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An Even Newer Celestian


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#26
march10k

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I would also point out that they won't duplicate the statlines or effects of other armies- they will be a uniquely sisters twist on CC infantry, but I think War Angel beat me to the punch:

 

 


Predator ripoff? That thing may have the same body, but so does every other sisters tank or APC, and every old Marine tank bar the land raiders. Also, it’s a main battle tank, while the predator is a light tank.

The paragon warsuits may be similar to terminators, but they won’t be terminators, they won’t have the same stat line, and they won’t be supported by the same ability’s and faction traits. They’re may be some similarities but it won’t be the same. Terminators can’t guarantee a charge with Miracle dice.

Look at Bullgryns, they’re the guards verson of terminators, yet still completely different. Every faction is going to have units that have similarities, but still function differently, and at different levels of power. Or should Tau not have battle suits because space marines had dreads first?

 

 

 

 

Even without having *quite* the same statline, they still fulfill the same role and do it to similar effect.  I see the outcome being the same and don't want to quibble over an inch of movement or a pip of leadership. 

 

War Angel's comparison between dreads and battlesuits (do you mean the ripride?  The XV-8?  "battle suits" is too broad to be useful) is a red herring.  It's quite telling that he completely ignores my point about tau melee to substitute this banal comparison.

 

I'm not saying no army can have any unit that is broadly similar to another army's unit.  Everyone's gonna have basic riflemen, it would be absurd to oppose that.  What I'm saying is that armies other than marines have always had aspects in which they beat the pants off of nilla-rarines, offset by gaps in their capabilities.  The point is to try to leverage your strengths while the ultramarines player tries to exploit your weaknesses.  Are they really going to fill your valleys without leveling your peaks?  When you get a proper battle tank, for example, you can expect the units or abilities that you formerly used to offset that gap in your capabilities to be nerfed.  We're not there yet, but this goes in the direction of all armies playing the same way because they all can play any style.  

 

 

 

Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

 

 

Retribs absoluely ARE Devastators.  Unique abilities to offset not having long range antitank options, but compare a heavy bolter dev squad to a heavy bolter retrib squad.  Same weapons in the same count and the same BS.  

 

Repentia are a perfect example of the uniqueness that I love in this game that's slowly being erased.  Nothing about them is that similar to anything else.  They have no speed, no armor, limited delivery mechanisms, and devastating impact if you shoot the moon and they get to charge.  Just looking at the comparison to assault marines, the marines are fast, have power armor, and craptastic melee weapons.  Literally everything about the repentia is the polar opposite.  The beauty, the challenge of this game is to take such a flawed unit with such amazing potential, and make it work.  Repentia SHOULDN'T survive long enough to swing those eviscerators...but if you can pull it off, it's glorious.  I'm working on a second max sized squad of them.


Edited by march10k, 15 April 2021 - 02:05 AM.

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#27
War Angel

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Hopefully all these new units don’t go into the elites section

Edit: Because sisters are loaded like crazy there. Is there any other faction with only one troop choice?

Edited by War Angel, 15 April 2021 - 05:00 AM.


#28
sitnam

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Hopefully all these new units don’t go into the elites section

Edit: Because sisters are loaded like crazy there. Is there any other faction with only one troop choice?

Harlequins and (discounting Forgeworld stuff) Custodes only have one troop.

My only worry with giving sisters another troop is what can they actually give us. I'm not a particular fan of an Assault Intercessors style unit, where's it's the base line troops with a different load out. So they could give us carapace/flak armored intitates or frateris militia, but my worry there is these cheaper versions will supplant BSS squads, kind of how scouts and cultists did for Astartes at certain times.

That said, it would be so easy to give us frateris militia. GW could just link the Necromunda and militarum ranges and we could use that. Hell, cut up some GSC Neophytes for kitbashing and you got some zealous miners

Edited by sitnam, 15 April 2021 - 05:33 AM.

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#29
ValourousHeart

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Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

 

 

Retribs absoluely ARE Devastators.  Unique abilities to offset not having long range antitank options, but compare a heavy bolter dev squad to a heavy bolter retrib squad.  Same weapons in the same count and the same BS.  

 

By that logic then Tau Firewarriors are exactly the same thing as Primaris Inceptors because they both have S5 D1 guns.  

 

As I was saying when you make reductive comparisons you more often than not make flawed comparisons that completely fall apart with any honest appraisal.

 

You could make an argument that a 5 battle sister squad in an Immolator is exactly the same as any of the 5 man SM Troop choices in a Razorback or Impulsor.  However once you try to use the sisters in the exact same manner you would use the SM, you will find out just how big of a difference -1T and -1W really makes.

 

Back to Retributors and Devastators, those units are so much more than just the fact that they can both take heavy bolters.

 

Devastators are a static unit who are limited to a long range damage dealer role.  Since they suffer movement penalties, their MM option is generally viewed as a poor choice compared to their other options.  And outside of Deathwatch and Blood Angels they can't take Heavy Flamers at all.  So they take Lascanons or Missile Launcher when dealing with armour and heavy bolters or plasma cannons when dealing with infantry, but because the HS section is full of good options for SM players will often only field 1 Devastator squad with a mixed loadout and split fire with them.  But since the release of Helblasters and now Eradicators, fewer and fewer lists are taking the classic Devastator squad in favor of one of the newer options.

 

Retributors do not suffer the movement penalty.  So right off the bat they are a more mobile unit that can move to find targets and doesn't necessarily need to only hold a back field objective. So now the option of them taking a mid-field objective is a real possibility, which pushes them closer to scouts than devastators, especially when you consider the scout upgrade options instead of just fielding them naked like everyone did in 8th.

 

The Retributor unit doesn't have access to most of the weapon choices that the Devastator squad has.  Which means that if this unit wants to deal with armor it has to take multi-meltas and it has to cross the board with them, which is never how you would use Devastators because you would just take Attack Bikes instead if that is what you planned to do with them.

 

And vs infantry because you are limited to Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers means that you don't have as effective tools to deal with squads of terminators and other 2+ armour and an invul save units.  This means rarely will you see a Retributor squad decked out to split fire.

 

And finally in the past the only "sister" units in HS were Retributors and Exorcist, and while that might change with our next dex, it is more likely that Retributors will remain a fan favorite.


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#30
ThePenitentOne

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My only worry with giving sisters another troop is what can they actually give us. I'm not a particular fan of an Assault Intercessors style unit, where's it's the base line troops with a different load out. So they could give us carapace/flak armored intitates or frateris militia, but my worry there is these cheaper versions will supplant BSS squads, kind of how scouts and cultists did for Astartes at certain times.

That said, it would be so easy to give us frateris militia. GW could just link the Necromunda and militarum ranges and we could use that. Hell, cut up some GSC Neophytes for kitbashing and you got some zealous miners

 

 

Cawdor as the basic Frateris Militia with Redemption as their Sergeants would look awesome.

 

I also really want SoB Novitiates- they too are listed in the 8th dexes organizational overview.



#31
RandyB

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My only worry with giving sisters another troop is what can they actually give us. I'm not a particular fan of an Assault Intercessors style unit, where's it's the base line troops with a different load out. So they could give us carapace/flak armored intitates or frateris militia, but my worry there is these cheaper versions will supplant BSS squads, kind of how scouts and cultists did for Astartes at certain times.

That said, it would be so easy to give us frateris militia. GW could just link the Necromunda and militarum ranges and we could use that. Hell, cut up some GSC Neophytes for kitbashing and you got some zealous miners


Cawdor as the basic Frateris Militia with Redemption as their Sergeants would look awesome.

I also really want SoB Novitiates- they too are listed in the 8th dexes organizational overview.

Are the SoB Novitiates analogous to Astartes Scouts?

Put the toys on the table and throw the dice. Everything else is just noise.

 

...Unless you're just in this for the modeling. In which case, show your work. Yours likely looks better than mine, anyway.


#32
ThePenitentOne

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It doesn't say much about them, but I would assume so. I will comb the fluff pages to see if they're mentioned there, but I don't think they are- it's just listed under Mission Assets in the organizational overview pages.



#33
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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
There has to be something in the way of a secondary troop choice that isn't just Sister Scouts. Terrible AND lazy.
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#34
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Noviates as far as I remember (or some over variation of it) is just the term used in some of the 40k novels and the Dark Heresy books for Sisters fresh from Schola so it could be as simple as they are just junior sisters that have yet to be assigned a battlefield unit rather than a particular type of unit in the army.



#35
Azekai

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Noviates as far as I remember (or some over variation of it) is just the term used in some of the 40k novels and the Dark Heresy books for Sisters fresh from Schola so it could be as simple as they are just junior sisters that have yet to be assigned a battlefield unit rather than a particular type of unit in the army.

I am liking them being -1 BS cheaper sisters, basically conscripts for the Sororitas. Give them a limit of 1 per actual sister squad, maybe limit their gear a bit too.


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#36
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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
There has to be something in the way of a secondary troop choice that isn't just Sister Scouts. Terrible AND lazy.

maybe some sort of troop unit that is ok in melee, bad in shooting, but has a good scout move or stratagem for setting up in the midboard.

Maybe a Flamer unit with a scout move?
5 sisters-10
4-9x flamers
1x BP&chainsword

Sarge can replace sword with a weapon from melee list, sarge can replace BP with a weapon from the melee list, or a weapon from the pistol list

For every 5 sisters in the unit 1 can replace their Flamer with a heavy Flamer.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 16 April 2021 - 09:45 PM.

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#37
dracpanzer

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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
There has to be something in the way of a secondary troop choice that isn't just Sister Scouts. Terrible AND lazy.

maybe some sort of troop unit that is ok in melee, bad in shooting, but has a good scout move or stratagem for setting up in the midboard.
Maybe a Flamer unit with a scout move?
5 sisters-10
4-9x flamers
1x BP&chainsword
Sarge can replace sword with a weapon from melee list, sarge can replace BP with a weapon from the melee list, or a weapon from the pistol list
For every 5 sisters in the unit 1 can replace their Flamer with a heavy Flamer.

Seems a lot like Dominions. Though they certainly could use a little love for the flamer variety.
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#38
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
There has to be something in the way of a secondary troop choice that isn't just Sister Scouts. Terrible AND lazy.

maybe some sort of troop unit that is ok in melee, bad in shooting, but has a good scout move or stratagem for setting up in the midboard.
Maybe a Flamer unit with a scout move?
5 sisters-10
4-9x flamers
1x BP&chainsword
Sarge can replace sword with a weapon from melee list, sarge can replace BP with a weapon from the melee list, or a weapon from the pistol list
For every 5 sisters in the unit 1 can replace their Flamer with a heavy Flamer.
Seems a lot like Dominions. Though they certainly could use a little love for the flamer variety.
well still learning about SoBs. Well damn lol
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#39
Jorin Helm-splitter

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As someone who is considering getting a sisters force, I don't really think a second troop makes a lot of sense. The base squad is already so flexible, that I think it would be tough to find a niche for them. They could try a CC focused unit but with 3 strength that would be hard to pull off.

#40
march10k

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Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

 

 

Retribs absoluely ARE Devastators.  Unique abilities to offset not having long range antitank options, but compare a heavy bolter dev squad to a heavy bolter retrib squad.  Same weapons in the same count and the same BS.  

 

By that logic then Tau Firewarriors are exactly the same thing as Primaris Inceptors because they both have S5 D1 guns.  

 

 

 

 

What is it with you and the reductio ad absurdem?  The only more ridiculous thing you could have said is that fire warriors are the same thing as guardsmen because they're both on 25mm bases.  

 

Retribs and Devs are both medium infantry squads toting four heavy weapons.  You'd be hard pressed to find two units from different armies that are more alike.  


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#41
march10k

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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
 

 

They don't. Besides, GW fails miserably almost every time it tries to have multiple troops options, or even weapons options for troops, that are all viable.  Occasionally, they do allright.  Two of the four possible troop statline and weapons combos for Necrons are good, although there's still a "no brainer" mentality that if you aren't rolling out 3x20 warriors with the shorter ranged gun, you're handicapping yourself.  My point is that if there were a unit that competed with battle sisters in the troops slot, it would either be ignored or you wouldn't see battle sisters in a competitive sisters of battle army list.  The former would be a waste, the latter a tragedy.  So, no, we don't need another troops choice.  If we need any new units, we need fast attack that are a, battle sisters, and b, um, fast.  I don't know if sisters on bikes are the answer.  Maybe it's four wheelers?  But something speedy and shooty manned by a single nun.  


Edited by march10k, 18 April 2021 - 07:28 PM.

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#42
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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.


They don't. Besides, GW fails miserably almost every time it tries to have multiple troops options, or even weapons options for troops, that are all viable. Occasionally, they do allright. Two of the four possible troop statline and weapons combos for Necrons are good, although there's still a "no brainer" mentality that if you aren't rolling out 3x20 warriors with the shorter ranged gun, you're handicapping yourself. My point is that if there were a unit that competed with battle sisters in the troops slot, it would either be ignored or you wouldn't see battle sisters in a competitive sisters of battle army list. The former would be a waste, the latter a tragedy. So, no, we don't need another troops choice. If we need any new units, we need fast attack that are a, battle sisters, and b, um, fast. I don't know if sisters on bikes are the answer. Maybe it's four wheelers? But something speedy and shooty manned by a single nun.
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#43
ValourousHeart

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Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

 

 

Retribs absoluely ARE Devastators.  Unique abilities to offset not having long range antitank options, but compare a heavy bolter dev squad to a heavy bolter retrib squad.  Same weapons in the same count and the same BS.  

 

By that logic then Tau Firewarriors are exactly the same thing as Primaris Inceptors because they both have S5 D1 guns.  

 

What is it with you and the reductio ad absurdem?  The only more ridiculous thing you could have said is that fire warriors are the same thing as guardsmen because they're both on 25mm bases.  

 

Retribs and Devs are both medium infantry squads toting four heavy weapons.  You'd be hard pressed to find two units from different armies that are more alike.  

 

Reductio ad absurdum is equally appropriate for your argument about both having 4 heavy weapons, while ignoring the fact that the heavy weapon list is different for the 2 squads.

 

My point is that how a unit is used has some importance in this conversation.



#44
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And how it’s stated has an impact on how it’s used. But anything that you disagree with is insulted because you don’t like it, not a great way to defend your idea.

#45
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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
 

 

They don't. Besides, GW fails miserably almost every time it tries to have multiple troops options, or even weapons options for troops, that are all viable.  Occasionally, they do allright.  Two of the four possible troop statline and weapons combos for Necrons are good, although there's still a "no brainer" mentality that if you aren't rolling out 3x20 warriors with the shorter ranged gun, you're handicapping yourself.  My point is that if there were a unit that competed with battle sisters in the troops slot, it would either be ignored or you wouldn't see battle sisters in a competitive sisters of battle army list.  The former would be a waste, the latter a tragedy.  So, no, we don't need another troops choice.  If we need any new units, we need fast attack that are a, battle sisters, and b, um, fast.  I don't know if sisters on bikes are the answer.  Maybe it's four wheelers?  But something speedy and shooty manned by a single nun.  

 

What about cavalry? Holy knights themed after the crusades armed with spears and stuff could work? And guard players could get new rough riders out of it too!


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#46
march10k

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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.
 

 

They don't. Besides, GW fails miserably almost every time it tries to have multiple troops options, or even weapons options for troops, that are all viable.  Occasionally, they do allright.  Two of the four possible troop statline and weapons combos for Necrons are good, although there's still a "no brainer" mentality that if you aren't rolling out 3x20 warriors with the shorter ranged gun, you're handicapping yourself.  My point is that if there were a unit that competed with battle sisters in the troops slot, it would either be ignored or you wouldn't see battle sisters in a competitive sisters of battle army list.  The former would be a waste, the latter a tragedy.  So, no, we don't need another troops choice.  If we need any new units, we need fast attack that are a, battle sisters, and b, um, fast.  I don't know if sisters on bikes are the answer.  Maybe it's four wheelers?  But something speedy and shooty manned by a single nun.  

 

What about cavalry? Holy knights themed after the crusades armed with spears and stuff could work? And guard players could get new rough riders out of it too!

 

 

Like, horse cavalry?  A bit too anachronistic for my tastes, and not really in line with the SoB flavor.  Besides, they're nuns (female), not knights (male).  And it would take quite the horse to carry a power armored knight.  Definitely no lances, please!  Maybe if it were some xenos beast a little bulkier than a terran horse, and the riders didn't have any un-sisterly weapons, it might pass the sniff test.  I could see two versions, pistol and sword for one, and bolter/special weapon for the other.  One in three for the special weapons?  

 

As for rough riders...I did mine on those old ogre kingdoms hunting cats.  Really only viable with rules that give them high movement rather than extra charge range, as a melta delivery platform, and you never know what the statline and rules are going to be from one edition to the next.  They were utterly useless (without silly lances) in the edition when I built them, with 6" move and 12" charge, or some such nonsense.  But we're talking about metal hunting cats, that must have been 3-4 editions ago...


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#47
march10k

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Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

 

 

Retribs absoluely ARE Devastators.  Unique abilities to offset not having long range antitank options, but compare a heavy bolter dev squad to a heavy bolter retrib squad.  Same weapons in the same count and the same BS.  

 

By that logic then Tau Firewarriors are exactly the same thing as Primaris Inceptors because they both have S5 D1 guns.  

 

What is it with you and the reductio ad absurdem?  The only more ridiculous thing you could have said is that fire warriors are the same thing as guardsmen because they're both on 25mm bases.  

 

Retribs and Devs are both medium infantry squads toting four heavy weapons.  You'd be hard pressed to find two units from different armies that are more alike.  

 

Reductio ad absurdum is equally appropriate for your argument about both having 4 heavy weapons, while ignoring the fact that the heavy weapon list is different for the 2 squads.

 

My point is that how a unit is used has some importance in this conversation.

 

 

Equally appropriate?  Don't kid yourself.  2/3 of the Retrib heavy weapons, and the only two that actually get used, are available to and used by Devs.  The fact that long range anti-tank options are available to and popular with Devs doesn't change that.  It's still one of the closest comparisons that can be made across armies.

 

How they are used?  100% agree.  Gunline/strongpoint in both cases.  Unless they're rocking multimeltas, in which case they have to try to close with a worthy target without getting gunned down, probably via some sort of transport.  In both cases.


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#48
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Not saying that Sisters need a second troop choice, but.


They don't. Besides, GW fails miserably almost every time it tries to have multiple troops options, or even weapons options for troops, that are all viable. Occasionally, they do allright. Two of the four possible troop statline and weapons combos for Necrons are good, although there's still a "no brainer" mentality that if you aren't rolling out 3x20 warriors with the shorter ranged gun, you're handicapping yourself. My point is that if there were a unit that competed with battle sisters in the troops slot, it would either be ignored or you wouldn't see battle sisters in a competitive sisters of battle army list. The former would be a waste, the latter a tragedy. So, no, we don't need another troops choice. If we need any new units, we need fast attack that are a, battle sisters, and b, um, fast. I don't know if sisters on bikes are the answer. Maybe it's four wheelers? But something speedy and shooty manned by a single nun.
What about cavalry? Holy knights themed after the crusades armed with spears and stuff could work? And guard players could get new rough riders out of it too!

Like, horse cavalry? A bit too anachronistic for my tastes, and not really in line with the SoB flavor. Besides, they're nuns (female), not knights (male). And it would take quite the horse to carry a power armored knight. Definitely no lances, please! Maybe if it were some xenos beast a little bulkier than a terran horse, and the riders didn't have any un-sisterly weapons, it might pass the sniff test. I could see two versions, pistol and sword for one, and bolter/special weapon for the other. One in three for the special weapons?

As for rough riders...I did mine on those old ogre kingdoms hunting cats. Really only viable with rules that give them high movement rather than extra charge range, as a melta delivery platform, and you never know what the statline and rules are going to be from one edition to the next. They were utterly useless (without silly lances) in the edition when I built them, with 6" move and 12" charge, or some such nonsense. But we're talking about metal hunting cats, that must have been 3-4 editions ago...
when exactly did nuns fight historically that you're ok with that, but not ok with those fighting nuns being portrayed as female Knights (a trope that's not particularly uncommon in fantasy settings...)
The answer is on the floor -Shihan John Roseberry

#49
jarms48

jarms48

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Hopefully all these new units don’t go into the elites section

Edit: Because sisters are loaded like crazy there. Is there any other faction with only one troop choice?

 

Pure Scions. Scions don't even get fast attack or heavy support choices. So you're forever stuck with patrols, battalions and maybe vanguards but no-one really takes those. 


Edited by jarms48, 20 April 2021 - 05:01 AM.


#50
Bonzi

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Hopefully all these new units don’t go into the elites section

Edit: Because sisters are loaded like crazy there. Is there any other faction with only one troop choice?


Pure Scions. Scions don't even get fast attack or heavy support choices. So you're forever stuck with patrols, battalions and maybe vanguards but no-one really takes those.

I could see bolt pistol and chainsword sisters troops unit ala Assault Intercessors. You even see such a unit in the Indomintus teaser video. At the end of the video a number of chainsword and bolt pistol sisters charge into the fight next to the space marines.

Xeno

Necrons

 

Imperium

Astra/Tempestus Militarum - Vostroyans

Blood Angels - Hands of Sacrifice

 

Traitor Legions

Emperors Children - Making Noise Marines Scream





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