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Sisters of Battle datasheet leaks


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#26
Spinsanity

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Those do have extra armour plates in fairness...

And the Exorcist doesn’t? It’s covered in extra layers of armour, not just ornamentation...

Edited by Spinsanity, 07 April 2021 - 12:30 PM.


#27
Banjulhu

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It's also worth noting the newer Exorcist kit is noticeably less armoured than the older one that we used to stick those annoying metal plates to.


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#28
Dark Shepherd

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Dont let the historical rules mechanics get in the way of thematic intent. They are both large mobile rocket launchers based on the same in setting armoured chassis

I guess that’s why Vindicators, Stalkers and Hunters are T8, right?

Vindicators have a giant dozer blade. The AAA rhino variants being T8 is an aberant aberation, guess they need some incentive for people to take them :)
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#29
Banjulhu

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Dont let the historical rules mechanics get in the way of thematic intent. They are both large mobile rocket launchers based on the same in setting armoured chassis

I guess that’s why Vindicators, Stalkers and Hunters are T8, right?

Vindicators have a giant dozer blade. The AAA rhino variants being T8 is an aberant aberation, guess they need some incentive for people to take them smile.png

 

The hunter does have a bit of extra armour over things like the predator model but yeah I think it's T8 is to make it less of a poor option for a game where aircraft are no longer that relevant.


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#30
SkimaskMohawk

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Core stat line changes are to keep it in line with the marine rhino chassis variants

The way the vindicator and predator do?

Theres always been statline differences. The rhino and razorback were front av 11, the pred and vindi were 13. In 8th the rhino and razor had 10 wounds, the pred had 11 and the vindi additionally had t8.

Have the actual equivalents be equivalents.
The equivalents are equivalent across the codices with this change. The whirlwind is S6, T7 W11 in the marine codex so it makes an annoying amount of sense that the exorcist would be brought in line with it.
Its not equivalent to a whirlwind. Extremely high armour, non-blast weapon, higher strength, better ap. Different for decades.

Yeah your right. There are no similarities whatsoever.

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Dont let the historical rules mechanics get in the way of thematic intent. They are both large mobile rocket launchers based on the same in setting armoured chassis

Youre comparing the forgeworld variant to show similarities. Congratulations. Compare the actual model next time.

And speaking of comparisons, we should absolutely use past rules to form our expectation of future rules, because rules dictate theme. It wasn't a light artillery piece like the whirlwind; it's been a direct fire, heavily armoured platform for decades. The rhino chassis meant nothing and still doesn't as you have stat variations across identical looking chassis.
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#31
Spinsanity

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Dont let the historical rules mechanics get in the way of thematic intent. They are both large mobile rocket launchers based on the same in setting armoured chassis

I guess that’s why Vindicators, Stalkers and Hunters are T8, right?


Vindicators have a giant dozer blade. The AAA rhino variants being T8 is an aberant aberation, guess they need some incentive for people to take them smile.png

The Vindicator Laser Destroyer doesn't and still gets the T8, so that's not a valid argument. It does have extra layers of armor, sure, but so does the Exorcist...

#32
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If the Exorcist is changed to indirect fire, the change to T7 won't matter.  Indirect fire would be a huge, huge buff, and not conflict in role with the new Castigator.


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#33
excelite

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I think indirect fire would suite the model better - aesthetics wise
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#34
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Youre comparing the forgeworld variant to show similarities. Congratulations. Compare the actual model next time.

And speaking of comparisons, we should absolutely use past rules to form our expectation of future rules, because rules dictate theme. It wasn't a light artillery piece like the whirlwind; it's been a direct fire, heavily armoured platform for decades. The rhino chassis meant nothing and still doesn't as you have stat variations across identical looking chassis.

 

Nah, I think I'll stick with using the stuff from GW that supports reality as I see it, it just seems self defeating to use the stuff that would support your view.

And I fully disagree that rules dictate theme, its generally always been that theme dictate rules, the concept exists well before the mechanics do.

Also it's worth noting that things change. The past does not have to inform what we have in the present, fluff wise or mechanically. If it did the Ultramarines would still be a 2nd founding chapter with half-eldar librarian running around the galaxy.

In this version of the game it seems the devs want the rhino based tanks to be close to S6 T7 W11 and that is what we get mostly across the board. That makes it better than a Chimera chassis but a little worse than a Leman Russ and much weaker than a Land Raider which scans with the 40k fluff.

All that it needs in the end is an in game cost appropriate to the stats it has been given.


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#35
Ficinus

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Youre comparing the forgeworld variant to show similarities. Congratulations. Compare the actual model next time.

And speaking of comparisons, we should absolutely use past rules to form our expectation of future rules, because rules dictate theme. It wasn't a light artillery piece like the whirlwind; it's been a direct fire, heavily armoured platform for decades. The rhino chassis meant nothing and still doesn't as you have stat variations across identical looking chassis.

Nah, I think I'll stick with using the stuff from GW that supports reality as I see it, it just seems self defeating to use the stuff that would support your view.

And I fully disagree that rules dictate theme, its generally always been that theme dictate rules, the concept exists well before the mechanics do.

Also it's worth noting that things change. The past does not have to inform what we have in the present, fluff wise or mechanically. If it did the Ultramarines would still be a 2nd founding chapter with half-eldar librarian running around the galaxy.

In this version of the game it seems the devs want the rhino based tanks to be close to S6 T7 W11 and that is what we get mostly across the board. That makes it better than a Chimera chassis but a little worse than a Leman Russ and much weaker than a Land Raider which scans with the 40k fluff.

All that it needs in the end is an in game cost appropriate to the stats it has been given.

If you want to use stuff from GW, why are you using a model that was never produced by GW to support your argument? And not only are you using a Forgeworld model, but you're using one that hasn't been produced in at least 6 years as opposed to the original heavily armored pipe organ and the current pipe organ. Like, this is 100% cherry picking to support your view that Exorcist (an anti-armour battle tank) is equivalent to a whirlwind (an anti-horde backline artillery piece). It makes no sense.

Further, to say that the past doesn't have to dictate the future, sure, it doesn't, but it's the only way we have to think about what the future might look like. And when things change, people are going to be curious as to why when some equivalent models don't change in the same way (Vindicator, etc) and others have always been the new way (Predator).

So why is the Exorcist T7 now, if it indeed is. Odds are to make the new tank look better by comparison. There's no logic to the change since the change seems somewhat arbitrary. That said it's really only tradition that can be used in favor of keeping it T8.
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#36
Bonzi

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The sisters reboot is a new and evolving take on a very old army. This new line looks to include new units like the Paragon Warsuit and the Castigator battle tank. Things are going to get shuffled as new models are added. Sisters doesn't have a huge model range, it would be foolish of GW to introduce a new tank and have it directly compete with an existing part of the model line. Look at original penitent engines vs the current new model. The old engines used to be a dreadnought equivalent unit. Now they are much more akin to Killa Kans.

Arguments over what armor a tank should have based on its history (the entire game stats were turned on their head in 8th) isn't terribly relevant to what we are seeing so far for leaks. What we have no is a very narrow window of information devoid of special rules or points changes. Speculating on the meaning of those changes is fun but fighting over differing opinions is pointless.

Edited by Bonzi, 07 April 2021 - 04:02 PM.

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#37
RolandTHTG

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Youre comparing the forgeworld variant to show similarities. Congratulations. Compare the actual model next time.

And speaking of comparisons, we should absolutely use past rules to form our expectation of future rules, because rules dictate theme. It wasn't a light artillery piece like the whirlwind; it's been a direct fire, heavily armoured platform for decades. The rhino chassis meant nothing and still doesn't as you have stat variations across identical looking chassis.

Nah, I think I'll stick with using the stuff from GW that supports reality as I see it, it just seems self defeating to use the stuff that would support your view.

And I fully disagree that rules dictate theme, its generally always been that theme dictate rules, the concept exists well before the mechanics do.

Also it's worth noting that things change. The past does not have to inform what we have in the present, fluff wise or mechanically. If it did the Ultramarines would still be a 2nd founding chapter with half-eldar librarian running around the galaxy.

In this version of the game it seems the devs want the rhino based tanks to be close to S6 T7 W11 and that is what we get mostly across the board. That makes it better than a Chimera chassis but a little worse than a Leman Russ and much weaker than a Land Raider which scans with the 40k fluff.

All that it needs in the end is an in game cost appropriate to the stats it has been given.

If you want to use stuff from GW, why are you using a model that was never produced by GW to support your argument? And not only are you using a Forgeworld model, but you're using one that hasn't been produced in at least 6 years as opposed to the original heavily armored pipe organ and the current pipe organ. Like, this is 100% cherry picking to support your view that Exorcist (an anti-armour battle tank) is equivalent to a whirlwind (an anti-horde backline artillery piece). It makes no sense.

Further, to say that the past doesn't have to dictate the future, sure, it doesn't, but it's the only way we have to think about what the future might look like. And when things change, people are going to be curious as to why when some equivalent models don't change in the same way (Vindicator, etc) and others have always been the new way (Predator).

So why is the Exorcist T7 now, if it indeed is. Odds are to make the new tank look better by comparison. There's no logic to the change since the change seems somewhat arbitrary. That said it's really only tradition that can be used in favor of keeping it T8.

 

 

Using the forgeworld one is maybe cherry-picking, but the Exorcist has always been described as an artillery piece. It may have been a front-line one, due as much in fluff to its role as a mobile shrine as anything else, but it has always been artillery. The 8e codex even added anti-horde rockets to complement the anti-armor ones it had before. 


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#38
SkimaskMohawk

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Youre comparing the forgeworld variant to show similarities. Congratulations. Compare the actual model next time.

And speaking of comparisons, we should absolutely use past rules to form our expectation of future rules, because rules dictate theme. It wasn't a light artillery piece like the whirlwind; it's been a direct fire, heavily armoured platform for decades. The rhino chassis meant nothing and still doesn't as you have stat variations across identical looking chassis.

Nah, I think I'll stick with using the stuff from GW that supports reality as I see it, it just seems self defeating to use the stuff that would support your view.

And I fully disagree that rules dictate theme, its generally always been that theme dictate rules, the concept exists well before the mechanics do.

Also it's worth noting that things change. The past does not have to inform what we have in the present, fluff wise or mechanically. If it did the Ultramarines would still be a 2nd founding chapter with half-eldar librarian running around the galaxy.

In this version of the game it seems the devs want the rhino based tanks to be close to S6 T7 W11 and that is what we get mostly across the board. That makes it better than a Chimera chassis but a little worse than a Leman Russ and much weaker than a Land Raider which scans with the 40k fluff.

All that it needs in the end is an in game cost appropriate to the stats it has been given.
If you want to use stuff from GW, why are you using a model that was never produced by GW to support your argument? And not only are you using a Forgeworld model, but you're using one that hasn't been produced in at least 6 years as opposed to the original heavily armored pipe organ and the current pipe organ. Like, this is 100% cherry picking to support your view that Exorcist (an anti-armour battle tank) is equivalent to a whirlwind (an anti-horde backline artillery piece). It makes no sense.

Further, to say that the past doesn't have to dictate the future, sure, it doesn't, but it's the only way we have to think about what the future might look like. And when things change, people are going to be curious as to why when some equivalent models don't change in the same way (Vindicator, etc) and others have always been the new way (Predator).

So why is the Exorcist T7 now, if it indeed is. Odds are to make the new tank look better by comparison. There's no logic to the change since the change seems somewhat arbitrary. That said it's really only tradition that can be used in favor of keeping it T8.

Using the forgeworld one is maybe cherry-picking, but the Exorcist has always been described as an artillery piece. It may have been a front-line one, due as much in fluff to its role as a mobile shrine as anything else, but it has always been artillery. The 8e codex even added anti-horde rockets to complement the anti-armor ones it had before.

But it's always direct fired, meaning it's not artillery. Having a good range and high explosive rounds are very much in the realm of being a battle tank; artillery needs to be able to shoot without vision. Any fluff calling it artillery has never been accurate as a result of the tank being a heavily armoured direct fire weapon platform. A great example of "theme" being completely at odds with rules.
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#39
RolandTHTG

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Using the forgeworld one is maybe cherry-picking, but the Exorcist has always been described as an artillery piece. It may have been a front-line one, due as much in fluff to its role as a mobile shrine as anything else, but it has always been artillery. The 8e codex even added anti-horde rockets to complement the anti-armor ones it had before.

But it's always direct fired, meaning it's not artillery. Having a good range and high explosive rounds are very much in the realm of being a battle tank; artillery needs to be able to shoot without vision. Any fluff calling it artillery has never been accurate as a result of the tank being a heavily armoured direct fire weapon platform. A great example of "theme" being completely at odds with rules.

 

 

But both the model and the fluff have always described parabolic paths of the rockets, which stretches the definition of "direct fire". In addition, In function within the rules, it has always resembled a WW2 tank destroyer or assault gun, which were classified as forms of self-propelled artillery, the same as the space marine vindicator. 


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#40
Lagrath

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It will be interesting to see what happens with Sisters since they are currently the strongest army in the game but who knows what the mindset was when the codex was written. 



#41
Bryan Blaire

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Considering the definition of artillery has changed over the years, it’s probably pretty fruitless to argue whether the definition means anything at all in this context - it doesn’t necessarily mean “indirect fire” only, but is a more modern emphasis.

 

The first definition Merriam-Webster has for the word artillery is “weapons (such as bows, slings, and catapults) for discharging missiles”, so a couple of pretty direct fire weapons there.  It goes on to use “ large bore mounted firearms (such as guns, howitzers, and rockets): Ordnance” and then “especially: such ordnance that is capable of long range indirect fire at a target too distant to be seen” - so even there, while there’s an emphasis, it’s not a requirement as a definition.  A direct fire tank would still be capable of being defined as artillery per the English definition of the word, even if the military understanding of the term is in line with the emphasized “especially” portion of the term.

 

It very much may be that they are simply wanting a rules reason to distinguish the new tank from the Exorcist and it has nothing to do with the vehicle’s fire method or what it has previously been considered/previous rules.


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#42
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I would say sisters are prolly the easiest army but not the top faction.
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#43
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If Exorcists are changed into an artillery role, and the Castigators come out as T8, then I am seeing a highly mobile and highly hard hitting force that Sisters could field. Oh if only, if only Repressors would then return.... cool.pngcool.pngcool.pngcool.pngcool.pngcool.pngcool.png


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#44
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Repressors would be CRAZY broken with MM Rets. Even Melta Doms.



#45
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It will be interesting to see what happens with Sisters since they are currently the strongest army in the game but who knows what the mindset was when the codex was written.


I imagine they'll be strong no matter what.
They are powerful thanks to a combination of their unit cost and offensive output, as well as the function of their available units. I don't see these things changing much.

It's actually great to have the Sisters be such a powerful army, and they should be very popular on top thanks to their incredible model range.

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#46
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Let's keep it on track, guys, more about the model and rules, less about the nature of artillery. 


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#47
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In that case, if this is a real data sheet, it is totally bonkers that the Exorcist's primary weapon has gone from AP-4 in the Index and Beta Codex to AP-3 in the actual codex to now AP-2. That is a huge nerf. It also means that where once the Exorcist fired special anti-armor missiles (AP1 in the old system, AP-4 in 8th), now it fires krak missiles.
In that case, if this is a real data sheet, it is totally bonkers that the Exorcist's primary weapon has gone from AP-4 in the Index and Beta Codex to AP-3 in the actual codex to now AP-2. That is a huge nerf. It also means that where once the Exorcist fired special anti-armor missiles (AP1 in the old system, AP-4 in 8th), now it fires krak missiles.
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#48
Bonzi

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In that case, if this is a real data sheet, it is totally bonkers that the Exorcist's primary weapon has gone from AP-4 in the Index and Beta Codex to AP-3 in the actual codex to now AP-2. That is a huge nerf. It also means that where once the Exorcist fired special anti-armor missiles (AP1 in the old system, AP-4 in 8th), now it fires krak missiles.
In that case, if this is a real data sheet, it is totally bonkers that the Exorcist's primary weapon has gone from AP-4 in the Index and Beta Codex to AP-3 in the actual codex to now AP-2. That is a huge nerf. It also means that where once the Exorcist fired special anti-armor missiles (AP1 in the old system, AP-4 in 8th), now it fires krak missiles.


It's hard right now to declare something like a change in AP a flat nerf. Without the specials rules or synergies that accompany the unit in the actual book. If the platform goes to indirect fire and or ignores cover that could be a net gain. Also possible is that sisters are already strong and this may be one of the changes GW wants to make to balance out sisters abilities to use miracle dice to determine shots/hits/wounds with such a powerful weapon profile. The final cynical possibility is that GW is putting their finger on the scale to drive sales of the new Castigator. GW sometimes flubs new models but other times they quite clearly make changes to make the new hotness get bought. It's likely a combination of a lot of factors we don't have our hands on yet.

One of the big things that would point us in the right direction is the statline and weapons profile of the Castigator. Knowing where that vehicle sits could tell us a lot more about the impact of Exorcist changes.
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#49
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In terms of the balance correction and sale redirection arguments, the problem is that the exorcist isn't even the premiere anti tank unit for SoB; the retributors are. And as they all share the same foc slot, you never see the exorcist taken as a result. The new tank is going to compete with the retributors or mortifiers rather than the exorcist.

#50
MARK0SIAN

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9th edition as a whole seems to want to push infantry over vehicles anyway so it could be the changes to the exorcist are just a symptom of that. Certainly for marines and sisters the infantry (and bikes) do a better job in any role than pretty much any tank they have access to. Add in the fact that vehicles without an invulnerable are very easy to kill and 9th edition is simply not a kind edition for vehicles. This seems like a design intent so my money is on any changes stemming from that more than anything else.

Edited by MARK0SIAN, 08 April 2021 - 05:57 PM.

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