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Castigator Reveal


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#51
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TL;DR: I am not a fan of the Castigator, it's too much of a tank as a tank for me. I wish they had gone a different direction with an equivalent unit, almost like a melta bomb trebuchet or something.

I think you've hit the nail on the head from my view too.

Give me a mortar vehicle that fires melta bombs. Have a team of two loading it, one sister putting the bomb in the breech while a second blesses and anoints it with holy oils. Leaves room for there to be a shrine in the back to perform the blessing, tying it into the range, while giving the girls more long range firepower.

I'm looking forward to seeing how people convert the Castigator to make it less 'subtle' and more 'saintly. Even so I really want the lore to add melta or bolter rounds to those main guns somehow. I appreciate that the occasional plasma gun sneaks in past the trinity rule (though to be fair those still burn heretics), but the sisters getting a new tank and not making the main cannon one of their holy weapons feels like a missed opportunity.
melta cannon would have been good. 36" S10 -2 D d3+2 with the melta special rule
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#52
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This may not be a popular take, but I am really not a fan of the Castigator.

Do the Adepta Sororitas need more armor? Yes.
Do they need more powerful long-range shooting? Yes.
Do they need more vehicles? Yes.

Do they need a hybridized port from both the IG and SM Codexes? No.

For me (in my not-always-humble-opinion), part of the appeal of the SoB is their uniqueness. They are different from not only other Imperial factions, but from other Factions in the game/lore in general.

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TL;DR: I am not a fan of the Castigator, it's too much of a tank as a tank for me. I wish they had gone a different direction with an equivalent unit, almost like a melta bomb trebuchet or something.

I could see a melta trebuchet in my head and it seems super cool lol.

I look at the SoB sort of like what the USMC is transforming into. An elite mobile infantry based strike force.(they've gotten rid of their MBTs and will be operating off of large amphibious ships and soon small amphibious ships.)

The ecclesiarcy will have no problem roping the IG into campaigns to provide them the ass they need, so something like the castigator would be unnecessary.
Not really sure what I'd prefer that wouldn't unnecessarily compete with what they already have, but the castigator just isn't it.

Edit
Just had a thought, I know SoB have the hovering pulpit, but what about a sentinel pulpit, standard weapon heavy Flamer, with options for multimelta, heavy bolter, or frag missile launcher, and an infiltrate/scout rule of some sort, or objective secured. (Or an armored variant with OS, and a scout variant with a pregame scout move?)

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 30 March 2021 - 12:18 AM.

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#53
sitnam

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Do they need a hybridized port from both the IG and SM Codexes? No.

For me (in my not-always-humble-opinion), part of the appeal of the SoB is their uniqueness. They are different from not only other Imperial factions, but from other Factions in the game/lore in general.


TL;DR: I am not a fan of the Castigator, it's too much of a tank as a tank for me. I wish they had gone a different direction with an equivalent unit, almost like a melta bomb trebuchet or something.


I mean, Sisters have always used equipment in common with the Astartes tho. Power armor, Bolters, Rhinos, Razorback equivalents, and even a super badass and gothic Whirlwind equivalent. I get not liking the tank, but seeing as the Sisters have always used the Rhino chassis it makes sense that they have a Predator equivalent. I’d of preferred a more lady like main armament, but overall the Castigator makes sense.

As far as being fairly utilitarian, it fits into the same aesthetic range as the new Rhinos, so it’s not without precedence.

 

 

 



I look at the SoB sort of like what the USMC is transforming into. An elite mobile infantry based strike force.(they've gotten rid of their MBTs and will be operating off of large amphibious ships and soon small amphibious ships.)

The ecclesiarcy will have no problem roping the IG into campaigns to provide them the ass they need, so something like the castigator would be unnecessary.
Not really sure what I'd prefer that wouldn't unnecessarily compete with what they already have, but the castigator just isn't it.

 

 

I think the Tempestus Scions fulfill that role way better then the Sororitas do. The Tempestus can operate pretty much independently of Astra Militarum forces as elite infantry, and mostly use high mobility vehicles. Tempestus also can do the whole amphibious (orbital) invasion thing.

 

The Sororitas are hard to equate in modern terms, but remember that they aren't ecclesiarchal lapdogs. The Sisters are watchful over the priesthood for corruption, apostasy, and demagoguery. If they get a hint that some Cardinal is trying to raise  frateris templar, they will smack him and his private army down. I think it'd be fairly useful for an order to have a few tanks in stock. Some times they wont have the benefit of Guard support, especially if a heretic turns the local PDF to their side.


Edited by sitnam, 30 March 2021 - 03:40 AM.

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#54
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I think you're being close minded, the castigator is clearly a space protestant to the exorcist's space catholicism.


That's sounding awful close to heresy! Might be time for an interfaith war!

I get that it fits with the rhino, but the rhino was constrained. A rhino has been a known quantity in the game for 30 years. People know what their stats are and know what they look like. It needed to keep enough of that design for people to recognise it as a glance. Even so they still added ornate doors, tons of purity seals and a mini shrine. It looks as decorated as you can without making it not look like a rhino.

The Castigator was the chance to make something new with no expectations for looks and rules, and they didn't. I guess that's where my disappointment comes from. Instead they made a predator clone and brought in the same restrictions on design that the rhino had to have. Albeit with a fixed turret size.

Ah who am I kidding, as soon as a new vehicle was competing with penitent engines I was never going to like it :-p

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#55
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Do they need a hybridized port from both the IG and SM Codexes? No.

For me (in my not-always-humble-opinion), part of the appeal of the SoB is their uniqueness. They are different from not only other Imperial factions, but from other Factions in the game/lore in general.


TL;DR: I am not a fan of the Castigator, it's too much of a tank as a tank for me. I wish they had gone a different direction with an equivalent unit, almost like a melta bomb trebuchet or something.


I mean, Sisters have always used equipment in common with the Astartes tho. Power armor, Bolters, Rhinos, Razorback equivalents, and even a super badass and gothic Whirlwind equivalent. I get not liking the tank, but seeing as the Sisters have always used the Rhino chassis it makes sense that they have a Predator equivalent. I’d of preferred a more lady like main armament, but overall the Castigator makes sense.

As far as being fairly utilitarian, it fits into the same aesthetic range as the new Rhinos, so it’s not without precedence.



I look at the SoB sort of like what the USMC is transforming into. An elite mobile infantry based strike force.(they've gotten rid of their MBTs and will be operating off of large amphibious ships and soon small amphibious ships.)

The ecclesiarcy will have no problem roping the IG into campaigns to provide them the ass they need, so something like the castigator would be unnecessary.
Not really sure what I'd prefer that wouldn't unnecessarily compete with what they already have, but the castigator just isn't it.



I think the Tempestus Scions fulfill that role way better then the Sororitas do. The Tempestus can operate pretty much independently of Astra Militarum forces as elite infantry, and mostly use high mobility vehicles. Tempestus also can do the whole amphibious (orbital) invasion thing.

The Sororitas are hard to equate in modern terms, but remember that they aren't ecclesiarchal lapdogs. The Sisters are watchful over the priesthood for corruption, apostasy, and demagoguery. If they get a hint that some Cardinal is trying to raise frateris templar, they will smack him and his private army down. I think it'd be fairly useful for an order to have a few tanks in stock. Some times they wont have the benefit of Guard support, especially if a heretic turns the local PDF to their side.
tempest is scions are Astra militarum...

If heretics turn a local PDF they call the guard or marines, and hold out with their typical vehicles.
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#56
sitnam

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Do they need a hybridized port from both the IG and SM Codexes? No.

For me (in my not-always-humble-opinion), part of the appeal of the SoB is their uniqueness. They are different from not only other Imperial factions, but from other Factions in the game/lore in general.


TL;DR: I am not a fan of the Castigator, it's too much of a tank as a tank for me. I wish they had gone a different direction with an equivalent unit, almost like a melta bomb trebuchet or something.

I mean, Sisters have always used equipment in common with the Astartes tho. Power armor, Bolters, Rhinos, Razorback equivalents, and even a super badass and gothic Whirlwind equivalent. I get not liking the tank, but seeing as the Sisters have always used the Rhino chassis it makes sense that they have a Predator equivalent. I’d of preferred a more lady like main armament, but overall the Castigator makes sense.

As far as being fairly utilitarian, it fits into the same aesthetic range as the new Rhinos, so it’s not without precedence.

I look at the SoB sort of like what the USMC is transforming into. An elite mobile infantry based strike force.(they've gotten rid of their MBTs and will be operating off of large amphibious ships and soon small amphibious ships.)

The ecclesiarcy will have no problem roping the IG into campaigns to provide them the ass they need, so something like the castigator would be unnecessary.
Not really sure what I'd prefer that wouldn't unnecessarily compete with what they already have, but the castigator just isn't it.

I think the Tempestus Scions fulfill that role way better then the Sororitas do. The Tempestus can operate pretty much independently of Astra Militarum forces as elite infantry, and mostly use high mobility vehicles. Tempestus also can do the whole amphibious (orbital) invasion thing.

The Sororitas are hard to equate in modern terms, but remember that they aren't ecclesiarchal lapdogs. The Sisters are watchful over the priesthood for corruption, apostasy, and demagoguery. If they get a hint that some Cardinal is trying to raise frateris templar, they will smack him and his private army down. I think it'd be fairly useful for an order to have a few tanks in stock. Some times they wont have the benefit of Guard support, especially if a heretic turns the local PDF to their side.
tempest is scions are Astra militarum...

If heretics turn a local PDF they call the guard or marines, and hold out with their typical vehicles.
Actually the Ordo Trmpestus is a seperate organization within the Administratum. They are often attached to the Astra Militarum , but they also act independently.

And I don’t see why the Sororitas would limit their capabilities and become reliant upon the Astartes ot Militatum. The Sisters are the fighting arm of the church and their arsenal already includes heavy artillery. Why have Excorcists when they could just rely upon guard? Because the Sisters, just like Astartes, are supposed to be able to operate independently when needed.

Edited by sitnam, 30 March 2021 - 03:15 PM.

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#57
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I think it makes sense for them to have a tank, the way I think of it the SoB could be very, very well funded compared to other military arms of the Imperium given how rich the church is and will basically have everything

#58
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The other thing that I think we should keep in mind: this is the era Indomitus; it's not business as Pre-Rift usual. Prior to the Rift, we might have stayed close to our churches- but these days, we're riding shotgun with papa smurf while he takes territory back. If there was a time to add a battle tank, a holy walker, a battle chaplain and a lieutenant to the list, surely that time is now.

 

We were caught flat-footed at Sanctuary 101, and so many died at Armageddon that the Fiery Heart changed their name. Never again.

 

This time, the galaxy should fear us.


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#59
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It makes sense for them to have a tank, yes.....but it doesn't make sense to me for them to have a tank

 

Just like it makes sense for SoB to have artillery, but they don't have artillery they have a mobile musical instrument that launches missiles at foes. 

 

I know it's fantasy, and its' 40k, so logic need not apply....but I can't get my head around how they source the battle cannons and munitions for it. The Immolator and Repressor and Exorcist work for me because it's almost Orky in the way they've taken stock Rhinos and then creatively transformed them.  

 

At the end of the day it's not a huge deal and I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over it. It's functional. The meal was cooked properly, I was just hoping for a different dish <shrug>. 


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#60
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The only thing i wanted on a new tank was an inferno cannon. The ability to take the trinity. Inferno on turret, side sponson multimeltas and hull mounted heavy bolter...trinity. Oh well guess a battle cannon will have ta do. It is a pretty tank.
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#61
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It makes sense for them to have a tank, yes.....but it doesn't make sense to me for them to have a tank.

Just like it makes sense for SoB to have artillery, but they don't have artillery they have a mobile musical instrument that launches missiles at foes.

I know it's fantasy, and its' 40k, so logic need not apply....but I can't get my head around how they source the battle cannons and munitions for it. The Immolator and Repressor and Exorcist work for me because it's almost Orky in the way they've taken stock Rhinos and then creatively transformed them.

At the end of the day it's not a huge deal and I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over it. It's functional. The meal was cooked properly, I was just hoping for a different dish <shrug>.

right? Isn't repressor already a civilian vehicle used by the arbites?
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#62
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Adeptus Arbites aren't civilians, they're military police. They're the internal threat answer to the external threat solving Imperial Guard.

 

The Adepta Sororitas are kind of redundant to the Arbites and to the Space Marines but redundancy is part of how the Imperium is structured.

 

The Sororitas are a loop hole to start with, there's no reason why they'd be limited to not having battle tanks.

 

The Castigator seems to be the Sherman Firefly of the Predator family. The original Predator suffered from being undergunned, leading to the Predator Annihilator. Having a laser weapon would be an even bigger insult to the holy trinity of weapons so the Sororitas kept tinkering until they got Leman Russ firepower out of a Rhino chassis.


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#63
sitnam

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I know it's fantasy, and its' 40k, so logic need not apply....but I can't get my head around how they source the battle cannons and munitions for it. 

 

 

The same way they get everything: the Mechanicus and the Administratum. Forge-worlds build most all the advanced equipment in the Imperium, for a variety of factions. If it's not built on a forge-world it's probably built on some factory in a hive world, paticulary simpler components like bullets and tank shells. 

 

 

The Immolator and Repressor and Exorcist work for me because it's almost Orky in the way they've taken stock Rhinos and then creatively transformed them.  

 

The Sisters could have some artisans that do up the vehicles aesthetically, but these Rhino arent garage builds. They are also built by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and I believe the old forge world models were (lore-wise) alternative patterns from specific forge-worlds


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#64
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I think folks have to remember the SoB were not subject to the post heresy reforms to limit combined arms, they only need worry about the Decree Passive and that only cares about boys. 

The Ecclesiarchy is rich, powerful and influential. If they want power armour and bolters on their infantry they get em, if they want starships and bases all over the place they get em, if they want tanks they are damn well gonna get em, in divisional strength if they fancy msn-wink.gif

Never rely on dirty part time heretics if you can call in your own support.


Edited by Noserenda, 30 March 2021 - 11:43 PM.

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#65
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Adeptus Arbites aren't civilians, they're military police. They're the internal threat answer to the external threat solving Imperial Guard.

 

The Adepta Sororitas are kind of redundant to the Arbites and to the Space Marines but redundancy is part of how the Imperium is structured.

 

The Sororitas are a loop hole to start with, there's no reason why they'd be limited to not having battle tanks.

 

The Castigator seems to be the Sherman Firefly of the Predator family. The original Predator suffered from being undergunned, leading to the Predator Annihilator. Having a laser weapon would be an even bigger insult to the holy trinity of weapons so the Sororitas kept tinkering until they got Leman Russ firepower out of a Rhino chassis.

every BL book i've read that's featured them has depicted them as a police force and not military in any way....going based off of the 40k fandom wiki, they're the imperium's version of the FBI...

https://warhammer40k...nd local custom.


Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 31 March 2021 - 01:05 AM.

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#66
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The arbites are basically the federal police to the imperiums country compared to the enforcers state/provincial police of the planets.

They're pretty much the American FBI with all their over-funded toys. Overly capable of dealing with any civil matter, but not actually able to do war.

#67
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I think folks have to remember the SoB were not subject to the post heresy reforms to limit combined arms, they only need worry about the Decree Passive and that only cares about boys. 

The Ecclesiarchy is rich, powerful and influential. If they want power armour and bolters on their infantry they get em, if they want starships and bases all over the place they get em, if they want tanks they are damn well gonna get em, in divisional strength if they fancy msn-wink.gif

Never rely on dirty part time heretics if you can call in your own support.

 

...but that's kind of my point. It's one thing to buy a bunch of equipment, it's another to have an entire infrastructure and supply chain setup to have a constant flow of equipment. 

 

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I don't want to clog up this thread, so I'll stop after this post, but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal, I simply would have gone in a different direction.. 


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#68
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I think folks have to remember the SoB were not subject to the post heresy reforms to limit combined arms, they only need worry about the Decree Passive and that only cares about boys.

The Ecclesiarchy is rich, powerful and influential. If they want power armour and bolters on their infantry they get em, if they want starships and bases all over the place they get em, if they want tanks they are damn well gonna get em, in divisional strength if they fancy msn-wink.gif

Never rely on dirty part time heretics if you can call in your own support.

...but that's kind of my point. It's one thing to buy a bunch of equipment, it's another to have an entire infrastructure and supply chain setup to have a constant flow of equipment.

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I don't want to clog up this thread, so I'll stop after this post, but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal, I simply would have gone in a different direction..
for example when I was job hunting for security I saw ESPN had a requirement for their armorer to be familiar with grenade launchers...why would ESPN even need to be launching smoke or gas is beyond me, but it was a requirement.

Also no PMCs are using dedicated MBTs or attack aircraft. At best they're using civilian helos converted to have a stabilized platform for marksmen or machine gunners, and their armored vehicles are either bearcat style or orky contraptions.

Maybe a rhino with hurricane sponsons, and a melta cannon, and hull mounted HB?

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 31 March 2021 - 06:26 PM.

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#69
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Except the Sororitas arent a PMC they are a full service branch with their own logistics and support setups already established, theyve been expanding the scale of the SoB for years now without scaling up their arsenal and tbh things now make more sense with them having a more rounded military capacity.

Logistics wise they have long since been running their own artillery and assault vehicles, why is it even a stretch to add battle tanks? Especially when, using the STC system all the parts are largely interchangeable across those vehicles so its not even adding much to the logistical burden, only the new weapon systems, ammunition and some of the different turret bits. 

We dont even know if its a new vehicle in universe or whether forgeworlds have been rolling out castigators for centuries off screen so im not sure there is much point in debating that at this point :D 


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#70
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Except the Sororitas arent a PMC they are a full service branch with their own logistics and support setups already established, theyve been expanding the scale of the SoB for years now without scaling up their arsenal and tbh things now make more sense with them having a more rounded military capacity.

Logistics wise they have long since been running their own artillery and assault vehicles, why is it even a stretch to add battle tanks? Especially when, using the STC system all the parts are largely interchangeable across those vehicles so its not even adding much to the logistical burden, only the new weapon systems, ammunition and some of the different turret bits.

We dont even know if its a new vehicle in universe or whether forgeworlds have been rolling out castigators for centuries off screen so im not sure there is much point in debating that at this point :D

theyre a loophole that has been using law enforcement levels of armaments until now, so yeah I'd put them on the level of a PMC. They're not formally sanctioned by the imperial government as a military force, so they operate in a kind of grey zone like a PMC does.
Just like I mentioned about ESPN for some reason needing an armorer that's familiar with grenade launchers.

It's not about how they write lore for it, just like few were happy about astorath and the sanguinary guard and the sanguinor being retconned into the lore.
simply saying "this new thing in game is something that has always been around!" Is just uncreative and lazy writing.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 31 March 2021 - 09:49 PM.

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#71
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The Castigator makes sense.

 

The Sisters of Battle are now a formal, fully vested branch of the Imperium's front line military. As the Ecclesiarchy is the wealthiest branch of the Imperial governing structure money is not an issue; I would think that it took a good deal of effort and development to get a Space Marine's armor to be  scaled down and simultaneously to offer the same level of protection to an unaugmented human, and  even though the armor the Sisters wear is much smaller than a Space Marine's I wouldn't be surprised to discover the cost is the same or close to it.

 

If you are going to have a large fieldable independent tactical combat force it needs to have all the combat arms present and the Castigator is finally filling a role that was missing.

 

Infantry

Close Support Weapons

Anti-Armor / Defensive Armor

Recon

Armor (offensive) [Castigator]

Cavalry

Transportation

Medical

Signal

Command and Control

 

The only major missing piece yet remaining to be filled is aviation.


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#72
sitnam

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theyre a loophole that has been using law enforcement levels of armaments until now, so yeah I'd put them on the level of a PMC. They're not formally sanctioned by the imperial government as a military force, so they operate in a kind of grey zone like a PMC does.

 

 

This is completely wrong

 

1) Power armor, bolters, IFV's, and MLRS systems are not law enforcement gear, even in the 41st millenium.  They have literally been using Astartes level gear since their inception.

 

2) The Adepta Sororitas are absolutely sanctioned by the Imperial Government, both as part of and separate from the Ecclesiarchy. The Abess is one of the highest ranking official in the Imperium, and that position has often been a High Lord of Terra

 

 

 

Also no PMCs are using dedicated MBTs or attack aircraft. At best they're using civilian helos converted to have a stabilized platform for marksmen or machine gunners, and their armored vehicles are either bearcat style or orky contraptions.

No PMC's are using Infantry Fighting Vehicles or MLRS systems either. Nothing about the Sisters armory is orky

 

 

 

...but that's kind of my point. It's one thing to buy a bunch of equipment, it's another to have an entire infrastructure and supply chain setup to have a constant flow of equipment. 

 

Hidden Content

 

 

 

What gives you the impression the Sisters dont have an extensive logistics system behind them? They are the military force of one of the richest Imperial institutions. The organization chart in the codex points out that militant orders have their own fleets of transport ships.


Edited by sitnam, 31 March 2021 - 11:14 PM.

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The Order of His Amethyst Heart
The Dancing Scythes Chapter

#73
Noserenda

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I think the others have slapped down the PMC silliness fairly conclusively but i think the takeaway is, while they have been expanding the involvement of SoB in major events, theyve never been particularly small scale, their mini range was just limited for various reasons that have nothing to do with fluff.


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#74
toaae

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I split a lot of recent posts into a new topic, as it was very good but also very much no longer about the new Castigator model.

In this thread, please keep the focus on the new model, which can include (but is not limited to) speculation as to its role in our army list, if its a harbinger for other models, discussion about the looks, ect.

Thank you.


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WAAAGH!!! Tortoof, a WiP thread (updated: 5/10/21) ||| Order of the Penitent Saint: A Project Thread (updated: 2/13/2021)
[IG 2020]Index Imperialis: Order of the Penitent Saint // IA: Dune Vipers (WiP; updated: 10/17/19, v.1) // [IG 2020]Index Xenos: WAAAGH!!! Tortoof (WiP; updated: 5/10/2020)
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#75
Montford

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With what I have seen from the new units from the Admech, Space Wolves, etc I am now wondering if the Castigator Battle Cannon will have a D3+3 damage profile.

 

If the Exorcist new rules do indeed allow it to fire without LOS then that model and the Castigator would not compete with one another, but rather compliment one another. Particularly if the Castigator will indeed be T8, although that also is speculation on my part.


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-Klingon proverb





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