Alpharius

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

must.. resist...urge...to..click...spoilers 

 

It's going to be a long couple months trying to avoid this thread

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't read the book but the spoilers here...

 

From what I see, I don't like it. The reason being:

 

Horus was the 1st. Everything from the interaction of Horus and the Emperor, the later Primarch's jealousy, to Horus' own jealousy and interactions with other Primarchs since they were discovered, is just pointless. Because Alpharius.

 

Leman Russ vs Horus, 2nd taking on the 1st. Except not and the whole rivalry pointless.

 

It makes Alpharius special beyond independent and favoured by the Emperor to infiltrate his own Legions just never sat well with the background for me.

 

I mean, seriously, they had Librarians pre-Nikea and Apothecaries throughout the Horus Heresy and before, so how could the Legions even have that infiltration beyond isolated fleets? It's just silly and doesn't work out.

 

"Funny how some Salamanders seem to not have the ebony skin colour. We won't bother checking that out."

 

"Thousand Sons are definitely all psychic and can read minds etc. But don't do that with those brothers over there as that hurts the plot."

 

"Look at those Rout without the fangs and smell of wet dog. Not curious at all."

 

Which doesn't even take into account the geneseed actually being reviewed by the Apothecarium.

 

Absurd.

 

Then there's the whole "what was Alpharius even doing?" And why didn't he just tell Dorn what he was doing instead?

 

I don't like any of it really. I hate seemingly omnipotent characters who can't fail. Forget calling Ultramarines Mary Sue, it's the Alpha Legion.

 

Well until Dorn fixed that plot line at least. The only redeeming factor.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I haven't read the book but the spoilers here...

 

From what I see, I don't like it. The reason being:

 

Horus was the 1st. Everything from the interaction of Horus and the Emperor, the later Primarch's jealousy, to Horus' own jealousy and interactions with other Primarchs since they were discovered, is just pointless. Because Alpharius.

 

Leman Russ vs Horus, 2nd taking on the 1st. Except not and the whole rivalry pointless.

 

It makes Alpharius special beyond independent and favoured by the Emperor to infiltrate his own Legions just never sat well with the background for me.

 

I mean, seriously, they had Librarians pre-Nikea and Apothecaries throughout the Horus Heresy and before, so how could the Legions even have that infiltration beyond isolated fleets? It's just silly and doesn't work out.

 

"Funny how some Salamanders seem to not have the ebony skin colour. We won't bother checking that out."

 

"Thousand Sons are definitely all psychic and can read minds etc. But don't do that with those brothers over there as that hurts the plot."

 

"Look at those Rout without the fangs and smell of wet dog. Not curious at all."

 

Which doesn't even take into account the geneseed actually being reviewed by the Apothecarium.

 

Absurd.

 

Then there's the whole "what was Alpharius even doing?" And why didn't he just tell Dorn what he was doing instead?

 

I don't like any of it really. I hate seemingly omnipotent characters who can't fail. Forget calling Ultramarines Mary Sue, it's the Alpha Legion.

 

Well until Dorn fixed that plot line at least. The only redeeming factor.

I mean, your points would be valid except...

no one knew he was found first, so it doesn't matter. Horus thinks he was first, and as far as almost everyone is concerned, he was. His perception is what matters, not the extreme secret that he was second.

 

Other than that, other posters seem to say the book makes his "primarch power" be disguising himself, similar to how corax can turn invisible. Not that those types of things are the best explanations for stuff, but at least it's...plausible, given what the primarchs are.

 

I do agree alpha legion are a little too infallible in their portrayals though.

[Noserenda]

What SkimaskMohawk said mostly, but y'know, Proper Planning Prevents Pee Poor Performance ;) 

[Karhedron]

To be fair, something along these lines was hinted in the Lion's Primarch book when someone popped up claiming to be Alpharius.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

To be fair, something along these lines was hinted in the Lion's Primarch book when someone popped up claiming to be Alpharius.

 

Must of missed this, what happened?

[Darkwrath121]

 

 

To be fair, something along these lines was hinted in the Lion's Primarch book when someone popped up claiming to be Alpharius.

Must of missed this, what happened?

It's from Wraight's 'First Legion' short, from the Sons of the Emperor anthology. Not the primarch novel.

[Kelborn]

I haven't read the book but the spoilers here...

 

From what I see, I don't like it. The reason being:

 

Horus was the 1st. Everything from the interaction of Horus and the Emperor, the later Primarch's jealousy, to Horus' own jealousy and interactions with other Primarchs since they were discovered, is just pointless. Because Alpharius.

 

Leman Russ vs Horus, 2nd taking on the 1st. Except not and the whole rivalry pointless.

 

It makes Alpharius special beyond independent and favoured by the Emperor to infiltrate his own Legions just never sat well with the background for me.

 

I mean, seriously, they had Librarians pre-Nikea and Apothecaries throughout the Horus Heresy and before, so how could the Legions even have that infiltration beyond isolated fleets? It's just silly and doesn't work out.

 

"Funny how some Salamanders seem to not have the ebony skin colour. We won't bother checking that out."

 

"Thousand Sons are definitely all psychic and can read minds etc. But don't do that with those brothers over there as that hurts the plot."

 

"Look at those Rout without the fangs and smell of wet dog. Not curious at all."

 

Which doesn't even take into account the geneseed actually being reviewed by the Apothecarium.

 

Absurd.

 

Then there's the whole "what was Alpharius even doing?" And why didn't he just tell Dorn what he was doing instead?

 

I don't like any of it really. I hate seemingly omnipotent characters who can't fail. Forget calling Ultramarines Mary Sue, it's the Alpha Legion.

 

Well until Dorn fixed that plot line at least. The only redeeming factor.

From what I've understood

it's Alpharius who infiltrated the Legions and not his sons.

And if it's his certain gift, I'm fine with it.

 

Also him being the very first primarch is also ok as the official records still have Horus being the first and it doesn't change anything for Horus. Especially when he had discovered Omegon aka Alpharius.

 

Then again, I assume that the XXth Legion also might have access to genestocks or even Alpharius himself gathered some which would enable them to have Sith Legionaries with XIIth Legion geneseed or XVth.

Nurture vs nature.

 

Again, to each his own. Some didn't enjoy the Lion novel, I quite enjoyed it.

I'll probably enjoy this one for sure. Especially as it's based on Alans work. :)

Edited January 26, 2021 by Kelborn

[rookie40K]

Brother’s, the second I read Battle Captain Corpus wrote the words “I’m out” I knew we had been infiltrated by Alpharius. Either that, or he’s Mike Brooks who has yet to recover from getting into character. I must read this book now.

[Fedor]

I don't mind the revelation for Alpharius as at least it's in keeping with the Legion theme as a mysterious force working behind the scenes and creates some interesting possibilities. As long as it's well written. It at least seems to be using the forgeworld lore on their possible origins in a more interesting way than just taking an exemplary battle, or acting as a way to get across all the new organisational fluff.

 

The 30k "mary sue" lore from a forgeworld perspective will forever be held by the Dark Angels anyway. Now there is an example of layering on lots of extra little things that had little need to be there to nail the theme/vibe they were going for, with its fleets of gloriana battleships, supersecret missions that nobody else can know about or handle and handful of veterans killing hundreds of SoH.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Fedor

[Karhedron]

 

 

To be fair, something along these lines was hinted in the Lion's Primarch book when someone popped up claiming to be Alpharius.

Must of missed this, what happened?

 

It's from Wraight's 'First Legion' short, from the Sons of the Emperor anthology. Not the primarch novel.

 

Sorry, I am getting my prequels all muddled up. 

[Lucerne]

I'm sorry but even if 50% of these spoilers are correct (I don't doubt them!) then I'm out. There's no way I'm buying or reading this. It just genuinely sounds like an author trying to shoe horn his own concept into an established storyline (Horus being the 1st primarch discovered etc) in a cack handed way to draw attention to his own poorly conceived work.

Kudos to those that can stomach it though.

 

BCC

You...may want to read the FW lore before complaining.

 

It's also funny how there's a dedicated group of anti-fans who have issues with every single time Alpha Legion get the spotlight in a way entirely in keeping with their FW lore while having no meaningful issues with loyalists having non-thematic and non-explained absurdities. (Looking at you, magically multiplying Ultramarine fleet...after the entire Shadow Crusade, or Literally Everything About Heresy Dark Angels.)

"Alpharius was at the Emperor's side from the get-go and the AL acted as the early wetworks squad" isn't exactly new- it's Bligh era lore, we've just seen what the truth of that in-universe rumour was.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Kelborn

[StrangerOrders]

I for one sort of appreciate that FW went out of its way to give every Legion their own flavor of BS.

 

What I do despise is when we dont get to actually see the steps and the gears of said faction during their own story. Its why I hate Legion but Praetorian of Dorn is one my favorites.

 

I will tolerate any level of BS as long the author is creative enough to make it plausible. And outright love it if it seems brilliant.

 

I think Brooks is going more for my favored approach here and is tapping into some really good fluff. So I am good with it.

 

Except 'This is a lie', I will take my right as a reader and ignore those two lines to better enjoy the story lol. Because I refuse to accept Alpharius is a devout writer of fanfiction about himself. (I recognize the irony here).

[Sons of Horus]

Gonna have to agree with BCC and Idaho on this one.

 

Just my 2c:

Horus being first isn't just important from within the lore but from a meta perspective as well. It adds gravitas to his prominence and preeminence among his superhuman brotherhood. A significant portion of why he was considered the favored son in the first place wasn't just about his skill and merit but his position as first found. It's a core part of what makes him a great villain for the setting as he was essentially the first son, the favorite and most trusted/beloved. He was the paragon who rebelled.

 

It's clear that GW has moved away from this as they've brought more and more of the other Primarchs into the spotlight to eventually overshadow the Warmaster in all the aspects that made him great and important to the story in the first place and imo this waters down the drama a lot. Alpharius being the first found is now not just the most recent, but also maybe the worst, thing they've done to detract more from Horus. Possibly because being the first Primarch was the only thing he had left that still marked him out as special.

 

If they could take it this far I'm now afraid of what they'll do to the ending of the series tbh.

 

Feel free to disagree and enjoy whatever you want

[Lucerne]

I mean, again, this wasn't exactly a new plot point? Alpharius being a quiet hatchetman doesn't change that Horus, for all intents and purposes, is the favored son in the spotlight and the most relevant in the role of Primarch. Alpharius is literally just in the background.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Kelborn

[mc warhammer]

 

I haven't read the book but the spoilers here...

 

From what I see, I don't like it. The reason being:

 

Horus was the 1st. Everything from the interaction of Horus and the Emperor, the later Primarch's jealousy, to Horus' own jealousy and interactions with other Primarchs since they were discovered, is just pointless. Because Alpharius.

 

Leman Russ vs Horus, 2nd taking on the 1st. Except not and the whole rivalry pointless.

 

It makes Alpharius special beyond independent and favoured by the Emperor to infiltrate his own Legions just never sat well with the background for me.

 

I mean, seriously, they had Librarians pre-Nikea and Apothecaries throughout the Horus Heresy and before, so how could the Legions even have that infiltration beyond isolated fleets? It's just silly and doesn't work out.

 

"Funny how some Salamanders seem to not have the ebony skin colour. We won't bother checking that out."

 

"Thousand Sons are definitely all psychic and can read minds etc. But don't do that with those brothers over there as that hurts the plot."

 

"Look at those Rout without the fangs and smell of wet dog. Not curious at all."

 

Which doesn't even take into account the geneseed actually being reviewed by the Apothecarium.

 

Absurd.

 

Then there's the whole "what was Alpharius even doing?" And why didn't he just tell Dorn what he was doing instead?

 

I don't like any of it really. I hate seemingly omnipotent characters who can't fail. Forget calling Ultramarines Mary Sue, it's the Alpha Legion.

 

Well until Dorn fixed that plot line at least. The only redeeming factor.

I mean, your points would be valid except...

no one knew he was found first, so it doesn't matter. Horus thinks he was first, and as far as almost everyone is concerned, he was. His perception is what matters, not the extreme secret that he was second.

 

Other than that, other posters seem to say the book makes his "primarch power" be disguising himself, similar to how corax can turn invisible. Not that those types of things are the best explanations for stuff, but at least it's...plausible, given what the primarchs are.

 

I do agree alpha legion are a little too infallible in their portrayals though.

 

adding to this

 

horus being found first. magnus had been in contact with the emperor apparently for a long time before their physical reunion, possibly before horus's.

 

adding to that, the book apparently says that alpharius spent most of his time time with malcador over the emperor. something that goes a long way to explaining why he thinks the way he does.

 

all the plaudits of being found first, and of being the closest to the emperor, still stand for horus (debatable with magnus) even in the face of this new info.

 

as for why didn't alpharius inform dorn? this book also adds more context to the events of praetorian: alpharius helped conceive of the blood games in order to exploit and highlight weaknesses in the palace defenses. the events of praetorian could be viewed as his greatest blood game.

 

finally, blending into other legions? now that we have info suggesting that it was innate warp/magic/psychic ability that allowed him to do that over just a skill makes it believable for me that he could do so even in legions like the TS.

[Dagoth Ur]

Horus being the first found primarch is not important to his character. Him and everyone around him believing that he is and thus somehow special, is all that matters. This is a trope as old as time - we see it in Sîfrit in the Lay of the Nibelungs in the 12th Century and we see it in K in Bladerunner 2049. Hell, it's one of the most compelling things about Horus' interaction with and thoughts about Russ early on after his discovery. He resents him and thinks him his lesser, even if he doesn't want to admit it. Suddenly, he isn't daddy's favorite or only boy anymore. Suddenly he has to share. Horus' arc has always hinged more on his own vision of himself in relation to the Emperor than on the display his father gave him. Besides - even Magnus has had earlier contact with Big E than Horus and this is old news. Horus was "found first" in all the ways that matter - to the public, to the narrative of primus inter pares that is built around him and to himself. He was the paragon that rebelled because he was painted as the paragon to the public.

 

Alpharius being the first found doesn't change these things in the slightest - because Horus, his siblings and the Imperium don't know about any of it. Nothing introduced in this novel is a new concept. Alpharius crashing on Terra as well as Alpharius (or Omegon) subsuming a dead world's technology and assembling a flotilla of his own are all theories and stories circulated in the third Blackbook: Extermination - which was published almost 7 years ago. That book also - conveniently - implies from an in-universe perspective that legion infiltration has been going on for much longer than just the Horus Heresy (I would also like to point out that we do have 40k examples of the Alpha Legion using Astartes Operatives that don't carry AL geneseed: see the Emperor's Swords and the incident at Ghorstangrad). Extermination also conveniently introduces us to the concept of the Trefoil Legions - three legions that were kept apart for secretive purposes and granted certain remits of their own, those being the Space Wolves, the Salamanders and, you guessed it, the Alpha Legion. So unless someone is wilfully ignorant, I can't exactly see how anyone could see this as an author shoehorning in his own interpretation of things. If anyone wants to point fingers, they shouldn't be pointing them at Mike but at Alan Bligh.

 

Horus' potential as a villain and as a character doesn't hinge on the objective truth - it hinges on the myth that is built around him and that myth is alive and well.

 

Everything is canon - not everything is true.

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus being the first found primarch is not important to his character. Him and everyone around him believing that he is and thus somehow special, is all that matters. This is a trope as old as time - we see it in Sîfrit in the Lay of the Nibelungs in the 12th Century and we see it in K in Bladerunner 2049. Hell, it's one of the most compelling things about Horus' interaction with and thoughts about Russ early on after his discovery. He resents him and thinks him his lesser, even if he doesn't want to admit it. Suddenly, he isn't daddy's favorite or only boy anymore. Suddenly he has to share. Horus' arc has always hinged more on his own vision of himself in relation to the Emperor than on the display his father gave him. Besides - even Magnus has had earlier contact with Big E than Horus and this is old news. Horus was "found first" in all the ways that matter - to the public, to the narrative of primus inter pares that is built around him and to himself. He was the paragon that rebelled because he was painted as the paragon to the public.

 

Alpharius being the first found doesn't change these things in the slightest - because Horus, his siblings and the Imperium don't know about any of it. Nothing introduced in this novel is a new concept. Alpharius crashing on Terra as well as Alpharius (or Omegon) subsuming a dead world's technology and assembling a flotilla of his own are all theories and stories circulated in the third Blackbook: Extermination - which was published almost 7 years ago. That book also - conveniently - implies from an in-universe perspective that legion infiltration has been going on for much longer than just the Horus Heresy (I would also like to point out that we do have 40k examples of the Alpha Legion using Astartes Operatives that don't carry AL geneseed: see the Emperor's Swords and the incident at Ghorstangrad). Extermination also conveniently introduces us to the concept of the Trefoil Legions - three legions that were kept apart for secretive purposes and granted certain remits of their own, those being the Space Wolves, the Salamanders and, you guessed it, the Alpha Legion. So unless someone is wilfully ignorant, I can't exactly see how anyone could see this as an author shoehorning in his own interpretation of things. If anyone wants to point fingers, they shouldn't be pointing them at Mike but at Alan Bligh.

 

Horus' potential as a villain and as a character doesn't hinge on the objective truth - it hinges on the myth that is built around him and that myth is alive and well.

 

Everything is canon - not everything is true.

Great points and the comparison to K is spot on.

[Kelborn]

Overall reminder to keep on using spoiper tags.

Had to add some here and there.

 

 

Personal agreement with Observer. Great points! :tu:

 

Very own thought.

I'd praise Brooks even more if he had began the book with

This is a lie

And ended it with

This is headcanon

 

;)

[DarkChaplain]

My only issue with the reveal is

In Wolfsbane, we see the Emperor almost giddy about Horus "no longer being the only one". We see the seeds of envy within Horus, and those are his, but it kind of diminishes the Emperor's "I thought I'd lost you all, and then I found you, Horus, and now I know there's more because Russ is your brother" part. I thought that was a very strong scene, and one in which we can almost see the Emperor's dreams becoming possible again. To now have Alpharius being around for potentially decades before Russ was found, that cheapens this moment between the two.

[battle captain corpus]

DarkChaplain I couldn’t agree more!

 

BCC

[StrangerOrders]

Hmm...

 

Wait a sec...

 

This makes Valdor very confusing in light of the tension among the Trinity. With Valdor being so against the idea and him and Malc arguing over Primarchs as a theoretical if the Emp is right about their survival.

[Karhedron]

My only issue with the reveal is

In Wolfsbane, we see the Emperor almost giddy about Horus "no longer being the only one". We see the seeds of envy within Horus, and those are his, but it kind of diminishes the Emperor's "I thought I'd lost you all, and then I found you, Horus, and now I know there's more because Russ is your brother" part. I thought that was a very strong scene, and one in which we can almost see the Emperor's dreams becoming possible again. To now have Alpharius being around for potentially decades before Russ was found, that cheapens this moment between the two.

I see your point but....

 

It would not be the first time the Emperor lied. At the very least, Master of Mankind shows that people tend to see what they want to see in the Emperor. Horus wanted a loving father and his ego made him want to be first. So that is what the Emperor gave him.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Kelborn

[Captain Idaho]

 

 

I haven't read the book but the spoilers here...

From what I see, I don't like it. The reason being:

Horus was the 1st. Everything from the interaction of Horus and the Emperor, the later Primarch's jealousy, to Horus' own jealousy and interactions with other Primarchs since they were discovered, is just pointless. Because Alpharius.

Leman Russ vs Horus, 2nd taking on the 1st. Except not and the whole rivalry pointless.

It makes Alpharius special beyond independent and favoured by the Emperor to infiltrate his own Legions just never sat well with the background for me.

I mean, seriously, they had Librarians pre-Nikea and Apothecaries throughout the Horus Heresy and before, so how could the Legions even have that infiltration beyond isolated fleets? It's just silly and doesn't work out.

"Funny how some Salamanders seem to not have the ebony skin colour. We won't bother checking that out."

"Thousand Sons are definitely all psychic and can read minds etc. But don't do that with those brothers over there as that hurts the plot."

"Look at those Rout without the fangs and smell of wet dog. Not curious at all."

Which doesn't even take into account the geneseed actually being reviewed by the Apothecarium.

Absurd.

Then there's the whole "what was Alpharius even doing?" And why didn't he just tell Dorn what he was doing instead?

I don't like any of it really. I hate seemingly omnipotent characters who can't fail. Forget calling Ultramarines Mary Sue, it's the Alpha Legion.

Well until Dorn fixed that plot line at least. The only redeeming factor.

I mean, your points would be valid except...

no one knew he was found first, so it doesn't matter. Horus thinks he was first, and as far as almost everyone is concerned, he was. His perception is what matters, not the extreme secret that he was second.

Other than that, other posters seem to say the book makes his "primarch power" be disguising himself, similar to how corax can turn invisible. Not that those types of things are the best explanations for stuff, but at least it's...plausible, given what the primarchs are.

I do agree alpha legion are a little too infallible in their portrayals though.

My points are all still valid, not just because you've dismissed them.

 

We, the readers, know of the reasons for the Heresy from Horus and how they all interact with each other. Reading something and knowing it's all nonsense cheapens it for many and just makes you go "oh so it's all a big misunderstanding from someone" just makes you feel short changed.

[Kelborn]

 

My only issue with the reveal is

In Wolfsbane, we see the Emperor almost giddy about Horus "no longer being the only one". We see the seeds of envy within Horus, and those are his, but it kind of diminishes the Emperor's "I thought I'd lost you all, and then I found you, Horus, and now I know there's more because Russ is your brother" part. I thought that was a very strong scene, and one in which we can almost see the Emperor's dreams becoming possible again. To now have Alpharius being around for potentially decades before Russ was found, that cheapens this moment between the two.

I see your point but....

 

It would not be the first time the Emperor lied. At the very least, Master of Mankind shows that people tend to see what they want to see in the Emperor. Horus wanted a loving father and his ego made him want to be first. So that is what the Emperor gave him.

[Enter THIS! Gif]

Everyone is hearing what he wants/ expects the Emperor to say. Neither they as actual counterparts in a discussion with the Emperor nor we as readers know what's the truth. Even the authors don't know it and that's why they leave it open and vague.

 

In that terms, Alpharius might even be the closest to the Emperor or he learned the most of him. Who knows?

 

It even adds to that scene as it further emphasize

The tragedy of a self deceived Horus by believing him to be the first and most important one to the Emperor while in fact

A) he wasn't the first, thusnot the special one he believed himself to be

B) Emperor lied to him from the very beginning (further enhancing his daddy issues)

C) his later rebellion is more grounded because of what the Emperor did to him

 

"That was a lie."

 

 

 

I could get used to that quote. ;)

Edited January 27, 2021 by Kelborn