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Evolution of tactics against new codexes.

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#1
Matthew Purton

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I returned to 40k at the end of 8th edition after not playing since Rogue Trader. I haven't played any 9th due to covid but have trying to keep up with developments (thank the Emperor for YouTube).
One thing that seems to be apparent is that each new codex release seems to be making each faction killier and/or tankier, for instance the increased attacks and the changes to power from pain for the Drukhari.
I was wondering if anybody had any tactical insights or ideas on how to remain relatively competitive as it seems that the last Marine codex actually toned them down a touch from 8th, apparently rebalancing them against the other armies codexes of that time.
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#2
Prot

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I have a slightly different take on it... simply put I just find the power creep is strong in this edition... much more so than 8th.

 

This is just my experience, and I do play my White Scars regularly;

 

- Don't rely on Close Combat. The more you do, the more it's going to let you down on those hardcore 'magic bullet' match ups. (For example... Death Guard. They basically have an inherent ability that just shuts off the super doctrine. The speed of White Scars actually can get you in more trouble against DG. Plus you won't be going first in key match ups against a strong player. )

 

- Space Marines still like castles. I personally despise castle play and it's one of the things that attracted me to White Scars but the truth is the core marine book is build largely off of strong mid range fire support with 'tanky' troops. Unfortunately, as more codexes get released, you will have to rely on this more and more.

 

- Psykers still rock. It's not discussed much but one of the things that make White Scars work, and cool are the psychic powers. A lot of people don't even use them, I find them essential and can be difference makers in lots of those ugly match ups. 

 

- First Born are still really good. I'm someone who's personally just tired of first born. I've painted a zillion armies and I just don't want to paint them anymore, but if I'm being 100% honest, most of the models you would pull out of a box 3-5 years ago are still VERY competitive. A perfect example of this is the Multi Melta ATV vs the Attack Bike. You're far better off with the attack bike for a lot of reasons. Don't forget about the old Vanguard, and firs born bikers.... even a Chappy with jump pack... lots of options there. Perhaps Bladeguard are one of the coolest choices for my preference to field Primaris.

 

- Judiciar: This is a red herring. If you saw this on release it looked good... people moaned, and GW knee jerked this one out of the meta. Little did we know that just about every codex and their dog was going to come out with a way to make sure you can't swing until your dead. Be VERY aware of this. Death Guard have a few ways, and especially new Dark Eldar can make sure your dead (and/or snagged in close combat) before you can do what you hoped to. (IMO the Judiciar needs to be revisited since the 'fight last' market has expanded considerably, and the wording of it is a mess right now.)

 

- In general- the last few codexes, and even stuff like Blood Angels (very strong always on +1 to wound in charge/being charged) and Space Wolves are really good. Dark Angels came out with immensely resilient builds, and the ability to also shut WS down. Dark Eldar are just as fast, good at shooting, and more 'manipulative' than WS in close combat. 

 

For all the above reasons I go back to saying... be diverse in your lists. The days of loading up on Assault Intercessors and advancing blindly into oncoming traffic is long gone. 


Edited by Prot, 06 April 2021 - 06:19 PM.

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#3
SanguinaryGuardsman

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The days of loading up on Assault Intercessors and advancing blindly into oncoming traffic is long gone. 

I was dreaming of those days.  The meta I play in is filled with guard players.  I really wanted to chop them all up!  Prolly gonna have to shoot them instead :(


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#4
SanguinaryGuardsman

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I returned to 40k at the end of 8th edition after not playing since Rogue Trader. I haven't played any 9th due to covid but have trying to keep up with developments (thank the Emperor for YouTube).
One thing that seems to be apparent is that each new codex release seems to be making each faction killier and/or tankier, for instance the increased attacks and the changes to power from pain for the Drukhari.
I was wondering if anybody had any tactical insights or ideas on how to remain relatively competitive as it seems that the last Marine codex actually toned them down a touch from 8th, apparently rebalancing them against the other armies codexes of that time.

I have a few list ideas I want ready before lockdowns end and im vaccinated.  I got a white scar infantry "horde" with lots of obsec, 10 blade guard, 10 terminators, eradicators.  Then I got an obsec spam list I want to run with 40 intercessors, 10 incursors, rites of war biker chap, obsec banner ancient, and bladeguard.  I think those will do better than my earlier bike/transport heavy lists which really really suck vs any flavour of death guard.



#5
Prot

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I have a few list ideas I want ready before lockdowns end and im vaccinated.  I got a white scar infantry "horde" with lots of obsec, 10 blade guard, 10 terminators, eradicators.  Then I got an obsec spam list I want to run with 40 intercessors, 10 incursors, rites of war biker chap, obsec banner ancient, and bladeguard.  I think those will do better than my earlier bike/transport heavy lists which really really suck vs any flavour of death guard.

 

 

 

 

Well that first idea I like a lot. I have been having so much fun with the new Bladeguard kits that I would LOVE an excuse to build another 3 or so! (I've only got 6 though... 3 from the boxset, and 3 of the new release version.) But wow... I love the idea of bullying the opponent back with Bladeguard Termies and Eradicators!

 

Personally I think it will work great vs some opponents and horrible vs others. Honestly I just hate playing against Deathguard right now with my White Scars. Literally it's forced me to cool of of those types of ideas and get used to shooting again.

 

What kind of Termies/build are you thinking?

 

For myself a 'newer' unit I'm thinking about is the Vanguard with claw/shield over Termies for that speed option.


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#6
Matthew Purton

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How do you envisage that meshing with the chapter tactic beyond getting forward faster? I'm asking because the list I played in 8th (pre legends) contained two squads of five company veterans on bikes with thunder hammers and storm shields. Getting forward was nice but I got more use from the fall back and charge. It allowed me to slow parts of the enemies advance and divert attention from other parts of my army. They could weaken the unit(s) that they hit and could either leave them stranded or shimmy through the ranks to hit somewhere else. It wasn't the damage output that was key, it was their survivability. Due to my pitiful pace of painting I didn't manage to get 'codex compliant' until lockdown. Replacing them led to complete list redesign and the only thing that I can think of to fill the gap is a landspeeder tornadoe squadron.

#7
CCE1981

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I wouldn’t use Eradicators, use Multi-Melta attack bikes. For one they work better with White Scars Stratagems and tactics, and are so much better.
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#8
SanguinaryGuardsman

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I have a few list ideas I want ready before lockdowns end and im vaccinated.  I got a white scar infantry "horde" with lots of obsec, 10 blade guard, 10 terminators, eradicators.  Then I got an obsec spam list I want to run with 40 intercessors, 10 incursors, rites of war biker chap, obsec banner ancient, and bladeguard.  I think those will do better than my earlier bike/transport heavy lists which really really suck vs any flavour of death guard.

 

 

 

 

Well that first idea I like a lot. I have been having so much fun with the new Bladeguard kits that I would LOVE an excuse to build another 3 or so! (I've only got 6 though... 3 from the boxset, and 3 of the new release version.) But wow... I love the idea of bullying the opponent back with Bladeguard Termies and Eradicators!

 

Personally I think it will work great vs some opponents and horrible vs others. Honestly I just hate playing against Deathguard right now with my White Scars. Literally it's forced me to cool of of those types of ideas and get used to shooting again.

 

What kind of Termies/build are you thinking?

 

For myself a 'newer' unit I'm thinking about is the Vanguard with claw/shield over Termies for that speed option.

 

Relic terminators with stormbolter/chainfist.  


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#9
SanguinaryGuardsman

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I wouldn’t use Eradicators, use Multi-Melta attack bikes. For one they work better with White Scars Stratagems and tactics, and are so much better.

True but I find them ugly and I also think they are nerf fodder.  Their price seems too low and I'd bet GW will raise their points.  I dont want to end up buying old ugly kits that I believe will get nerfed when I already have eradicators which are unlikely to get nerfed.  

 

You could talk me into the ATVs though!


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#10
Lord Raven 19

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The days of loading up on Assault Intercessors and advancing blindly into oncoming traffic is long gone. 

I was dreaming of those days.  The meta I play in is filled with guard players.  I really wanted to chop them all up!  Prolly gonna have to shoot them instead sad.png

 

If that's imperial guard, not death guard, you'll be fine chopping them. Death guard, yeah, thunder hammer or shooting is best pre T3, once you superdoctrine is on, anything D2 base will do good in combat (or just keep shooting them), Power fists, for example. Bear in mind from T3 onwards, WS thunder hammers are one of the few weapons able to one hit death guard terminators, so you have that.


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#11
CCE1981

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I wouldn’t use Eradicators, use Multi-Melta attack bikes. For one they work better with White Scars Stratagems and tactics, and are so much better.

True but I find them ugly and I also think they are nerf fodder. Their price seems too low and I'd bet GW will raise their points. I dont want to end up buying old ugly kits that I believe will get nerfed when I already have eradicators which are unlikely to get nerfed.

You could talk me into the ATVs though!

I find them pretty derpy looking as well. That’s why I’m looking at converting Custodes Dawn Eagle jet bikes to have a heavy weapon under the front, and slot a couple of bolters or bolt rifles where the hurricane bolters go, slap that on the correct size base and there if is. I’ll use the arms an legs of the Custodes biker and a Primaris body.

#12
Black Blow Fly

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Depending how you play the ATV I think it can be a better choice then the AB.
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#13
Riddlesworth

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I find slot efficiency is a thing. If you're taken melta in the fast attack slot with ATVs or attack bikes, you aren't likely taking more than 1 unit of inceptors, who are still very much worthwhile even with the points hike from january.

 

You can double patrol for 4 fast attack slots, but if you want to be spendy on relics or traits (and white scars have a few excellent ones), you will struggle to have enough CP to create swings in matchups



#14
Xenith

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Depending how you play the ATV I think it can be a better choice then the AB.

 

Got any examples of what you're thinking?

 

The ATB's seem to be better in a bubble, double the melta, etc, the ATV benefits from THP, which is a benefit, but usually only if you have multiple. 



#15
Black Blow Fly

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Well for one thing since the ATV is not core you don’t need to keep it close to characters for aura buffs.


Edited by Black Blow Fly, 10 April 2021 - 01:09 PM.

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#16
Tokugawa

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Don't know why GW don't want to sell their brand new primaris kit. If attack bike nerfed in future faq, players would be more glad to buy ATV.

#17
CCE1981

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Well for one thing since the ATV is not core you don’t need to keep it close to characters for aura buffs.

You can still send Attack Bikes on their own and get the same results.  What is the most optimal is what beats your opponent, if that means that you give up re-rolls to get rid of that one tank or monstrous creature or whatever that means you should do it even if you don't get those re-rolls.



#18
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I’d rather have mine with the ability to operate independently rather than sticking to the castle formation and they have more wounds which is a big deal.


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