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Mortis


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#476
DukeLeto69

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@Bobss ah The Unremembered Empire - was eh unremembered by me!

It is the one book by Abnett I am not overly keen on and has slipped from memory (clearly) so my bad on the future history memories.

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#477
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I don't mind the Perpetuals, saw them as a throwback to the Sensei from the Draco stories and a way to show the Emperor's influence throughout history, something that was referenced from 2nd edition onwards.

As for Mortis itself, I could've done without the Knights arc to be honest, felt like something we've already seen many times before.
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#478
Just123456

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I don't mind the Perpetuals, saw them as a throwback to the Sensei from the Draco stories and a way to show the Emperor's influence throughout history, something that was referenced from 2nd edition onwards.
As for Mortis itself, I could've done without the Knights arc to be honest, felt like something we've already seen many times before.

The Sensei were also in two things from 1st Edition era. They had tabletop in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned.

And it was first 1st Edition that said that about the Emperor (mainly Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned), not 2nd Edition.

Edited by Just123456, 03 May 2021 - 10:40 PM.


#479
Just123456

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"The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.
The Perpetuals dont fit."
Other than the Emperor, certain elements of the Imperium (around the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy) would know a certain amount of very ancient Terran history. Makes a lot of sense for Malcador and his people to have researched this sort of thing.
By M41, that knowledge would probably have withered to a smattering of a smattering within elements of the Inquisition.
That's sort of beside the point though. The knowledge (and many millenia of personal experience) of those extremely ancient Perpetuals do not represent what "the Imperium" knows. Two separate things. 99.999999% of the Imperium doesn't even know about the existence of Perpetuals, much less the historical knowledge of certain Perpetuals who have lived through tens of millenia.
Are Perpetuals unnecessary? Yeah, I guess so. Do they not "fit" the setting? I think that's very subjective.
Their existence just means the Emperor had a small number of "peers" in the past (albeit lacking the Emperor's utterly freakish psychic might). Quite a few of these have probably been perma-killed over the millenia, and Oll is probably going to be perma-killed in the final SoT book. Perhaps the existence of Perpetuals among humanity has something to do with an Old Ones project...who knows.
But do they really "not fit" the setting. I think they can be worked in just fine. Whether they're a good creative choice...this goes back to subjectivity and personal taste.


The Imperium in the 41st millennium hardly knows anything whatsoever about Old Earth's history. One of the main points of the setting.

#480
Just123456

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Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?


There are none in Saturnine

In fact, Abnett points out that Malcador, in the presence of Jenetia Krole, is an even frailer old man than usual. Her enormous null aura is stripping his guise of being... a less frail old man, I guess? It's literally pointed out when they're all chatting together. It clashes with the second Emps Vs. Horus warp-sequence in The Solar War in which Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold. Don't get me wrong, a warp-sequence is a warp-sequence at the end of the day, and Malcador could've appeared to Emps as Britney Spears, but it supports the theory some people hold that Malcador's frailty is a glamour - similar to Emps being a relic from the DAOT, although apparently believing that will cause ADB to break into my house and murder my family (but I think I'll take the risk)

It's like Jaghatai Khan being a prick to several senior officers in the Bhab Bastion despite the Khan's usual shrewdness when dealing with humans, notably Illya Ravallion (best woman) and Su-Kassen (second-best woman - Lotara Who?)

Fortunately for Abnett, Saturnine is good enough to cover these moments up

Do you dig the Perpetuals as a concept?

Edited by Just123456, 04 May 2021 - 02:59 PM.


#481
nagashnee

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Just finished this, got the LE hoping for another titanicus or titandeath. Instead i got a book i can only described as confused with itself. What is it? Its not the story of the Legio mortis as it does not contain their defining moment of the Siege. Its not the story of the Legio Ignatum, as it leaves their character building halfdone amd their fate for someone else to sort out. Is it the story of a lone white scar? Of a pair of immortals having flashbacks? Or the retaking of terras beacon ( when did it even fall?)? Is it at least a view of the traitor camp because god knows they need some pages.

For me it feels like it tries to be all of the above and predictably fails to achieve any of the above, the big titan fight happens mostly off the page with no real resolution, and all the other plot points interupt it enough to be jaring but not enough to actually stand on their own. Nothing is really given enough time to drawn one in, most of the stories are totally indepedent of themselves .

My ultimate issue with Mortis is that it flounders about and never really gets anyware, it has no flow , it did not read as 1 book to me, but rather a titan novella with 4-5 other short stories stuck in it fighting to get free.

At least i will easily recoup my loss on the LE i guess.

Edited by nagashnee, 05 May 2021 - 03:22 AM.

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#482
caladancid

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I have mixed feelings about this one.  On the one hand I definitely agree that it dragged along through too many plotlines, on the other for whatever reason the sense of scale REALLY impacted me here more than any of the others so far.  The docking of the Mortis transports was so cool.

 

I think it was overall worth the purchase.

 

I do see we have hit another Dan Abnett fear cycle.  Might as well embrace it.....because if Penitent is any proof he isn't being 'reined' in nor should he be at all.   Also why do people venerate ADB like he has never had a twist?  He is really good, but has had his share of controversy.

 

As a last part- what are the general thoughts on the status of Legio Ignatum after the novel?  I am unclear on who/what is left.


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#483
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This book is getting killed on Goodreads - for those who're interested. It'll probably drop below The First Wall as the weakest-rated Siege entry thus far. I'm cracking open my copy tonight, because my hobby spending has been pretty light recently, so we'll see what happens...

 

 

 

Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?


There are none in Saturnine

In fact, Abnett points out that Malcador, in the presence of Jenetia Krole, is an even frailer old man than usual. Her enormous null aura is stripping his guise of being... a less frail old man, I guess? It's literally pointed out when they're all chatting together. It clashes with the second Emps Vs. Horus warp-sequence in The Solar War in which Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold. Don't get me wrong, a warp-sequence is a warp-sequence at the end of the day, and Malcador could've appeared to Emps as Britney Spears, but it supports the theory some people hold that Malcador's frailty is a glamour - similar to Emps being a relic from the DAOT, although apparently believing that will cause ADB to break into my house and murder my family (but I think I'll take the risk)

It's like Jaghatai Khan being a prick to several senior officers in the Bhab Bastion despite the Khan's usual shrewdness when dealing with humans, notably Illya Ravallion (best woman) and Su-Kassen (second-best woman - Lotara Who?)

Fortunately for Abnett, Saturnine is good enough to cover these moments up

Do you dig the Perpetuals as a concept?

 

 

Sure. Primarch-esque beings from a variety of backgrounds and origins who only enrich the setting are never a bad thing. Aren't Phoenix Lords kind of like Perpetuals? I don't really care about the metaphysics at play, but it's not like Matt Damon/John Cleese/Actaea were made from the same clay either. Remember that whacky knight dude from Fabius Bile: Primogenitor? He could be a Perpetual, and is a reference to some obscure piece of ancient lore, but Reynolds doesn't twist the story around him. He's just a weird-flavoured jelly baby you find in your packet while chomping down the rest. I could've done without the 'this happened before and events are a cycle/spiral' thing introduced in Mortis because it's just... boring. It seemingly robs characters of their agency, I guess. Causality is never a good concept to introduce to your story unless you do it right (and funnily enough it was done the best in one of the oldest examples - The Tragedy of Oedipus, or whatever it's called). Oll crashing the Vengebowl is beginning to feel more and more The Itchy & Scratchie & Poochie show the closer it gets. It doesn't help that Perpetuals violate ideas of focus, balance, importance, attention etc. in stories. I want to say it's related to the whole 'maxim of relevance' in conversational structure like we all studied in high school, but this is prose, not chatter so idk. I mean, that was already blown to smithereens by Kyme's Salamanders books, anyway, but still, publishers gonna publisher

 

tl;dr I feel like you can divide the BLibrary readership into people viewing this from an ''is this good for the story?'' in an artsy kind of way, and those who are like ''is this good for the lore/verse?'' in a more logic-IP-based way. In my opinion people who defend Perpetuals to the hilt tend to belong to the latter camp, whereas those who want rid of them are #mypeople and firmly sit in the former. It's no different from people who gobble up Gav Thorpe/Guy Haley works for all of the juicy infodumps they contain, whereas other people think they're about as riveting as a shopping list. As others have said, the Horus Heresy/Siege of Terra is such a salt-powered, inertia-driven blob at this point that it's going to please and upset everyone, every single book, in regards to everything


Edited by Bobss, 05 May 2021 - 12:58 PM.

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#484
RedFurioso

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Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold.

Well, Malcador is much younger creature than Emperor... He's like Robin to Batman.

 

 

 

As a last part- what are the general thoughts on the status of Legio Ignatum after the novel?  I am unclear on who/what is left.

Imperator Exemplis survived (or was rebuilt after the Siege) - it was active in M41. 


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#485
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I have mixed feelings about this one.  On the one hand I definitely agree that it dragged along through too many plotlines, on the other for whatever reason the sense of scale REALLY impacted me here more than any of the others so far.  The docking of the Mortis transports was so cool.

 

I think it was overall worth the purchase.

 

As a last part- what are the general thoughts on the status of Legio Ignatum after the novel?  I am unclear on who/what is left.

 

I like the point about scale. If I can make a comparison, Mortis is to me very much the flavour of Godzilla 2014. The plot could use some trimming, and the most interesting characters don't get the focus they should. But the presentation of it all, the absolute scale of the things involved, are captured better than in any of the works surrounding it.

 

I prefer Saturnine for being both more competent and pretty dense with spectacle (as I prefer Kong: Skull Island to Godzilla,) but I think there are substantial strengths that are exclusive to each.

 

Re: Ignatum

Spoiler

 

 

 

 tl;dr I feel like you can divide the BLibrary readership into people viewing this from an ''is this good for the story?'' in an artsy kind of way, and those who are like ''is this good for the lore/verse?'' in a more logic-IP-based way.

 

I'm gonna be that person and say that for perpetuals especially, I find myself split between those perspectives.

 

Are they good for the story directly? I'm pretty ambivalent, as long as they don't turn the entire climax inside-out. 

 

But there are times I think being good for the setting indirectly improves the story. The Heresy has changed substantially from old fluff even without the perpetuals. It's become far more drawn out, what was once "merely" a civil war for the Imperium is now a 7 year long conflict that spans an entire galaxy. That there are significantly more moving parts than was originally indicated is beneficial to the story, because having that scale but involving only Imperial military factions begins to stretch belief. 

 

Were the Cabal, Eldrad, and the perpetuals well implemented? YMMV, I certainly think it's been largely mishandled. But their mere existence doesn't rankle, as long as they don't overtake the plot too substantially I think it's a welcome enough addition, for the benefit of the important stuff and fleshing out the in-betweens.

 

It of course remains to be seen whether they're going to remain in a role appropriate to them.


Edited by Roomsky, 05 May 2021 - 01:25 PM.

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#486
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Just finished this, got the LE hoping for another titanicus or titandeath. Instead i got a book i can only described as confused with itself. What is it? Its not the story of the Legio mortis as it does not contain their defining moment of the Siege. Its not the story of the Legio Ignatum, as it leaves their character building halfdone amd their fate for someone else to sort out. Is it the story of a lone white scar? Of a pair of immortals having flashbacks? Or the retaking of terras beacon ( when did it even fall?)? Is it at least a view of the traitor camp because god knows they need some pages.
For me it feels like it tries to be all of the above and predictably fails to achieve any of the above, the big titan fight happens mostly off the page with no real resolution, and all the other plot points interupt it enough to be jaring but not enough to actually stand on their own. Nothing is really given enough time to drawn one in, most of the stories are totally indepedent of themselves .
My ultimate issue with Mortis is that it flounders about and never really gets anyware, it has no flow , it did not read as 1 book to me, but rather a titan novella with 4-5 other short stories stuck in it fighting to get free.
At least i will easily recoup my loss on the LE i guess.


I’m nearing the end of the book so I figured I’d come back to add to this thread - what you said hits the nail on the head. I’m struggling to finish reading Mortis because of this. I’m not engrossed enough in the story, though Oll has a bwah flashback, and I’m still looking for the plot.

I had hoped there would be a PoV from Mortis side but instead we get some cringey trope crap from Solaria and the loyalist knights.

This book could have honestly been a forgettable John French anthology collection. I remember burning through Know No Fear and Fulgrim to get to the next chapters but this I really have to push myself to keep reading.

There also doesn’t seem to be any consequence in this book. I never feel like the Traitors are close to victory or that there’s any real threat. The author robs any impetuous in the siege that was already robbed from Saturnine.
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#487
Just123456

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This book is getting killed on Goodreads - for those who're interested. It'll probably drop below The First Wall as the weakest-rated Siege entry thus far. I'm cracking open my copy tonight, because my hobby spending has been pretty light recently, so we'll see what happens...

Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?

There are none in Saturnine
In fact, Abnett points out that Malcador, in the presence of Jenetia Krole, is an even frailer old man than usual. Her enormous null aura is stripping his guise of being... a less frail old man, I guess? It's literally pointed out when they're all chatting together. It clashes with the second Emps Vs. Horus warp-sequence in The Solar War in which Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold. Don't get me wrong, a warp-sequence is a warp-sequence at the end of the day, and Malcador could've appeared to Emps as Britney Spears, but it supports the theory some people hold that Malcador's frailty is a glamour - similar to Emps being a relic from the DAOT, although apparently believing that will cause ADB to break into my house and murder my family (but I think I'll take the risk)
It's like Jaghatai Khan being a prick to several senior officers in the Bhab Bastion despite the Khan's usual shrewdness when dealing with humans, notably Illya Ravallion (best woman) and Su-Kassen (second-best woman - Lotara Who?)
Fortunately for Abnett, Saturnine is good enough to cover these moments up
Do you dig the Perpetuals as a concept?

Sure. Primarch-esque beings from a variety of backgrounds and origins who only enrich the setting are never a bad thing. Aren't Phoenix Lords kind of like Perpetuals? I don't really care about the metaphysics at play, but it's not like Matt Damon/John Cleese/Actaea were made from the same clay either. Remember that whacky knight dude from Fabius Bile: Primogenitor? He could be a Perpetual, and is a reference to some obscure piece of ancient lore, but Reynolds doesn't twist the story around him. He's just a weird-flavoured jelly baby you find in your packet while chomping down the rest. I could've done without the 'this happened before and events are a cycle/spiral' thing introduced in Mortis because it's just... boring. It seemingly robs characters of their agency, I guess. Causality is never a good concept to introduce to your story unless you do it right (and funnily enough it was done the best in one of the oldest examples - The Tragedy of Oedipus, or whatever it's called). Oll crashing the Vengebowl is beginning to feel more and more The Itchy & Scratchie & Poochie show the closer it gets. It doesn't help that Perpetuals violate ideas of focus, balance, importance, attention etc. in stories. I want to say it's related to the whole 'maxim of relevance' in conversational structure like we all studied in high school, but this is prose, not chatter so idk. I mean, that was already blown to smithereens by Kyme's Salamanders books, anyway, but still, publishers gonna publisher

tl;dr I feel like you can divide the BLibrary readership into people viewing this from an ''is this good for the story?'' in an artsy kind of way, and those who are like ''is this good for the lore/verse?'' in a more logic-IP-based way. In my opinion people who defend Perpetuals to the hilt tend to belong to the latter camp, whereas those who want rid of them are #mypeople and firmly sit in the former. It's no different from people who gobble up Gav Thorpe/Guy Haley works for all of the juicy infodumps they contain, whereas other people think they're about as riveting as a shopping list. As others have said, the Horus Heresy/Siege of Terra is such a salt-powered, inertia-driven blob at this point that it's going to please and upset everyone, every single book, in regards to everything

What about Oll Persson? Would he have potential in your opinion?

Edited by Just123456, 05 May 2021 - 04:54 PM.


#488
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If he had been present in the narrative sometime the past half a decade, or half the series? Probably, albeit not for the role he's getting here.


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#489
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What are you fishing for exactly Just123456?

As Dan showed with Olly, he is quite capable of taking a character, from scratch, and developing an arc over a single book that resonates emotionally, communicates a message, has relevance within the plot, and doesn't suck in all the scope towards itself, all while being the right tone, for the setting.

Ol, fails at every single one of those.
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#490
Just123456

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What are you fishing for exactly Just123456?
As Dan showed with Olly, he is quite capable of taking a character, from scratch, and developing an arc over a single book that resonates emotionally, communicates a message, has relevance within the plot, and doesn't suck in all the scope towards itself, all while being the right tone, for the setting.
Ol, fails at every single one of those.


Oll Persson is a good character in my opinion, but for the most part he is a minor one.

And people have wanked the DAOT notion to ridiculous lengths even though it's from a character who was executed for stealing water.

#491
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You are free to have that opinion.

I clearly don't agree, and find him utterly pointless, existing only as a plot twist device that will 'reveal all' in the final book.
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#492
DarkChaplain

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I think Oll is probably a good man, but I honestly can't bring myself to say that he's a good character.

 

He was a good character in Know No Fear, due to his actions there, but ever since he cut a hole into the fabric of reality and hopped through it in the usual Abnett-style rushed ending that KNF got there, he's hardly ever constituted a fully-realized character in the narrative. We're supposed to consider him super important, but his actions, or lack of activitiy throughout the series, make him a deus ex machina in waiting, not a good character.


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#493
Just123456

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I think Oll is probably a good man, but I honestly can't bring myself to say that he's a good character.
 
He was a good character in Know No Fear, due to his actions there, but ever since he cut a hole into the fabric of reality and hopped through it in the usual Abnett-style rushed ending that KNF got there, he's hardly ever constituted a fully-realized character in the narrative. We're supposed to consider him super important, but his actions, or lack of activitiy throughout the series, make him a deus ex machina in waiting, not a good character.


All of Dan Abnett's books are good.
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#494
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I think Oll is probably a good man, but I honestly can't bring myself to say that he's a good character.

He was a good character in Know No Fear, due to his actions there, but ever since he cut a hole into the fabric of reality and hopped through it in the usual Abnett-style rushed ending that KNF got there, he's hardly ever constituted a fully-realized character in the narrative. We're supposed to consider him super important, but his actions, or lack of activitiy throughout the series, make him a deus ex machina in waiting, not a good character.

All of Dan Abnett's books are good.

Press X.
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A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#495
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I think Oll is probably a good man, but I honestly can't bring myself to say that he's a good character.
 
He was a good character in Know No Fear, due to his actions there, but ever since he cut a hole into the fabric of reality and hopped through it in the usual Abnett-style rushed ending that KNF got there, he's hardly ever constituted a fully-realized character in the narrative. We're supposed to consider him super important, but his actions, or lack of activitiy throughout the series, make him a deus ex machina in waiting, not a good character.


All of Dan Abnett's books are good.

 

 

.....I think I'm done trying to discuss anything with you, bud. If that is your takeaway from / reply to what I was saying, then there's simply no point to go further.

 

This is no discussion, or even conversation. I actually have to agree with Scribe's wording from before: It's fishing for reactions.


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#496
Just123456

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I think Oll is probably a good man, but I honestly can't bring myself to say that he's a good character. He was a good character in Know No Fear, due to his actions there, but ever since he cut a hole into the fabric of reality and hopped through it in the usual Abnett-style rushed ending that KNF got there, he's hardly ever constituted a fully-realized character in the narrative. We're supposed to consider him super important, but his actions, or lack of activitiy throughout the series, make him a deus ex machina in waiting, not a good character.

All of Dan Abnett's books are good.
 .....I think I'm done trying to discuss anything with you, bud. If that is your takeaway from / reply to what I was saying, then there's simply no point to go further. This is no discussion, or even conversation. I actually have to agree with Scribe's wording from before: It's fishing for reactions.

I am sorry about that.

It has a Doctor Who theme. That being a good thing is a matter of subjectivity.

#497
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Slightly mixed feelings about Mortis. Unlike a lot of people, I really liked it. I didn't feel disappointed by it. I didn't think it was as good as The Solar War or Saturnine, but I don't go into anything expecting to like it as much as I did Saturnine, and I think The Solar War is French's best novel so far, so that's fine. It had a lot going for it, and I was surprised to find I even enjoyed the perpetual segments, which is saying something. There's a "but", though, and it's hard to say exactly what.

I think the problem I have is that this doesn't really feel like a novel, structurally, when I look back on it. Solar War, for example, has distinct intro/middle/end segments like a standalone book would. It sets its stage very well, builds up its dramatic tension, and works up to a climactic finish that sets up the next stage of the siege. I don't get that feeling from Mortis. It kind of feels like it's almost all middle. A lot happens, and a lot of what happens is interesting, but it doesn't feel like it was assembled quite right. Maybe it's the pacing. Maybe too many things are happening for them all to resolve properly within the page count.

I'm leaning in that direction - this either needed a plot thread or two less, or to have been a bigger book to accomodate them all. Something here might have been better split off into a novella to give it the focus in needed and provide everything else with breathing room.

Anyway, I said there was a lot I liked here, so I should mention some of it! The titan combat, which is a clear selling point, is very good. I'm not sure anything will ever match Titanicus in that regard, but there's an incredible sense of scale at work here that applies to both the titans themselves and the battle they fight. A complaint I had about books 2 and 3 of the siege was that nothing felt big and apocalyptic enough, and it definitely does here. An odd observation, maybe one that's peculiar to me: I like this better than anything in Titandeath as a depiction of mass titan warfare, but I liked that for its individual duels, and that seems ironic given the events involved.

Another big plus: actually, hang on, I'm going to spoilertag the rest of this-
Spoiler


Anyway, overall, I liked it, but I don't think it quite adds up to the sum of its parts.
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Its lonely cry comes shivering through the dark,

As beasts roar at the great biting flames,

"Blessed are the chains that bind him to the darkness

and cursed are the blades that leave him lame"


#498
A Melancholic Sanguinity

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Yeah, this one felt... bloated, like there were one or two threads running throughout the course of the novel that felt extraneous or at least redundant with other thematic threads in the narrative.

 

Offhand, I'd say that I thought the entire House Vyronii arc didn't need to exist - from a "lore coverage" standpoint it was redundant with the Legio Ignatum stuff, and from a writing execution standpoint, was tropey and cringe as all hell. I mean, I thought Annandale's Warlord had a ridiculously over-the-top depiction of the "petty & vicious idiot noble in charge" cliche, but boy does this one take the cake for some eye-rollingly mono-dimensional caricatures.

 

Similar with Shiban Khan/Katsuhiro's plot lines here; I will say Katsuhiro has surprisingly grown on me since his introduction in The Lost and the Damned, and I believe he's going to continue to be an ongoing POV throughout the rest of the Siege. There's a growing sense of purpose for him.

 

In contrast, Shiban's material here feels directionless (ironically, given that his physical journey is the most straightforward of them all in this book, being literally 'go that way'). I'm really not sure what the purpose of it all was, other than getting him from the catastrophe at Eternity Gate to presumably his part in the upcoming Warhawk. The thematic visual of him pulling along an infant is cool and all, but then it gets undercut by having Katsuhiro be the one to give a speech at the end about life going on and how they're fighting for the future. There was also a repetitive monotony to his sections, with the repeated auditory hallucinations/spirit guides and the constant "no backwards step."

 

It definitely feels like a transition novel. Overall some cool thematic elements, and French's prose fits the dense, grinding slog of the Siege, but for a book that, as the author's afterword states, is all about journeys and getting things from here to there, comes across as curiously directionless in some key areas.


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#499
Fedor

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The part i liked the least was the Dark Angels/ hollow mountain scenario. Not the writing per se, but it just seemed a clunky insertion to give the Dark Angels something to do. From a strategic perspective, there's just no way something so important would be such a sideshow, with Dorn seemingly none the wiser.


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#500
Just123456

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The subjectivity is strong in this thread!
Personally, I am not that keen on the perpetuals concept so far or the fact that they “multiplied” but b1soul makes some really good points.
At the end of the day:
1. It appears the perpetuals (possibly as an update to the Sensei) was Abnett’s idea.
2. The High Lords of GW/BL clearly agreed and authorised that concept (so it is cannon).
3. Abnett is definitely tying things together with his 40k Inquisitor books creating a meta narrative - but again we know whatever the end game is (spoilers in the penitent and the Magos speculation threads
-

Spoiler
)
Abnett needed to get permission and the simple fact he GOT permission means that GW/BL liked the idea and whatever it is will be cannon.
Subjectively some folks may not like it but it is nonetheless happening.
As I say, despite being a big Abnett fan, I am not a fan of the perpetuals SO FAR. However, I need to see what the climax is. I am more worried it will end up being a bit MEH!
One of the glaring problems (for me) about the perpetuals is that their “historical memories/flashbacks” seem to exclusively inhabit the period that is our real world historical period (ie x thousand BCE to the 20th Century AD). We are missing anything covering approx 28 thousand years of history prior to The Unification Wars!
How about some flashbacks to (for example):
- 1st man mission to Mars/Jupiter etc
- 1st sub light colony ship to another star system
- 1st encounter with xenos
- Discovery of the Warp
- Men of Stone/Iron
- Coming of Old Night
- etc etc
Instead we get the Argonauts (who are a literary invention anyway) and WWI, WWII etc
Not restricted to perpetuals of course. As far back as McNeil’s Mechanicum (I think) we had the implication The Emp was St George (and the dragon). Have there been no heroes (still mythical/legends to those living in M31) during that 28k period??????


Not to well-ackshully your post, because it is a great post, but in The Unremembered Empire, Matt Damon makes reference to events he participated in during M19, M22 and of course M30. This always stood out to me because, as you rightly say, BL authors can't stop referencing the Greeks or Shakesp1re (whoever that is), despite tens of thousands of (more) interesting pseudo-history taking place between our current time and the time of the Emperor. It was a great move by Abnett and added a much-needed veracity to things, once again showing why he's an excellent sci-fi author

Again, not to push this thread down another Perpetuals - Yay or Nay? route, because Roomsky has already plot-twist'd things sufficiently in regards to Mortis, but in my opinion the main reason people dislike Perpetuals, and are almost afraid to state it for fear of backlash, so instead seek to build logical and impartial arguments against them, when it simply boils down to this, is... because 'we' were already happy with what 'we' had before. The Vengebowl might've undergone several revisions over the years, but what we had circa. Collected Visions or that giant Billy King piece of writing (I have no idea where that's from - White Dwarf? The Horus Heresy boardgame?), sealed into everlasting glory by Adrian Smith's most iconic painting, is already perfect. That painting is the Genesis of 40k, where the Emperor defeated the Great Devil and retired to His Golden Throne to overlook and guide his mortal flock forever more. Replace Horus with a giant snake and edit out the Chaos Marines, and that image exists on a billion, billion cathedrals all across the galaxy. I honestly feel like because Laurie Goulding used to frequent this and other forums, and throw his weight around (when someone with his actual, tangible, real-world responsibilities should've known better), people have been bludgeoned into accepting Oll going all BERSERK and cutting his way behind the Emperor/Horus with his interdimensional sword at the climax of events is some kind of mandatory pill to swallow and enjoy. No, it's not. Just as people are free to look forward to it, so are others to dread it. Frankly, this Oll twist is the same type of pouring custard over your roast dinner as Reddit's trademark 'Chaos-Sanguinius mortally wounds the Emperor thing' despite this one's likely ascendance to untouchable canonicity sometime in 2022

Personally, I thought Olly Piers defending the banner of the Emperor's image at the Eternity Gate Spaceport was so good, with a solid enough setup in regards to themes like the mechanics of mythmaking (although Angron's mere presence on Terra should be causing every single mortal for miles around to weep blood, turn their own tongues into chewing gum and begin convulsing on the ground because a Prince of Khorne isn't a giant red Tonka Toy but a fulcrum of unimaginably concentrated warp-power - see The Emperor's Gift, but hey, it's a cool scene)... that I feel like the Pious myth was perfectly explained and justified, and after finishing Saturnine I was immediately struck by ''well, what's the point of the other Oll now? Oh, that...''

This is why I love the Black Legion series. There's no meta-narrative. Guilliman isn't going to walk into Khayon's cell in book #9 and reminisce about the compliance of Wiki Pedia during the Great Crusade. It's Warhammer 40,000: The Greatest Hits. Every book has been a knockout thus far and every book will continue to be a knockout because the series just rocks. While I believe the Reynolds Bile trilogy surpassed it from a technical standpoint, this is still the 'best' and 'truest' BL series going on right now from where I stand - and has been since it dropped in 2014. Boom
As a person who digs the Perpetuals, I hope Dan Abnett will give them a good wrap up in the last book.

Edited by Just123456, 06 May 2021 - 10:03 PM.





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