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Tabletop Tactics - GK vs Black Legion

Grey Knights Black Legion Tactica

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#26
The Woodsman

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They'd definitely all get full points for sportsman ship in tournament play! One day I might fork out the cash to hit up the LVO, just to get a shot a playing against one of the guys. (To be fair I'd consider going for the event itself). I don't know if this thread was becoming a general TT batrep discussion thread... I don't know if you've watched the latest Tempestus vs. Custodes Tactica? Just the coaching element (also present in the GK vs BL video) is huge to me, helping each other out to have more even games, and to get better at the game in general. It all transpires in the impact they have on the community too.


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#27
Gnomeo

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@waking dreamer As far as I know Lawrence doesn't play that way

@skywrath he is reffering to the tournament where the TO's ruled that because they were in cover in tide of shadows they counted as on terrain so they got the -1 to hit as well. Personally I feel this was a mistaken ruling by the TO's

That but that's exactly what the rule says? If you are within terrain its also -1 to hit, why would it not be? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

The breakdown is, they get +1 cover saves in the Tide regardless of being in terrain or standing in the middle of the board stark naked...

additionally... when in terrain, its -1 as well.

So the Tournament organiser at the tournament (can't remember the name) ruled that if the unit is in the open not near any terrain and was in the tide of shadows. They would get both the benefits. The reason being because they count as having cover they must count as in cover. Therefore also getting the -1 to be hit. As a result of this occurring a lot of people see this as how it should be played.

And not the way it is clearly written in ritual of the dammed.

#28
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Yeah I’d have to get Lunkhead to change the thread title, if we were to talk about their current tactics video that didn’t include Gks and then it most likely wouldn’t belong in this sub forum.


But yes I did watch it ;)


Thanks Gnomeo, wasn’t aware of that.

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#29
Waking Dreamer

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Just another question about the Batrep, did Lawrence use Tide of Shadows with either a GMNDK or GK Dreadnought?

 

As per 9Ed rules only Infantry, Beasts and Swarms can gain benefits of Light Cover, so even though our DreadKnights/dreadnoughts are Psyker themselves, and technically affected by Tide of Shadows, they won't even get the +1 armour Save when activated?

 

It's a shame this is the only GK batrep Lawrence has done since 9Ed...


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#30
Reskin

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Just another question about the Batrep, did Lawrence use Tide of Shadows with either a GMNDK or GK Dreadnought?

 

As per 9Ed rules only Infantry, Beasts and Swarms can gain benefits of Light Cover, so even though our DreadKnights/dreadnoughts are Psyker themselves, and technically affected by Tide of Shadows, they won't even get the +1 armour Save when activated?

 

It's a shame this is the only GK batrep Lawrence has done since 9Ed...

Nah he's also vsed harlequins with the GK's.

 

Actually, here's one for you;

 

Rare Rules: Page 360. Benefits of cover when not in terrain. I believe shadows just got stronger, with my interpretation of this.

 

Edit: Where in the rules does it say that Infantry beasts and swarms are the only ones who gain light cover? That's not true from what I can see.


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 07:58 AM.

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#31
Waking Dreamer

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Nah he's also vsed harlequins with the GK's.

 

 

That is true. I did watch that one and even though he had 3 GK dreadnoughts Lawrence went straight into Tide of Convergence and then Tide of Escalation, so no Shadows for the example.

 

 

Edit: Where in the rules does it say that Infantry beasts and swarms are the only ones who gain light cover? That's not true from what I can see.

 

I don't have the pages in front of me now, but if the thought process I've been reading for this conclusion is correct, it follows from:

 

1. Rules for 9Ed Area Terrain:

 

Spoiler

 

2. Light Cover is a "benefit of cover" that can be granted for being within Area of Terrain:

 

Spoiler

 

3. Tide of Shadows technically grants the Light Cover bonus now...as if the GK Psyker was within a Terrain feature:

 

Spoiler

 

However, from the very beginning in 9Ed, it's never explicitly stated for VEHICLES to receive these particular "benefits of cover" bonuses i.e. Light Cover and Heavy Cover, while they are within the terrain feature. Therefore, it is irrelevant that Tide of Shadows will make a GK Psyker Vehicle be treated as within a terrain feature while out in the open - because they were never applicable for Light/Heavy cover within the terrain anyway.

 

Although, if say a GK dreadnought was physically "wholly within" a terrain feature eg. completely inside a ruins terrain, they would now still get -1 to hit vs enemy shooting due to Shadows.

 

So, that's why I'd like to see Lawrence's stance on this as he tends to play in the spirit of the rule rather than the RAWs, if it has not already been confirmed by say GW or a TO where he plans to compete it soon. 


Edited by Waking Dreamer, 19 December 2020 - 11:02 AM.

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#32
Skywrath

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That being said, let's assume one of the marines used a strategem that ignores cover and we don't benefit from it. Let's make the other assumption that we are already standing on a proper piece of cover, therefore giving us both instances of cover (tide+actual physical cover). Does that strategem remove both instances of cover (seeing how our tactic is "psychic" rather than physical, as the wording reflects the latter, specifically)?


Edited by Skywrath, 19 December 2020 - 10:04 AM.


#33
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Light cover is also granted from other types of terrain, not just area terrain. you are getting hung up on area terrain Dreamer, area terrain is a rule for infantry, swarms and beasts to interact with. Craters,  armoured containers, barricades and fuel pipes, and other pieces of terrain give light cover. Units can benefit from those types of terrain if the firing model cant draw a CLEAR line of side to ALL parts of a model's base without going through terrain. 

 

 

Let me summarise by saying, vehicles and in fact any unit that isn't Infantry, beasts or swarms don't get benefits of cover in area terrain or obstacles, however

If a vehicle is in area terrain that offers a -1 to hit, like woods. The firing unit is -1 to hit, not because the vehicle is in dense terrain, but because the firing models is shooting into/through dense terrain. (except aircraft who don't benefit from anything, in fact the reverse is applied to them)


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 12:16 PM.

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#34
Reskin

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That being said, let's assume one of the marines used a strategem that ignores cover and we don't benefit from it. Let's make the other assumption that we are already standing on a proper piece of cover, therefore giving us both instances of cover (tide+actual physical cover). Does that strategem remove both instances of cover (seeing how our tactic is "psychic" rather than physical, as the wording reflects the latter, specifically)?

The next rule, pg. 360 describes how to interact with units that have abilities that ignore cover. There's 3 types of rules.

 

1. Ignore the benefits to cover save

2. Ignore the benefits dense cover (-1 to hit)

3. Ignore the benefits of cover. (which means both rule 1 and 2.)

 

Units or stratagems or any rule will have 1 of these 3 rule wordings. From there its pretty simple to work out.

 

2 examples are Tau have  a strat that ignore all cover bonuses. Admech have a rule that ignore bonuses to saves.

 

I play against both.

 

Our astral aims is an example of rule 1. Units don't gain the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover. However  even if we cant see the units, we suffer from -1 to hit if shooting into or through dense cover such as woods.


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 11:57 AM.

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#35
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Light cover is also granted from other types of terrain, not just area terrain. you are getting hung up on area terrain Dreamer, area terrain is a rule for infantry, swarms and beasts to interact with. Craters,  armoured containers, barricades and fuel pipes, and other pieces of terrain give light cover. Units can benefit from those types of terrain if the firing model cant draw a CLEAR line of side to ALL parts of a model's base without going through terrain. 

 

Well in 9E there is only 4 main categories of terrain:

1. Hills

2. Obstacles

3. Area Terrain

4. Buildings

 

1 and 4 don't really count as proper terrain features in the way that they can give benefits of cover. So it's actually only about Obstacles and Area terrain (the latter I mention in post #31).

 

Now, for a summary in Obstacles:

Spoiler

 

Let me summarise by saying, vehicles and in fact any unit that isn't Infantry, beasts or swarms don't get benefits of cover in area terrain or obstacles,

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at in post #29. I said, "As per 9Ed rules only Infantry, Beasts and Swarms can gain benefits of Light Cover..."

 

Since, Light Cover can only come from being within Obstacles and Area Terrain, does that mean you agree specifically, that Light Cover bonuses have no effect on Vehicles at all? 

 

And to my original issue, can a GK psyker dreadnought / dreadknight in anyway receive the +1 Armour Save with the Tide of Shadows activated? 

 

RAWs they...cannot? Right?

 

 however, If a vehicle is in area terrain that offers a -1 to hit, like woods. The firing unit is -1 to hit, not because the vehicle is in dense terrain, but because the firing models is shooting into/through dense terrain. (except aircraft who don't benefit from anything, in fact the reverse is applied to them)

 

That is the Dense Cover benefit which I wasn't really confused with. Yes, Vehicles can be effected by it, and I already mentioned I can see GK dreadnoughts receiving the -1 to hit vs enemy shooting with Tide of Shadows - if they are wholly within a terrain feature. And sure they get that -1 to hit if they are behind (and not touching) a terrain feature that has the Dense Cover trait even without Tide of Shadows.

 

But, what I'd really like to know if it's okay for our Dreadknights / dreadnoughts to get that +1 Armour Save out in the open with Tide of Shadows....especially if they saw Lawrence do that in the 9Ed batrep...?


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#36
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Light cover is also granted from other types of terrain, not just area terrain. you are getting hung up on area terrain Dreamer, area terrain is a rule for infantry, swarms and beasts to interact with. Craters,  armoured containers, barricades and fuel pipes, and other pieces of terrain give light cover. Units can benefit from those types of terrain if the firing model cant draw a CLEAR line of side to ALL parts of a model's base without going through terrain. 

 

Well in 9E there is only 4 main categories of terrain:

1. Hills

2. Obstacles

3. Area Terrain

4. Buildings

 

1 and 4 don't really count as proper terrain features in the way that they can give benefits of cover. So it's actually only about Obstacles and Area terrain (the latter I mention in post #31).

 

Now, for a summary in Obstacles:

Spoiler

 

Let me summarise by saying, vehicles and in fact any unit that isn't Infantry, beasts or swarms don't get benefits of cover in area terrain or obstacles,

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at in post #29. I said, "As per 9Ed rules only Infantry, Beasts and Swarms can gain benefits of Light Cover..."

 

Since, Light Cover can only come from being within Obstacles and Area Terrain, does that mean you agree specifically, that Light Cover bonuses have no effect on Vehicles at all? 

 

And to my original issue, can a GK psyker dreadnought / dreadknight in anyway receive the +1 Armour Save with the Tide of Shadows activated? 

 

RAWs they...cannot? Right?

 

 however, If a vehicle is in area terrain that offers a -1 to hit, like woods. The firing unit is -1 to hit, not because the vehicle is in dense terrain, but because the firing models is shooting into/through dense terrain. (except aircraft who don't benefit from anything, in fact the reverse is applied to them)

 

That is the Dense Cover benefit which I wasn't really confused with. Yes, Vehicles can be effected by it, and I already mentioned I can see GK dreadnoughts receiving the -1 to hit vs enemy shooting with Tide of Shadows - if they are wholly within a terrain feature. And sure they get that -1 to hit if they are behind (and not touching) a terrain feature that has the Dense Cover trait even without Tide of Shadows.

 

But, what I'd really like to know if it's okay for our Dreadknights / dreadnoughts to get that +1 Armour Save out in the open with Tide of Shadows....especially if they saw Lawrence do that in the 9Ed batrep...?

 

Yes, I'm explicitly agreeing that vehicles and other unit types which aren't the 3 mentioned, I'm looking at you, you filthy Tau suits do not gain the benefits of light cover in area or obstacle terrain.

 

And while the Tide of Shadows is an 8.5 edition rule, I would with 90% certainty say that GK vehicles do not gain the benefit of the cover save for being out it the open.

 

Let me break it down, the only rule that gives a bonus to your cover save is Light Cover and seeing as vehicles don't get this, I would with almost surety say no.

 

However, they would get the benefit of -1 to hit for vehicles being inside area terrain or obstacles that don't already naturally apply a -1 to hit, and even if they did, we would still get the -1 from shadows. Bringing the total to a -2 to hit me, which would naturally only be -1, but the -2 is important to cancel out any opponents bonuses to hit.

 

Regardless, I don't pay that much attention to all the saves Lawrence is getting from various bits and pieces. He's only ever in Shadows for 1 turn if he has to go second and he's worried, he spends most of the time in Escalation and the convergence when he sees fit.


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 01:36 PM.

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#37
Gnomeo

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Vehicles get the benefit of light cover in the open if they are a psyker in tide of shadows. This is because it is an ability providing it not them being in area terrain.

Though to pipe up a little of topic I find I rarely use tide of shadows. I don't actually think it is that good. I have used tide of fury more than shadows.

#38
Reskin

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Vehicles get the benefit of light cover in the open if they are a psyker in tide of shadows. This is because it is an ability providing it not them being in area terrain.

Though to pipe up a little of topic I find I rarely use tide of shadows. I don't actually think it is that good. I have used tide of fury more than shadows.

 

No, I disagree, the tide of shadows says:

 

Taken directly from the Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned book pg. 66

 

While this Tide is dominant, a unit with this ability receives the benefit of cover, to it's saving throw while it is not entirely on or within a terrain feature.

When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this ability while it is entirely on or within a terrain feature, subtract 1 from the hit roll.

 

The only rule that give a benefit to saving throws is the rule light cover. Otherwise how do you know how much to add? +1 or +5 to its saving throws?

 

Light Cover: Taken directly from the BRB pg. 263

 

When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerability saves are not affected). 

It's a little complicated to follow but I'll try to explain the rules of cover first.

 

Cover is on a model by model basis. So take tide of shadows out of the equation for a second.

 

You have 5 marines, 4 of them are inside a ruin that gives light cover, 1 is not inside the ruin for all intents and purposes. When that unit is shot at, that model that is not inside the ruin doesn't get +1 to his cover save.

 

So when taking saves, you as the owner of the unit being shot at, can allocate saves onto any model you wish, as long as they aren't wounded already. (it's not like 6th edition where the closest model had to die, and you had to position your special weapons properly at the back)

 

Now the 1 model outside the terrain is lets say, a las cannon something you don't want to die. Well that's ok you don't have to take saves on him till the other 4 marines die. so 4 marines taking saves on a 2+ till they die, and the lone gunman outside the ruin would then be taking saves on a 3+.

 

 

Now take the above example and add tide of shadows. Tide of shadows now confers the benefit of saving throws for a unit being in cover, to that 1 lone gunman with a lascannon outside the ruin. As without the rule, he doesn't gain cover as its on a model by model basis.

 

With Tide of shadows, models that aren't in terrain still gain the benefit that the unit is receiving.

 

 

Now, vehicles. Seeing as they can't gain any benefits from any of the terrain features already that offer light cover, either area terrain such as ruins or obstacles such as shipping containers, pipes and anything else that offers this.

 

So whether or not the vehicle in inside, on top of, partially inside, underneath, touching, hugging, any area terrain, or obstacle. It doesn't gain light cover to begin with.

Now with the tide of shadows, the vehicle still isn't gaining the benefits to its saving throw. As anything that offers light cover is either area terrain or an obstacle. And only Infantry, beasts and swarms can gain the benefits of cover while interacting with those.

 

However, it would gain the -1 to hit if its wholly within a terrain. As previously mentioned in above posts. In fact I'll go as far as mention if you walked a dreadnought into a ruin somehow with a large open arch like the new pieces of terrain offer, he would gain the -1 to hit. 


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 05:39 PM.

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#39
Gnomeo

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Vehicles get the benefit of light cover in the open if they are a psyker in tide of shadows. This is because it is an ability providing it not them being in area terrain.

Though to pipe up a little of topic I find I rarely use tide of shadows. I don't actually think it is that good. I have used tide of fury more than shadows.


No, I disagree, the tide of shadows says:

Taken directly from the Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned book pg. 66

While this Tide is dominant, a unit with this ability receives the benefit of cover, to it's saving throw while it is not entirely on or within a terrain feature.
When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this ability while it is entirely on or within a terrain feature, subtract 1 from the hit roll.


The only rule that give a benefit to saving throws is the rule light cover. Otherwise how do you know how much to add? +1 or +5 to its saving throws?

Light Cover: Taken directly from the BRB pg. 263

When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature, add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack (invulnerability saves are not affected).

It's a little complicated to follow but I'll try to explain the rules of cover first.

Cover is on a model by model basis. So take tide of shadows out of the equation for a second.

You have 5 marines, 4 of them are inside a ruin that gives light cover, 1 is not inside the ruin for all intents and purposes. When that unit is shot at, that model that is not inside the ruin doesn't get +1 to his cover save.


So when taking saves, you as the owner of the unit being shot at, can allocate saves onto any model you wish, as long as they aren't wounded already. (it's not like 6th edition where the closest model had to die, and you had to position your special weapons properly at the back)


Now the 1 model outside the terrain is lets say, a las cannon something you don't want to die. Well that's ok you don't have to take saves on him till the other 4 marines die. so 4 marines taking saves on a 2+ till they die, and the lone gunman outside the ruin would then be taking saves on a 3+.


Now take the above example and add tide of shadows. Tide of shadows now confers the benefit of saving throws for a unit being in cover, to that 1 lone gunman with a lascannon outside the ruin. As without the rule, he doesn't gain cover as its on a model by model basis.

With Tide of shadows, models that aren't in terrain still gain the benefit that the unit is receiving.


Now, vehicles. Seeing as they can't gain any benefits from any of the terrain features already that offer light cover, either area terrain such as ruins or obstacles such as shipping containers, pipes and anything else that offers this.

So whether or not the vehicle in inside, on top of, partially inside, underneath, touching, hugging, any area terrain, or obstacle. It doesn't gain light cover to begin with.
Now with the tide of shadows, the vehicle still isn't gaining the benefits to its saving throw. As anything that offers light cover is either area terrain or an obstacle. And only Infantry, beasts and swarms can gain the benefits of cover while interacting with those.

However, it would gain the -1 to hit if its wholly within a terrain. As previously mentioned in above posts. In fact I'll go as far as mention if you walked a dreadnought into a ruin somehow with a large open arch like the new pieces of terrain offer, he would gain the -1 to hit.

I appreciate your argument.

However they are not gaining light cover from terrain. Light cover its self is a rule. Not a bit of terrain and in the rulebook they give examples of what these could be not what they are. Eg you could agree you are fighting at night everything thing counts as in cover.

So yes vehicles can not gain the "light cover" rule from terrain however they are not limited in getting it from other places eg special rules.

As reference have a look at raven guard.
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#40
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I know these special rules, Admech also have one in the form of a canticle I believe.

It’s hard to argue with rules as written vs as intended, and you make a good case, however tide of shadows doesn’t say It gains the benefit of light cover, it says it gains the benefit of cover... now you could interpret that as heavy, meaning it gains a saving throw bonus against melee attacks.

So by your logic everyone including vehicles gain a bonus to their saving throws even when not in terrain to both shooting and melee attacks, and tide also doesn’t say what bonus, so tell me how much is that bonus?

 

You would have to read the wording for the Raven Guards special rule, I don't play marines so I don't have the codex. But it's clear that GW don't want vehicles or anyone other then infantry, beasts and swarms to gain bonuses to cover saves.

 

However that is not to say that vehicles can't make use of the other rules that pieces of terrain offer, such as defence line, fighting within 2" on models near the defence line and such.

 

I can't remember if the heavy cover rule in 8th edition in terms of melee cover saves? Otherwise this opens up a whole can of complications.


Edited by Reskin, 19 December 2020 - 11:27 PM.

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#41
Corvus Fortis

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It’s hard to argue with rules as written vs as intended, and you make a good case, however tide of shadows doesn’t say It gains the benefit of light cover, it says it gains the benefit of cover... now you could interpret that as heavy, meaning it gains a saving throw bonus against melee attacks.

 

 

If the type of cover is not stated, it is always light cover. I think, it was in the rare rules. 


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#42
Gnomeo

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I know these special rules, Admech also have one in the form of a canticle I believe.

It’s hard to argue with rules as written vs as intended, and you make a good case, however tide of shadows doesn’t say It gains the benefit of light cover, it says it gains the benefit of cover... now you could interpret that as heavy, meaning it gains a saving throw bonus against melee attacks.

So by your logic everyone including vehicles gain a bonus to their saving throws even when not in terrain to both shooting and melee attacks, and tide also doesn’t say what bonus, so tell me how much is that bonus?

You would have to read the wording for the Raven Guards special rule, I don't play marines so I don't have the codex. But it's clear that GW don't want vehicles or anyone other then infantry, beasts and swarms to gain bonuses to cover saves.

However that is not to say that vehicles can't make use of the other rules that pieces of terrain offer, such as defence line, fighting within 2" on models near the defence line and such.

I can't remember if the heavy cover rule in 8th edition in terms of melee cover saves? Otherwise this opens up a whole can of complications.


The rule book says if type of cover is not stated it gains light cover.

I am following rules as written not as intended. However some times you have to look very closely at wording and not summarize a rule. Almost like reading legal documents at times

Also for reference with raven guard (I also dont play regular marines either)

The 1st half says every unit gets light cover over 18" and the second have says if in cover only infantry get dense.

#43
Reskin

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What page is the rule which states undisclosed cover is light cover?

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#44
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It is in the rare rules section cant remember page number and a mate has my rule book atm. I think its under benefit of cover. To be honest it is still very debatable. There is also an old thread on this hear.

And as it says terrain feature not obstacle your vehicles get the benefit.

http://www.bolterand...ide-of-shadows/

However this highlights the issue of the -1.

Further to this issue tournament organisers have ruled both ways however I am only aware of a single instance when it was ruled in favour of the -1 to hit way. and there has been no clarity from GW. But it is widely regarded that the initial interaction of every one getting +1 light cover is the correct way to play.

As a result either way you look at it vehicles s get +1 cover and if you want to be super gamey -1 to hit aswell

Edited by Gnomeo, 21 December 2020 - 08:32 AM.






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