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Tabletop Tactics - GK vs Black Legion

Grey Knights Black Legion Tactica

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#1
Reskin

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Tabletop Tactics released a tactica video a few days ago, Grey Knights vs Black Legion.

 

Laurence, aka Spider is a very competitive player, he heads up the site and the YouTube channel with a team. He plays at LVO, ITC and the GT's around the world. Very experience guy.

 

I'm not sure if that particular video was released on free to air, YouTube. Because I've subbed to them I watch on demand. But he was going over his list and the reasons for taking certain things. Very good commentary and very in depth analysis on where the GK's are at, at the moment.

 

Spider, generally always wins against his opponent, regardless of what army he fields, he's a great tactician. It's worth checking out, as will all of their batreps and videos they release. I agree with much of what he says and the way he plays GK.

 

Take it with a pinch of salt though. But worth checking out.


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#2
The Woodsman

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I've only had the time to watch the intro/list analysis, but I agree, Lawrence's knowledge and skill with Grey Knights (and the game in general) is always very insightful. His "coaching" is a big part of how I learned to play Grey Knights myself, and I now find myself making certain choices that are then confirmed in a following Battle report. Tactica reports are usually what I prefer when the Spider is involved, the ideas and tactics are fully developed.

I think where his skill really lies is his ability to think outside the box and use armies/units that aren't generally thought of as strong or useful but in a way that catches people off guard and "breaks" the meta. Let's not forget he pretty much came up with the "Double Paladin Bomb" list, coming second (actually tying for first) at the Bournemouth GT earlier in 2020 (or late 2019? I'm unsure but in actual fact before Ritual of the Damned was released).

I should manage to watch the game later today, I'd be happy to discuss it with you at that time, Reskin.
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#3
Reskin

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Well it's interesting when I was talking with my mate, about our current meta and where GK's are. I said a lot of things about the GK that Goonhammer recently touched on and Lawrence as well. Which just confirmed that I'm on the same line of thought as these "pros." Which gives me some confidence that I'm finding my touch again after being away for a long time.

 

I identified similarities with Lawrence's and Goonhammer's list, that I was already leaning towards. Some thing's I don't agree with, and that comes down to meta and the list, and how you use your army.

 

A few people including myself mentioned in the comments that you cant use armoured resilience on the GMNDK, as its infantry only, and the NDK is a vehicle. But that was inconsequential as it only got fired at for 1 turn. And didn't win him the game.

 

I also don't like that he ran the 3 dreads as close combat, but perhaps it worked well with his list, he did use the aura stratagem onto the Dread though giving 6" reroll 1's. And perhaps they soaked fire that would of went into the paladins and terminators had the dreads not been there.

 

I do see the upside of -3AP flat 3dmg ccw. But against people I play, 8wound dreads wont make it across the board before they die a horrible death. Once I move into 2000pt games again, I would take 3 dreads, just equip them differently.

 

I like that he took interceptors, I like that he took the BC, as many of us have spoken about in threads lately. And you got to see the utility. Also the librarian, He used tide of escalation more often then not. I think he said he had points spare for psycannons and he was able to use the tide of convergence once I think for some extra damage.

 

In the later rounds he didn't bother with Tide of Fury once all his units were in combat, which is interesting. He prefers the 2 wound smites. And you can seem them doing consistent damage which was nice to see.

 

Very CP hungry, the list was, he mentioned it somewhat throughout the video. He didn't take empyrean domination for the 1CP a turn but in future he would. What's funny is, the fact we can't take extra warlord traits and what not, he really only spent 1 extra CP before the game, and didn't even need/get to use the augurium scrolls. Nor did he need first to the fray. In fact, he failed, re rolled, and failed again the two charges that turn. So even though he only took 1 detachment, and didn't burn like 3-4 CP before the game like other armies are currently doing, he was empty by the 2nd turn.
 

So it's just interesting to see other people use Grey Knights, I'll even give a shout out to Icosiel here, I enjoy watching his vids, even though he might take different stuff or not min/max his lists, just watching the situations that other people get into and how they deal with it, is interesting and there's always something to learn from that.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the game with Lawrence, as he is such an awesome guy and such an awesome player, the channel and product he's created is fantastic.


Edited by Reskin, 29 November 2020 - 01:40 PM.

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#4
The Woodsman

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Sorry for the delay Reskin, finals prepping means less free time for watching Battle Reports, but I'm just finishing up the report now. 

 

There a few main things I've taken away from this, I'll go over them quickly.

 

1. The feasibility of going for multiple Smites. Considering GK start at Warp Charge 4 (with the +1) on Smite, this means on average you should pull off 4 a turn, even with the increased casting value. On your 5th cast, you're looking at a Warp Charge of 8, so with the proper combo of stratagems and relics, you could definitely pull of 5-6 reliably. Those mortal wounds add up and can really help mitigate any lack in anti-armor guns. Something to chew on, and keep in mind during list-building.

 

2. The Dreadnought. I'm not a huge fun of running 3 of one thing, 2/unit is usually my sweet spot, ensuring some redundancy without feeling like I'm spamming. That being said, I do like the combat weapon on the Ven Dreads, hitting on 2s with a possible re-roll is pretty sweet on those -3, D3 weapons. I feel there is almost always going to be a situation where you'd miss it if you'd taken the missiles. Once, against Dark Angels, I managed to Gate my Ven Dread into 9" of Sammael in his Speeder, take some wounds off with my twin las... fail the charge. I then survived the shooting and combat attacks coming from the Chapter Master on the following turn, only to strike back in his turn and take him down. Which got me some Assassination points as well as getting me a second unit in his deployment zone and get points for Behind Enemy Lines. I don't think I would have attempted the same thing with a shooty Dread, and the move won me the game. Duality is a great thing to have, especially in an army that has such expensive units. As for the multi-meltas, I get that they can do more damage than the twin las, but I do prefer the better range and strength... plus, to actually get the boosted damage you'd need to be in 12", so thats one, if not two turns during which you're less efficient than with the las... though granted the MM is cheaper. 

 

3. His Deep Strikes: Did you notice how he used his reserves to apply pressure on the edges, despite being kind of shut out of the center of the board? This is where I think success lies. Trying to drop a melee bomb with FttF, especially when you're doing so with almost half your army, is always going to be uncertain and tricky to pull off. Using those same units to encircle and force your opponent to spread out his efforts will dilute his firepower and take pressure off your main battle line, helping you stay in the attrition game and gain better board control, which is what 9th Ed. seems to be about. He could have forgone FttF altogether and taken Lore Master for an extra power, though none of the other Traits really shine, and FttF isn' bad per say, just a little swingy to be relied on entirely. 

 

Other than that, he did make some errors in placement and movement in the first turn, but considering he doesn't play that often and with a few different armies to boot, its to be expected. And Beard played well, in my opinion, even without the Spider's coaching - though some little tips did help keep the game interesting until the end. Going first definitely helped as well. As for Tide of Fury... I still think you're almost always better off with the mortals, or keeping Convergence on your psiweapon support units. Switching back to Shadows could be a good way of getting a little extra survivability in the closing turns if you need to hold on to some Primary points. 

 

All in all an enjoyable Tactica report, I always look forward to Grey Knights on TT.


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#5
Reskin

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Very well said, you have some interesting thoughts. We both look at that with some different take aways.

I don’t often change from escalation after 1st turn shadows Myself. But it’s just interesting to watch someone of Spider’s pedigree handle your army.

The one thing I will slightly disagree with is the dreadnought loadout. It’s -3ap flat 3 damage, but even then, the simple fact I can’t anti tank weaponry anywhere else is actually fine to take the missile launcher and have a unit that’s dedicated shooting. Even better when there’s 2, for redundancy sake. I feel we can certainly justify it, our terminators can handle any melee duty with Hammerhand. We have that many attacks, the swingy D3 damage will average itself out eventually;)

Yes I shudder and cringe at the swingyness of two D6 weapons, feels super bad when you hit on 2’s and somehow only land 1 shot... and once you’ve gone to all that effort and manage to roll a 1 on the damage roll for a 40pt weapon really pours salt into the wound

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#6
Weltbild

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1. The feasibility of going for multiple Smites. Considering GK start at Warp Charge 4 (with the +1) on Smite, this means on average you should pull off 4 a turn, even with the increased casting value. On your 5th cast, you're looking at a Warp Charge of 8, so with the proper combo of stratagems and relics, you could definitely pull of 5-6 reliably. Those mortal wounds add up and can really help mitigate any lack in anti-armor guns. Something to chew on, and keep in mind during list-building.

Is this actually how the probabilities work? If I‘m not mistaken, you‘d need a couple more attempts to look at 5-6 successes a turn due to variance (i.e. you‘re not guaranteed 6 out of 6 just because the required warp charge is below the average die roll, especially considering the increasing charge). But do you really dedicate all your casts to Smite? Can you get everything in range? And if so, How much does neglecting your other powers set you back?

Sorry, I‘m not smart enough to do the calculations. Just got the feeling that there‘s something missing in your consideration.

Edited by Weltbild, 06 December 2020 - 11:19 AM.


#7
Reskin

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1. The feasibility of going for multiple Smites. Considering GK start at Warp Charge 4 (with the +1) on Smite, this means on average you should pull off 4 a turn, even with the increased casting value. On your 5th cast, you're looking at a Warp Charge of 8, so with the proper combo of stratagems and relics, you could definitely pull of 5-6 reliably. Those mortal wounds add up and can really help mitigate any lack in anti-armor guns. Something to chew on, and keep in mind during list-building.

Is this actually how the probabilities work? If I‘m not mistaken, you‘d need a couple more attempts to look at 5-6 successes a turn due to variance (i.e. you‘re not guaranteed 6 out of 6 just because the required warp charge is below the average die roll, especially considering the increasing charge). But do you really dedicate all your casts to Smite? Can you get everything in range? And if so, How much does neglecting your other powers set you back?

Sorry, I‘m not smart enough to do the calculations. Just got the feeling that there‘s something missing in your consideration.

 

Not every "unique spell" is applicable all the time every turn, sometimes the 2wound smites are more efficient. And don't forget the strat for 1CP for 1 extra cast, and empyric surge for a +1 bubble, making everyone +2 to their rolls and a librarian +3 with the sanctic shard. Although, I am now rating the artisan nullifier matrix, I've been trying it out for a few games now, I love it! But sanctic shard is still the best relic we have, every cast you get to reroll, not just once per phase or per turn or per game. It's every cast. But the matrix is coming in a close second for me.

The first smite you would need to roll a 3 on two dice. That's with Empyric surge. mind you not everyone is going to be receiving this bubble, but still it helps alot.

Tyranids have an 18" aura of -1 to cast, effectively negating our passive army bonus. I'm sure other armies like Eldari or Harlies have something like this also.


Edited by Reskin, 06 December 2020 - 01:37 PM.

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#8
The Woodsman

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1. The feasibility of going for multiple Smites. Considering GK start at Warp Charge 4 (with the +1) on Smite, this means on average you should pull off 4 a turn, even with the increased casting value. On your 5th cast, you're looking at a Warp Charge of 8, so with the proper combo of stratagems and relics, you could definitely pull of 5-6 reliably. Those mortal wounds add up and can really help mitigate any lack in anti-armor guns. Something to chew on, and keep in mind during list-building.

Is this actually how the probabilities work? If I‘m not mistaken, you‘d need a couple more attempts to look at 5-6 successes a turn due to variance (i.e. you‘re not guaranteed 6 out of 6 just because the required warp charge is below the average die roll, especially considering the increasing charge). But do you really dedicate all your casts to Smite? Can you get everything in range? And if so, How much does neglecting your other powers set you back?

Sorry, I‘m not smart enough to do the calculations. Just got the feeling that there‘s something missing in your consideration.
In actual fact you're correct, pure statistics would say that you would fail some attempts even if on average you should achieve it. My point was mainly that we can look at 4 Smites with the odds in our favor, and that's without any relics or stratagems involved. Should you forgo a strategically better power to get those Smites? I don't think so. But it's good to see all your options, and I think it's good to build a list with all your options in mind. For example, I always give my three Strike Squads Gate, despite having it elsewhere, so that on the turn they come down, they are free to fire off some Smites which should, on average, go off. If I do need some more mortal wound output, or have other valid targets across the board, I know I could fairly reliably get another 2-3 off, using the right combos. I just feel that since 9th dropped the general consensus is that our Smite ability is gone, I was just trying to point out that it remains a source of damage that we should always try and "max out", that despite the increased Smite casting values, it still is one of our strengths and should be used as such. I think (and this is considering you aren't being obliterated) there should always be room for 3 Smites/turn - this is where the Brother Captain is useful, in allowing your backfield units to cast them while your main assault gets its buffs and movement tricks on.

Edited by The Woodsman, 07 December 2020 - 12:59 PM.

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#9
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In actual fact you're correct, pure statistics would say that you would fail some attempts even if on average you should achieve it. My point was mainly that we can look at 4 Smites with the odds in our favor, and that's without any relics or stratagems involved.

Ok, fair point. I mistakenly took it as advocacy for a smite-centric army build and threw in my two cents, so one wouldn‘t rely on 6/6 smites going off.

Should you forgo a strategically better power to get those Smites? I don't think so. But it's good to see all your options, and I think it's good to build a list with all your options in mind. For example, I always give my three Strike Squads Gate, despite having it elsewhere, so that on the turn they come down, they are free to fire off some Smites which should, on average, go off. If I do need some more mortal wound output, or have other valid targets across the board, I know I could fairly reliably get another 2-3 off, using the right combos. I just feel that since 9th dropped the general consensus is that our Smite ability is gone, I was just trying to point out that it remains a source of damage that we should always try and "max out", that despite the increased Smite casting values, it still is one of our strengths and should be used as such. I think (and this is considering you aren't being obliterated) there should always be room for 3 Smites/turn - this is where the Brother Captain is useful, in allowing your backfield units to cast them while your main assault gets its buffs and movement tricks on.

Absolutely agree. Our selection of special weapons feels somewhat lackluster to me - both quantity- and qualitywise. So if you manage to score enough mortal wounds consistently without having your troops annihilated, things might work out over a couple of rounds and compensate for the lack of high AP- (ranged) weapons. Perhaps a few squads of Terminators might be suited for the task? Then again, 20 Terminators don‘t come cheap. :-/

Edited by Weltbild, 07 December 2020 - 02:52 PM.


#10
The Woodsman

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Terminators can do it, though you'll often want to take Hammerhand/Sanctuary if you're not also running Paladins. Without going for Strike Squad spam, a few units can help get your Smite count up. I think it's also key to have a character or two with access to multiple powers/casts (Voldus, Librarian) so that you can duplicate powers elsewhere. Using the Lore Master trait on Voldus or a Librarian, you can easily have Warp Shaping, Empyrean Domination and Armored Resilience (in my opinion the 3 mandatory powers from Dominus), and if you've gone for Voldus throw in Ethereal Manipulation or Edict as well. This frees up your other characters for some Sanctic powers as well. This frees up your units to double up on stuff like Astral Aim and Gate of Infinity, which you'll only ever use once per turn, and not necessarily ever turn at that - that way you always have a few units free to cast a Smite. Granted, this all depends on the list you're fielding, but as Reskin pointed out, you can only cast a unique power once, thus you should in theory always have some "spare" casts. 

 

I myself tend to play pretty elite (even for Grey Knights) lists, running multiple GMDK and often a Land Raider or two. I'm usually a little strung out for powers, but the 3 Strike Squads are always a staple, not only do they fill out my much-needed Battalion, but they also provide those tasty mortal wounds and can be delivered anywhere on the board. At 100pts, I think the Strikes are a budget bundle with 20 S4 shots, 10 S5, -2, D3 damage attacks on the first round and the potential to throw out 2 mortals per turn. Yes, they do die easily when targeted, but dropping them into cover, or forcing your opponent to target something else by applying the right amount of pressure elsewhere, helps them survive. Not a thread about Strikes I know, we'll cover them as Unit of the Week eventually (and I shall be their eternal champion!), but in regards to making the most of Smite, I think they are relevant. 


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#11
Brother Lunkhead

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=][=

 

This conversation is fast becoming a general tactics/strategy conversation. Let's focus on the batrep please, or.........dry.png

 

=][=


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#12
Reskin

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Did any of you catch the Gk's vs Harliquins bat rep that was last month?

 

Lawrence vs Chef. It's an interesting game because Goonhammer ranked Harly's as A+ for competitiveness.

 

And Spider beat them pretty convincingly. I'm not sure if it was free view or on demand.


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#13
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I did it was a good game. I think is a great way of showing how you can have a list that wins tournaments but will still lose to a better player. I think it also showed how versatile GK's are unless I am remembering in correctly I think every tide was used.

#14
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Veerrry interesting, but I think the subject we are on is the Grey Knights vs Black Legionwhistling.gif


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#15
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Veerrry interesting, but I think the subject we are on is the Grey Knights vs Black Legionwhistling.gif

But it's the same Production company and another  bat rep, isn't this on topic?

 

 

 

Anyway, to tie it all together, the list was vastly different iirc. the loadout for the dreads was different to what he used vs the Black Legion.

He also took Voldus against the Harly's. It was dropped vs the Black Legion.

 

For sake of forum rules though, lets keep comments directed at the game against the black legion though. I'd rather not have my threads locked.

Did anyone else manage to catch it?


Edited by Reskin, 08 December 2020 - 05:03 PM.

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#16
Brother Lunkhead

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=][= As your thread title advertises, and your initial post implies, the subject at hand is the Tabletop Tactics video batrep for a Grey Knights vs Black Legion game. If your intent was to present a broader subject thread, you might consider reediting your first post and request a title change to bring the thread subject in line with your original desire. So, to answer your question:

 

But it's the same Production company and another  bat rep, isn't this on topic?

 

 

No, it isn't.

 

From what I understand from other subscribers to the Tabletop Tactics, subscriber only videos are generally not released for free view on YouTube. This fact may practically limit participation in this and similar discussions unless you provide a more detailed narrative. Understand that there's no rules violation in using these and similar batreps as the subject of this and any other threads, but they could potentially pose a barrier to broader participation.

 

If you have any questions or concerns, you're welcome to drop me a PM and we can discuss them at length. I am here to serveyes.gif =][=


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#17
Reskin

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=][= As your thread title advertises, and your initial post implies, the subject at hand is the Tabletop Tactics video batrep for a Grey Knights vs Black Legion game. If your intent was to present a broader subject thread, you might consider reediting your first post and request a title change to bring the thread subject in line with your original desire. So, to answer your question:


But it's the same Production company and another bat rep, isn't this on topic?

No, it isn't.

From what I understand from other subscribers to the Tabletop Tactics, subscriber only videos are generally not released for free view on YouTube. This fact may practically limit participation in this and similar discussions unless you provide a more detailed narrative. Understand that there's no rules violation in using these and similar batreps as the subject of this and any other threads, but they could potentially pose a barrier to broader participation.

If you have any questions or concerns, you're welcome to drop me a PM and we can discuss them at length. I am here to serveyes.gif =][=

I understand now, cheers for the help. Didn’t realise you could change thread titles.

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#18
Brother Lunkhead

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I understand now, cheers for the help. Didn’t realise you could change thread titles.

 

Yupyes.gif I can do that for you, if you want.


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#19
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Just a question, does Lawrence use the enemy -1 to hit for his GK units out in the open during Tide of Shadows?

 

Does he agree that's how Tide of Shadows is intended to work in 9Ed?


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#20
Reskin

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Just a question, does Lawrence use the enemy -1 to hit for his GK units out in the open during Tide of Shadows?

 

Does he agree that's how Tide of Shadows is intended to work in 9Ed?

Not sure, I'd have to check the games, but they general play rules as written


Edited by Reskin, 12 December 2020 - 10:43 AM.

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#21
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Just a question, does Lawrence use the enemy -1 to hit for his GK units out in the open during Tide of Shadows?

 

Does he agree that's how Tide of Shadows is intended to work in 9Ed?

 

If by -1 you mean Tide of Shadows, you only get that if you are on a terrain feature, no? Unless you mean the -1 to wound?



#22
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@waking dreamer As far as I know Lawrence doesn't play that way

@skywrath he is reffering to the tournament where the TO's ruled that because they were in cover in tide of shadows they counted as on terrain so they got the -1 to hit as well. Personally I feel this was a mistaken ruling by the TO's
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#23
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@waking dreamer As far as I know Lawrence doesn't play that way

@skywrath he is reffering to the tournament where the TO's ruled that because they were in cover in tide of shadows they counted as on terrain so they got the -1 to hit as well. Personally I feel this was a mistaken ruling by the TO's

That but that's exactly what the rule says? If you are within terrain its also -1 to hit, why would it not be? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

The breakdown is, they get +1 cover saves in the Tide regardless of being in terrain or standing in the middle of the board stark naked...

 

additionally... when in terrain, its -1 as well.


Edited by Reskin, 12 December 2020 - 02:13 PM.

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#24
The Woodsman

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I'm unsure as to the exact wording, and how it interacts with 9th edition terrain rules, but I'm sure the intent is that units in Shadows out of terrain gain Light Cover, while units under Shadows in a terrain piece gain Dense Cover. I don't know that the intent was to give GK units under Shadows and out in the open a +1 to their save and a -1 to Hit... seems a bit much, and unsure why a TO would rule it this way.


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#25
Reskin

Reskin

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  • Location:Aboard a Battle Barge

the rules as written are pretty self explanatory. You just need to read the BRB for terrain and cover rules as well. But the Tide of shadows is pretty straight forward. But regardless Lawrence and the gang are pretty cluey as to rules and to be honest would if there was that much doubt they would play what's gentlemanly and fair. They don't even bother to reroll cocked dice most of the time. When they really should, even in their tacticas


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Grey Knights, Black Legion, Tactica

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