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#276
SkimaskMohawk

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I even thought that the sacresants were much more durable. As single wound models they discourage quality shooting like meltas/dark lances/lascannons and their 2+/4++ just reinforce that they're poor targets for a lot of staple weapons. Boosting them with a -1 to wound in melee and having them take incubi and a master archon on the chin and not lose the unit entirely (and kill the incubi with 3 halberdiers) felt great.

#277
Fulkes

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I even thought that the sacresants were much more durable. As single wound models they discourage quality shooting like meltas/dark lances/lascannons and their 2+/4++ just reinforce that they're poor targets for a lot of staple weapons. Boosting them with a -1 to wound in melee and having them take incubi and a master archon on the chin and not lose the unit entirely (and kill the incubi with 3 halberdiers) felt great.

Yeah, I've felt they're a strong choice too, and probably one of the units I'd give the "pick 2 rites" relic on since you can buff them for melee even if your army is more shooting focused (like if you're playing Argent Shroud).


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#278
SkimaskMohawk

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I even thought that the sacresants were much more durable. As single wound models they discourage quality shooting like meltas/dark lances/lascannons and their 2+/4++ just reinforce that they're poor targets for a lot of staple weapons. Boosting them with a -1 to wound in melee and having them take incubi and a master archon on the chin and not lose the unit entirely (and kill the incubi with 3 halberdiers) felt great.

Yeah, I've felt they're a strong choice too, and probably one of the units I'd give the "pick 2 rites" relic on since you can buff them for melee even if your army is more shooting focused (like if you're playing Argent Shroud).

I'll have to see. It might not be strictly necessary to have passion if you can keep war hymns up and can afford a patrol of bloody rose.

#279
Montford

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Speaking of sacresants I decided to go with the halberds. Most of what they will probably be fighting won't have an invulnerable save and I think I want top go with a better chance of getting in 1 wound than a lower chance of getting in 2 wounds, although the math on it may show it to be a wash *shrug*. They will require more storage space though blush.png


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#280
Fulkes

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I even thought that the sacresants were much more durable. As single wound models they discourage quality shooting like meltas/dark lances/lascannons and their 2+/4++ just reinforce that they're poor targets for a lot of staple weapons. Boosting them with a -1 to wound in melee and having them take incubi and a master archon on the chin and not lose the unit entirely (and kill the incubi with 3 halberdiers) felt great.

Yeah, I've felt they're a strong choice too, and probably one of the units I'd give the "pick 2 rites" relic on since you can buff them for melee even if your army is more shooting focused (like if you're playing Argent Shroud).

I'll have to see. It might not be strictly necessary to have passion if you can keep war hymns up and can afford a patrol of bloody rose.

 

Well that Bloody Rose patrol isn't going to have access to it's order relic. Mixing convictions has more restrictions now.


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#281
taikishi

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I see no issues preventing the Bloody Rose detachment from having its relic:

 

* If you select one of the Sanctified characters or the Bloody Rose character as your warlord, you can choose Benefice as your free relic.

* If your warlord is from another Order, Open the Reliquaries simply requires your Warlord to have the Adeptus Ministorum keyword meaning you can still get the order-specific Relics for 1CP

* If you want to give a Superior a relic, A Sacred Burden doesn't care if your Warlord is Roboute Gilliman -- all it looks for is if you're giving the relic to a Superior and if it's one of the relics listed.

 

The only restrictions I see are:

-- You can no longer have two orders in a detachment for your army to be Battleforged, stopping EC warlords in a patrol of Bloody Rose for example.

-- The Conviction of Faith minor conviction requires every unit in your army to have this conviction, even if their second conviction is something else entirely.

-- Your warlord be Sanctified, Bloody Rose, or you pay 1CP


Edited by taikishi, 12 June 2021 - 01:57 PM.


#282
SkimaskMohawk

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Well beneficence kind of sucks now. It lost d2 for more attacks against 6+ model units, something I wouldn't be using a relic on.

With the revamp of Stern and Celestine, plus the addition of vahl, you don't really need to relic up a beat stick; you need to save them for support duty like extra prayer and possibly even litanies to get that miracle dice reliability.
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#283
Blurf

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Speaking of sacresants I decided to go with the halberds. Most of what they will probably be fighting won't have an invulnerable save and I think I want top go with a better chance of getting in 1 wound than a lower chance of getting in 2 wounds, although the math on it may show it to be a wash *shrug*. They will require more storage space though blush.png

Math on them is pretty simple:

Maces are better on everything with 2 wounds that isn't T5 or T6 and anything 4 wounds or more(also not T5 or 6). Also anything that has a decent invul.

Halberds are better on 1 and 3 wound models, any T5 or T6, and anything with -1 damage.

Spear should always be taken on the leader. It's real good.

Edited by Blurf, 12 June 2021 - 02:57 PM.

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#284
SkimaskMohawk

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Yea they're better on 2 wound models, but not quite by enough imo. You result in a dead marine ~44% from base a mace sister compared to ~36% from a halberdier.

Now there's a lot of ways to make that better, namely with bloody rose and set to defend which will average a dead meq per sacresant pool of attacks. But you still gotta weigh up what youre most likely to be hitting with them. There's lots of t3 models these days, admech kind of sit at t3 or 6, Orks are going to be t5, and custodes are performing pretty okay at the moment too. Marines are always popular though.

I'd ultimately recommend the halberd, but you're pretty safe taking whichever you think is coolest. The unit is very solid regardless.
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#285
Blurf

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Yea they're better on 2 wound models, but not quite by enough imo. You result in a dead marine ~44% from base a mace sister compared to ~36% from a halberdier.

Now there's a lot of ways to make that better, namely with bloody rose and set to defend which will average a dead meq per sacresant pool of attacks. But you still gotta weigh up what youre most likely to be hitting with them. There's lots of t3 models these days, admech kind of sit at t3 or 6, Orks are going to be t5, and custodes are performing pretty okay at the moment too. Marines are always popular though.

I'd ultimately recommend the halberd, but you're pretty safe taking whichever you think is coolest. The unit is very solid regardless.


It's like 1 damage either way so yeah, I'd agree with the caveat that certain buffs like Morvenn's will skew the results a bit one way or the other.

#286
SkimaskMohawk

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Yea they're better on 2 wound models, but not quite by enough imo. You result in a dead marine ~44% from base a mace sister compared to ~36% from a halberdier.

Now there's a lot of ways to make that better, namely with bloody rose and set to defend which will average a dead meq per sacresant pool of attacks. But you still gotta weigh up what youre most likely to be hitting with them. There's lots of t3 models these days, admech kind of sit at t3 or 6, Orks are going to be t5, and custodes are performing pretty okay at the moment too. Marines are always popular though.

I'd ultimately recommend the halberd, but you're pretty safe taking whichever you think is coolest. The unit is very solid regardless.

It's like 1 damage either way so yeah, I'd agree with the caveat that certain buffs like Morvenn's will skew the results a bit one way or the other.

She skews everything...kind of a fail in terms of design space.

#287
Fulkes

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I assume she will get at least a 100 point bump in the FAQ.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#288
Blurf

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I assume she will get at least a 100 point bump in the FAQ.

Honestly, I don't think she's going to be as good as everyone thinks she's going to be.

She's going to great, don't get me wrong. She's a top tier auto include in just about every list, but I don't think she's going to run anywhere near as rampant as Gurlymon did in 8th. Or be game changing enough to require emergency nerfs.The things that benefit most from he force multiplication can't keep up with her or don't survive long next to her

Retributors can be outranged and killed fairly easily(especially if they're not argent shroud) Sacresants are slow without a transport, Zephyrim are fragile, battle sister's output is low enough that even doubling it isn't a huge deal, Paragons are fragile, Repentia don't need her, dominions come out of transports and die before your next command phase, Seraphim have 6" range on their good pistols. Yes, getting her targeted buff off will make that unit bonkers, but doing so will be harder than people are giving it credit for.

I actually think it's herself(she shoots quite well) Celestine and Stern that will see Vahl's boon the most often.

For most units she's just going to be Canoness+Palatine.

Edited by Blurf, 12 June 2021 - 06:51 PM.


#289
Fulkes

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The problem is she is waaaay underpoints at 260.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#290
Blurf

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The problem is she is waaaay underpoints at 260.

Is she? How do you know? How many events have you taken her to? It's very difficult to judge the on table efficacy of an all in one model like Morvenn from stats alone and any competitively viable unit really requires a significant number actual competitive events to get the full measure of its abilities.

 

Morvenn is probably OP in beer and pretzels play but everything better than Predator tank is OP in Beer and Pretzels at some point or another. Whether she's OP in general or not (or just very competitive) is going to require sending her out there with the best sisters players, against the best every other army players.

 

Heck, for all we know, she's the only thing keeping us from being Sub-GSC and nerfing her will leave us in the single digit winrates. (No, I don't think that's the case but the problem is without any testing it COULD be.)



#291
Dread

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After the last few games in the store crusade games, i want something that can rival the "marines" bs. So if thinking she is op i will reserve judgement until ive been able to field her against the armies that have slaughtered my girls in turn 2 or 3. I left Celestin home thinking the games would be for fun but not, just brutal slaughter. I agree with most of what Blurf said cause i just lived it, er, died from it. 9 games, 1 win. So if the new book gives us some equivalent of their bs, so be it.

Sorry this turned into a rant.
gallery-48988-15465-6059.jpggallery-48988-16308-20607.pnggallery-30308-9518-8597.jpggallery-94427-16628-12663.png

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I like the way they pop.

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#292
Fulkes

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The problem is she is waaaay underpoints at 260.

Is she? How do you know? How many events have you taken her to? It's very difficult to judge the on table efficacy of an all in one model like Morvenn from stats alone and any competitively viable unit really requires a significant number actual competitive events to get the full measure of its abilities.

 

Morvenn is probably OP in beer and pretzels play but everything better than Predator tank is OP in Beer and Pretzels at some point or another. Whether she's OP in general or not (or just very competitive) is going to require sending her out there with the best sisters players, against the best every other army players.

 

Heck, for all we know, she's the only thing keeping us from being Sub-GSC and nerfing her will leave us in the single digit winrates. (No, I don't think that's the case but the problem is without any testing it COULD be.)

 

If our codex is so dependent on her costing less than Guilliman while having similar abilities to win games then we're screwed regardless. Don't defend something so heavilly undercosted that it's an autotake. That's defending bad internal balance.


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#293
Bonzi

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The problem is she is waaaay underpoints at 260.

Is she? How do you know? How many events have you taken her to? It's very difficult to judge the on table efficacy of an all in one model like Morvenn from stats alone and any competitively viable unit really requires a significant number actual competitive events to get the full measure of its abilities.

Morvenn is probably OP in beer and pretzels play but everything better than Predator tank is OP in Beer and Pretzels at some point or another. Whether she's OP in general or not (or just very competitive) is going to require sending her out there with the best sisters players, against the best every other army players.

Heck, for all we know, she's the only thing keeping us from being Sub-GSC and nerfing her will leave us in the single digit winrates. (No, I don't think that's the case but the problem is without any testing it COULD be.)

I thought she was undercosted but I think the part people need to remember is how frail the army around her is. Tabletop Titans just put up a game using her. She got nuked turn two by Eradicators when her screen got shot away. If she were in a Space Marine army she would be bonkers for her points. In a sisters army she might just be less broken than we think.

Xeno

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#294
ThePenitentOne

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Wow, just tried to watch that battle report. Great, amazing production values... And so much NOT game I couldn't get through it. When they took ten minutes pre-game to just put the batrep on hold to talk about the tournament circuit, I knew it was going to be rough for me.

 

They are funny, they are charming, and I'm sure they're better players than I am.  I know there's also a community that loves them, so I shouldn't rip on them.

 

No idea why there were no actual body guard units near MV, so maybe that's an object lesson?  



#295
Blurf

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The problem is she is waaaay underpoints at 260.

Is she? How do you know? How many events have you taken her to? It's very difficult to judge the on table efficacy of an all in one model like Morvenn from stats alone and any competitively viable unit really requires a significant number actual competitive events to get the full measure of its abilities.

 

Morvenn is probably OP in beer and pretzels play but everything better than Predator tank is OP in Beer and Pretzels at some point or another. Whether she's OP in general or not (or just very competitive) is going to require sending her out there with the best sisters players, against the best every other army players.

 

Heck, for all we know, she's the only thing keeping us from being Sub-GSC and nerfing her will leave us in the single digit winrates. (No, I don't think that's the case but the problem is without any testing it COULD be.)

 

If our codex is so dependent on her costing less than Guilliman while having similar abilities to win games then we're screwed regardless. Don't defend something so heavilly undercosted that it's an autotake. That's defending bad internal balance.

 

Don't defend making something worse for internal balance if it leads to bad external balance. That's just defending bad external balance.

 

I apologize for saying this but sometimes it seems like you're actively campaigning for the army to be bad. You've been aggressively refuting the idea that any unit in the book is significantly overcosted or a majorly poor performer, but have no problem immediately campaigning against Morvenn. Which is quite odd when you consider that it's much easier to determine that something's bad(especially when it's just a cut and paste of another bad unit ala the Castigator) than it is to tell exactly how good something is.

 

Are you a spy?

 

 

Wow, just tried to watch that battle report. Great, amazing production values... And so much NOT game I couldn't get through it. When they took ten minutes pre-game to just put the batrep on hold to talk about the tournament circuit, I knew it was going to be rough for me.

 

They are funny, they are charming, and I'm sure they're better players than I am.  I know there's also a community that loves them, so I shouldn't rip on them.

 

No idea why there were no actual body guard units near MV, so maybe that's an object lesson?  

You have to screen her better than they obviously did in that game but competitively, using actual bodyguard units isn't particularly effective. They only block snipers and they're very expensive to just have chilling with Morvenn. Generally it's better to position her in such a way that clearing out other units to get to her to  is too expensive to do while also having enough firepower to kill her. He made a bad mistake thinking those few battle Sisters were going to be enough to hold on and keep the Eradicators at bay. In essence he went big and went home.

 

The broader lesson is 'don't expose Morvenn while there are still Eradicators in play'.

 

That said, he brought 2 immolators so...it's not like he couldn't have spared the points. That's 300pts of Sacresants or Celestians, which against Salamanders would have been the safer bet, even if Celestians aren't exactly 'top tier efficient'.


Edited by Blurf, 13 June 2021 - 08:31 AM.


#296
SkimaskMohawk

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After the last few games in the store crusade games, i want something that can rival the "marines" bs. So if thinking she is op i will reserve judgement until ive been able to field her against the armies that have slaughtered my girls in turn 2 or 3. I left Celestin home thinking the games would be for fun but not, just brutal slaughter. I agree with most of what Blurf said cause i just lived it, er, died from it. 9 games, 1 win. So if the new book gives us some equivalent of their bs, so be it.

Sorry this turned into a rant.


I don't know much about crusade, but I know that previously, the sisters book tended to blow the marines out of the water. Sisters was easily higher power than any marine supplement.
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#297
Fulkes

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I apologize for saying this but sometimes it seems like you're actively campaigning for the army to be bad. You've been aggressively refuting the idea that any unit in the book is significantly overcosted or a majorly poor performer, but have no problem immediately campaigning against Morvenn. Which is quite odd when you consider that it's much easier to determine that something's bad(especially when it's just a cut and paste of another bad unit ala the Castigator) than it is to tell exactly how good something is.

 

Are you a spy?

Take your meds and take off the tin foil hat. I didn't spend years lugging around an all metal Sisters army to be accused of being a "spy" for wanting massive issues with the army to be addressed before GW nerfs it into the ground. The army is STILL GOOD. Stop this fear mongering nonsense about how the army is bad and we need an obviously undercosted unit to be good. You are creating a problem that doesn't exist in order to justify being a munchkin. Stop it.


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 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#298
ThePenitentOne

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Can't wait for a Skared cast fight with the new dex. He's got a Crusade series, and he hasn't fought sisters yet, so I should get a sweet batrep soon. Might take a trip out to the store tomorrow to pick up my dex and paragons.


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#299
Blurf

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I apologize for saying this but sometimes it seems like you're actively campaigning for the army to be bad. You've been aggressively refuting the idea that any unit in the book is significantly overcosted or a majorly poor performer, but have no problem immediately campaigning against Morvenn. Which is quite odd when you consider that it's much easier to determine that something's bad(especially when it's just a cut and paste of another bad unit ala the Castigator) than it is to tell exactly how good something is.

 

Are you a spy?

Take your meds and take off the tin foil hat. I didn't spend years lugging around an all metal Sisters army to be accused of being a "spy" for wanting massive issues with the army to be addressed before GW nerfs it into the ground. The army is STILL GOOD. Stop this fear mongering nonsense about how the army is bad and we need an obviously undercosted unit to be good. You are creating a problem that doesn't exist in order to justify being a munchkin. Stop it.

 

 

The 'are you a spy' comment was meant to be lighthearted and tongue in cheek. It seems to have been taken a bit more personally than was my intention.

 

As for the rest of it:

You've only really mentioned wanting the 'massive issues' that are good for us addressed and seem to either reject or be unconcerned with the 'massive issues' that are bad for us. You've been celebrating(for lack of a better term) the nerfs to old Repentia and Retributors (which, honestly a nerf of some kind was probably necessary) and calling for heavy nerfs on Morvenn(which only might need one) and dismissing to some degree the need for significant adjustments to things like the Triumph, Castigator and Immolator, all of which have more data to draw on than Morvenn either by already existing or by having an extremely close analogue in the game already.

 

The comment about us being 'sub-GSC' was obviously hyperbole intended to illustrate the greater point I was making; that we don't know how integral to the balancing of the army Morvenn is and that pre-emptive nerfs could create a cascade effect if the army has been tuned around her being a centerpiece for competitive play. If she needs to see adjustments it should be a holistic change that allows for the army to gain back some amount of what was lost elsewhere. Not a FAQ nuke in the middle of what could potentially be our most efficient unit. No, I don't think we'd be terrible even without Morvenn, but why would I want to chance that when waiting for the winter CA/FAQ and acquiring more data is an option?

 

While I still believe this book is a step back from the previous one, I acknowledge and have acknowledged that we're still perfectly functional. This book doesn't make us a bad army. Going off half cocked and demanding nerfs of our best units day 0 just might though.

 

If you want an example of fear mongering and creating problems that don't exist, you should find a mirror. She's been out a DAY and you're already calling for 100 point nerfs. It's ridiculous. Especially when the majority of Sisters player's ENTIRE experience with Morvenn right now is watching her get blasted off the table top of turn 2 on Tabletop Titans.

 

I admit I've been highly critical of this book but you've been just as zealous about everything that isn't Morvenn being above reproach. Even if you like the book overall, there are several poorly implemented rules (Tale of the Stoic for example) and several units that carry over unaddressed issues from the previous book (Immolators) or inherited new issues from less than ideal redesign (Triumph) that are far more pressing than Morvenn being a bit above the power curve.


Edited by Blurf, 13 June 2021 - 06:56 PM.


#300
Fulkes

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You mean when TT took a special character and didn't give her any kind of body guard once so ever? Yeah, that's ridiculous to use as an example of her being weak.

 

Moving on to something relevant to the book I think Argent Shroud is worse than people think for one reason: it only works on normal moves and advances. This means it can't work on disembarks as those are not normal moves.


Edited by Fulkes, 13 June 2021 - 06:56 PM.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.





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