, being submitted to the Showcase doesn't mean it's finished if you don't want it to be, you can keep tweaking it forever if you like!


I think that sums up my feelings on most things. Thanks for reading.
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#42
Ace Debonair

Ace Debonair

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On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it.


This concept is so horrifically alien to me that I think I might actually be descended from the III Legion. laugh.png

I am slowly getting better at it, though - I did submit a Chapter to the Tabula a few days ago, and might even forward it to the Showcase next time I have a day off. eek.gif

 

I'm also 99.99% certain nobody on this forum has ever thought of you as a Tyrannical force of Oppression, Lysimachus. thumbsup.gif
 


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#43
Grey Hunter Ydalir

Grey Hunter Ydalir

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Definitely, but that's not a problem with the Librarium, it's standards or the community in general, that's a failure to monitor and select the right people for the job.

Yes, it was definitely a supervision problem. That said, there were multiple efforts to curb the gatekeeping, and the guidance given was very clear. However, the guidance was met with considerable resistance each time. Hence the ultimate decision to shut the Librarium down.
 

*SNIP*

This was very much how the Librarium was supposed to work.

As it is, this discussion points out the fact that there is considerably less feedback being given in DIY discussions. Given that, what pool would we draw potential article editors from?

The current arrangement is much more “open source.” A member posts their DIY concept in the Liber forums. Other members provide feedback. The author decides how that feedback might be applied to their article. This process continues in an iterative cycle until the author decides that the article is ready for prime time, at which point they are invited to submit it to the Liber Showcase. Guidance for submitting an article to the Liber Showcase, including the standards for inclusion (and links to style guides) is provided here. The Liber mod crew and I review articles to make sure that they are up to snuff (BBCode formatting works; basic grammar, spelling, and punctuation works; any images and links work; etc.). We don’t delve into whether or not we subjectively like the article (which is where the Librarium was failing). We simply make sure that it meets the minimum standards. If it passes snuff, it is approved, at which point it becomes visible to everyone and the author can then edit it if there are any future additions, deletions, or modifications (and we keep a backup just in case there is an oops).

The B&C has never been a “models first” site. The B&C is about the entire breadth of the hobby, which can be broken down into the three main categories of rules, models, and lore. Many members are more focused on the game, however, and the models are essential to the game. While many players care deeply about the lore, only a fraction of those are interested in creating their own additions to the lore, which is where the Liber and Fan Fiction forums come in. The site itself, however, doesn’t give preference to any of the three aspects of the hobby (models, rules, lore). The site is structured around the majority, however, and almost everybody includes the models. After all, it’s much easier to casually look at models than it is to read someone’s homebrew lore.
 

As for changing the entire site to a different format to 'move with the times', I'm not sure that's a wise idea. It's a huge amount of work (so far as I'm aware) and at the moment I don't think it's warranted, especially if we're applying it to the thinktank here over one small corner of the entire site.

I assume you’re talking about Inquisitor_Lensoven’s advocacy for the World Anvil format. If that is correct, then you have nothing to worry about. There is no required format here at the B&C. Any hobbyist is free to use any format they want. If Inquisitor_Lensoven wants to use the World Anvil format, that is his prerogative. And anyone else that wants to use that format is similarly free to do so. Realistically, unless a World Anvil article is “translated” into something that can be posted here at the B&C, some members won’t even bother reading the article. If World Anvil truly has a simple (and superior, as alleged) format, it should be no problem at all for anyone that advocates for its use to post a version here so that others might see its virtues and use it. Regardless, many members will continue to use some other format. The Index Astartes format, after all, is the format most often used by Games Workshop, so it is highly unlikely that we’ll see a mass exodus for some other format (especially if we can’t see that format unless we join that site). Similarly, other formats fulfill other requirements and are likely to see continued use here.

Ultimately, the virtues of the World Anvil (or any other) format are not relevant to this discussion. If someone wants to extoll the virtues of any other format, they should create a new topic for that discussion. I for one would really like to see that format [without having to leave the B&C]. If it’s a good format, I’d love to add it to the library of formats that we have, both in the BBCode templates and the Microsoft World templates, so that other members can use them for their articles if they choose.

 

 

Alright. Fair cop to some of it.

 

 

Yes, it was definitely a supervision problem. That said, there were multiple efforts to curb the gatekeeping, and the guidance given was very clear. However, the guidance was met with considerable resistance each time. Hence the ultimate decision to shut the Librarium down.

 

 

Fair enough in one respect. For myself, from my own experience, it'd just come down to three-strikes and zero tolerance of the behavior. I know everything is grey and context is key, but for me, if you're in a position of authority we must be held to a higher standard, doesn't matter whether you're working as Security or a Twitch Chat Moderator. The internet is the home of free information and abuse of power. People complain about authority figures and organizations in the real world when the most flagrant abuses of power come from Reddit moderators and anyone who owns or runs a place that has it's own set of rules. If anything, these real world organizations have so many more checks and balances due to experience with corruption being learned over decades and decades of work. The internet is still the wild west, but now it's being carved up by anyone who wants to leverage power over his particular piece of territory.

 

One of the reasons I have more respect for the B&C and make it my home on the internet is because I see so little of that here. Generally speaking the people in positions of authority here act responsibly so far as I've seen, and I've seen no abuse of position, outside of some personal disagreements with Moderators and admins over philosophical and interpretive differences of the rules or guidelines. On that note, everyone should be encouraged to question the rules, but breaking them or going against them has to be dealt with quickly and without hesitation.

 

 

As it is, this discussion points out the fact that there is considerably less feedback being given in DIY discussions. Given that, what pool would we draw potential article editors from?

 

 

That's not the right question to be asking. You can't change your recruitment pool, it's always fallible human beings, that's never going to change.

 

In my mind, it works as thus.

 

Two things, you have a head of the department who is accountable to the rest of the Admins and Mods, and you have the other submissions guys have the 'rules' for the scope and limit of their authority beaten into them over a short probationary period where they work under the head of the department.

 

You have a certain time frame under which X amount of submissions are allowed to be submitted and the department has X amount of time to get all of them assessed and returned to their author with either a approval or rejection. If someone can't get an article assessed within X time-limit, you apologize to the author and hand it to the department head to get it done, who can then delegate it to someone who is free, who they believe can get it done within the time buffer between article submission and an updating of the 'Liber' registry.

 

Apologies, I think I'm theory crafting a bit too much. To put it simply, make the rules harder for those in authority, and have the consequences for misuse be far more dire. You get three strikes, you're gone and can never come back, done and dusted. This doesn't work for everyone, especially the vast majority of the civilian world, but if you're going to leverage any sort of authority over another person in any way, you need to be held to a standard.

 

 

To bring it back around to the forum itself, I'm not sure. The trick is not necessarily increased engagement, that's always what you're driving for overall but what we're seeing right now in the Liber is a critically low population. Engagement is one thing, but you have had a very small core of very engaged individuals who for a lack of a better way to put it, have nothing to do. They have their own work and very few people to engage with over it.

 

While I value everyone who comments on my work, without an actual issue to discuss with construction of my work, I already know the attitudes and views of a lot of the people who I can reliably predict are going to post on my work. I know who favors Training Cadres and who doesn't care. I know who argues more for 'doing what you want' and who wants you to 'follow the community guidelines'. This doesn't make their help and criticism any less useful or valued, but it does mean that a lot of the time you will have that thought of before you even post. What that means is that individual has less to comment on and as a result, less is gained though meaningful interaction.

 

What we need is to somehow build the population of people who regularly come to the Liber. Yeah I might be stating the obvious here but stick with me. I don't think that's going to be gotten by lowering the bar for entry, as it were.

 

If you have no standards and nothing to drive people to work on their articles, people will just blow through and forget about it.

 

I only have a couple of ideas on this, really.

 

Bring the gaming side in. Create online tournaments, painting competitions and army builds that either require or reward people to have a fleshed out Liber-stamped/worked through article along with their list/models.

 

Hold regular painting competition showcases for Liber submitted chapters, selecting the best built and painted models submitted to be added to the submitted article as a resource.

 

Collaborate with other sites. Now this one may be a bit of a problem admittedly, but having a working relationship with say, Dakka Dakka, or Spikey Bitz, 3++ or whomever you wish to have you to spread the message of competition and showcasing of talent in multiple locations will speak to the ego and competitive nature in many people in the community.

 

Have painting comps similar to above, but ones where you get a high-profile modeler in the community create something for a DIY chapter in the Liber, then put the wider community up against them. It'd be a more elite version of the above suggestion, but perhaps have people pay it forward in that if they win, any ad-revenue or however you want to monetize it will go to a charity nominated by the influencer.

 

Or alternatively have the high profile individual as a judge for DIY chapter model submissions.

 

 

Unfortunately all of this requires work, pretty consistently and pushing, which requires time and money to be funneled into it.

 

 

The B&C has never been a “models first” site. 

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's not carried through at all in any aspect and at absolute best debatable, at worst revisionist. It's arguable if you say 'game first', but one of those is reliant on the other, so it's a moot point to argue.

 

The Lore is only carried forward on this site as a framing convention for the models as they pertain to the game. That's fine, the game is the primary source of people coming in to the hobby, but without the background setting and worldbuilding around it, it wouldn't be the 40k game we know and have been involved in for the longest time.

 

Most of the faction specific forums are almost primarily focused on list building, which again is fine, but if you just take a single look at the layout and general by-line of the entire site you can see where the focus is. Modelling comes first, right at the top, the first thing you see when you load up the main page. Then come your faction specific forums which are mostly game-focused.

 

The Liber is third from the bottom of the entire page. We're below Xenos, in what was at one point a 'power armour' forum, even below 'other games'.

 

Do I think the Lore should be the most pushed and front-facing aspect of the hobby? If it was just to appeal to others like me, absolutely.

 

However I'm not narcissistic enough to believe my view is the only one that matters. The hobby is a broad spectrum of interests that overlap within 40k, so having the board put the most widely followed aspects of the hobby front and center when you first arrive is not a bad thing and I don't have a problem with it. What I'm pushing back against is the idea that the Lore is even mentioned in the same breath as the other two aspects of the game, as modelling and gaming are intrinsically linked. Hell, you get points in game for having a fully painted army. No one would even think of gaining points for say, fleshing out your DIY force with at least a name and a basic synopsis of who they are.

 

I really just can't agree that the Lore is treated with any degree of equity, which is not something I'd ask for either, but it's not truly the one of three parts of the hobby, it's the frame the other two parts sit in that people see. They judge the artwork within but not the frame it's been put in.

 

 

Look don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anyone, nor am I saying you're doing it wrong. You're not, I completely agree putting the most niche part of the entire 40k fandom on the same pedestal as the real crowd draw, or your main moneymaker, is not a wise choice unless done very specifically to drive a very particular strategy.

 

That said, with the rise of YouTube influencers like Occulus Imperia, Leutin, Wolf Lord Rho, Baldermort and even MajorKill, there's an entire slice of the 40k audience on YouTube that is being catered to but only in the one format. Imagine what would happen if all those people who love to listen to and discuss the Lore had a place to go, eh?

 

 

To me B&C is described as thus:

 

40k! Armies! Models! 40k! 

 

.... and Lore too!

 

 

I'd be willing to poll or survey the membership as to who even knows the Liber Astartes even exists and what it's purpose could be.

 

I'm also willing to say this is my own personal interpretation of everything and not representative of the greater whole. That said, I think what I'm interpreting isn't too far from what's being marketed to me, which also bears some accountability.

 

 

 

This all loops back around to wider community engagement. I do think you'd build a much greater emotional attachment to the B&C if you develop your army as well as the lore for your particular army here on this site, with the rest of the community.

 

Honestly I think this is not anyone's fault, I'm not here to push this as anyone's personal responsibility. I think on this as a wider cultural phenomenon. Without getting too political, western society has seen a shift to leftwards over the last twenty years or so and become far more 'the good of the many' and not enough 'the needs of the few'. I personally subscribe to the very traditionalist values of strengthening the individual in order to strengthen the wider community. A little bit of this is definitely a commentary on the lack of the Librarium, as toxic and gate-keeper-ish as it could be, it definitely had the effect of investing an individual who was stubborn enough to come back for more. Hardship, challenge and arguably suffering leads to stronger individuals.

 

A part of that here in this case is to strengthen individual members ties to the B&C, to build them into a strong and varied member of the B&C community, not to let them post what they like without any draw to return.

 

 

On the flipside of the above coin you could quite easily have the Liber at the top of the list, especially since it's a relatively small set of boards. Merge the three larger categories into +The Liber+ and have the one-row header sit between Adeptus Astartes and Forces of Mankind. I can bet you'd get more traffic, but I can't predict whether it'd harm traffic to other boards, though I doubt it.

 

Either that or, radically, break up The Liber entirely. Move the Liber Astartes board into Adeptus Astartes, same with other faction boards, and then leave whatever doesn't fit in a suitably renamed section along with Fan Fiction and Black Library. Then simply make those boards a place that people can walk through, post their list in one spot and the lore in another and easily keep things contained and visible to the author. Keep it as a low-barrier to entry destination for people to discuss the Lore behind their army lists.

 

Other than that, your choices are fairly limited.

 

 

I feel like I'm trying to get something across in feeling but can't find the adequate words for it, and that I'm coming across as being too combative or hyperbolic. I can't put my finger on how to describe exactly what my thought process is. Maybe with enough rambling everyone will understand, so I apologize for this word-soup of a post and please, I might push hard with how I discuss things out but I'm not actually trying to offend or insult anyone or their work. I think if I take a week off work and stop posting at the tail end of a shift, when things are weighing on me might be a better approach with this topic in particular. I'll think on it.


The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#44
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it.


This concept is so horrifically alien to me that I think I might actually be descended from the III Legion. laugh.png

I am slowly getting better at it, though - I did submit a Chapter to the Tabula a few days ago, and might even forward it to the Showcase next time I have a day off. eek.gif

 

I'm also 99.99% certain nobody on this forum has ever thought of you as a Tyrannical force of Oppression, Lysimachus. thumbsup.gif
 

 

 

It might blow everyone's mind, but I totally agree with Ace here. That's sarcasm, I usually tend to agree with him, funny as I'm generally unfriendly and he's friendly as hell.

 

Lysimachus you are far from the tyrannical stereotype that is being discussed here. At that point in time the community standards were higher so rejecting a 'joke' chapter I think is fair play.

 

Remember that fools seldom doubt themselves. The idiots of the world are perpetually sure of themselves and their actions and those who have a mark of intelligence are usually further down the path of low-self esteem, worth and doubting the quality of their own work. While it's good as someone who has a measure of authority to qualify our own decisions and reasonings, to second guess yourself this far down the line is nonesense. If you made a mistake, it's a teachable moment and you learn from it, making sure you take the right lessons away, and move forward.

 

Luckily, it was the Red Bulls (I remember that chapter, bloody hell. I don't think I was particularly impressed either), and you didn't hurt someone, or worse allow someone else to be hurt as a result. I think you can safely sleep at night with that one. msn-wink.gif

 

But I understand where you're coming from. We all do, I think. You're in good company.


Edited by Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch, 05 December 2020 - 02:27 AM.
no politics of any kind

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The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#45
Ace Debonair

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It might blow everyone's mind, but I totally agree with Ace here. That's sarcasm, I usually tend to agree with him, funny as I'm generally unfriendly and he's friendly as hell.

 

Hell is notoriously unfriendly, from all the reviews I've read of the place. tongue.png

 

 

Bring the gaming side in. Create online tournaments, painting competitions and army builds that either require or reward people to have a fleshed out Liber-stamped/worked through article along with their list/models.


It's funny you should say that - In my head I've been kicking an idea around for a thread that can be roughly summed up as "Liber Astartes kill-teams running around and hunting monsters, via the medium of play-by-post moves on a virtual battlefield".

Broadly, the idea was taken from a game held long ago (almost a decade back, I think) in the Space Wolves forum, where packs of marines went out hunting Fenrisian Kraken, and there was much telling of sagas and stories before and after moves. Granted, it's the Space Wolves, so a lot of it was about how drunk they were, but the idea could easily be leveraged for a Liber task force, replacing "staggering from the inhuman amount of ale consumed" to "behaving appropriately for their Chapter and/or adjusting their behaviour to better suit the Legio's requirements". biggrin.png

Adding a requirement for people to have posted and/or recently updated information for the Chapter they're representing wouldn't be too hard.
 
Of course I'd have to work out all the rules, and the terrain, and all the other minutiae of setting up such an endeavour, which will probably take me a whole year or two, but the idea's been there for a little while.


Edited by Ace Debonair, 28 November 2020 - 02:52 AM.

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#46
Machine God

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Ooh I come back from a long absence to have a check of The Liber and find a new thread, nice!

 

Some lots of points about a silent Liber.

 

I'm more a fan of IA posts but that is my preference. But I do need to wrench my chapter lore/fluff out of my noggin and down onto the screen... Maybe some day. Kudos to braver souls.

 

The bit I don't like is how the B&C got changed around and Lore isn't at the bottom of the page anymore. I go to where I think Amicus is and find The Forge and Rules is at the bottom. No doubt Brother Tyler can post a link to enlighten me.

 

Keep up the good work. 

 

(Edit: Typo)


Edited by Machine God, 24 December 2020 - 06:49 PM.

"Borg to the Max!" "Destroy All Flesh!"
 
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The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

-James Nicoll


#47
Brother Tyler

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The bit I don't like is how the B&C got changed around and Lore isn't at the bottom of the page anymore. I go to where I think Amicus is and find The Forge and Rules is at the bottom. No doubt Brother Tyler can post a link to enlighten me.


link

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#48
Brother Tyler

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Note that I split the tangential discussion about the idea(s) for a play-by-post type of Liber participation into a separate topic here.

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