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#301
Bonzi

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You mean when TT took a special character and didn't give her any kind of body guard once so ever? Yeah, that's ridiculous to use as an example of her being weak.

Moving on to something relevant to the book I think Argent Shroud is worse than people think for one reason: it only works on normal moves and advances. This means it can't work on disembarks as those are not normal moves.

I'm not concerned by that as it seems like hair splitting RAW vs RAI. Argent Shroud can run and shoot their heavies with no penalty, I feel confident playing them as being able to step out of a rhino and do the same.

For the same reason I'm not playing Paragons as if they ignore damage 1 weapons and feel sure they don't cost 240 per model as the book indicates but rather 240 per unit.

Edited by Bonzi, 13 June 2021 - 07:03 PM.

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Imperium

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#302
Fulkes

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You mean when TT took a special character and didn't give her any kind of body guard once so ever? Yeah, that's ridiculous to use as an example of her being weak.

Moving on to something relevant to the book I think Argent Shroud is worse than people think for one reason: it only works on normal moves and advances. This means it can't work on disembarks as those are not normal moves.


I'm not concerned by that as it seems like hair splitting RAW vs RAI. Argent Shroud can run and shoot their heavies with no penalty, I feel confident playing them as being able to step out of a rhino and do the same.

 

It's not splitting hairs, it's recognizing that we don't get a free pass to play the mechanized game with AS. They're more the foot MSU army than the mechanized army.

 

I'm not trying to be flippant, but disembarks are not normal moves and specifically say units who disembark always count as moving the turn they do so. Deeds not Words specifically says it only ignores movement penalties for Normal Moves and Advancing. If it was meant to work on Disembarks they'd just say "doesn't count as moving" as many older similar rules do. GW has specifically called out where and when it works though which excludes the Disembark.


Edited by Fulkes, 13 June 2021 - 07:06 PM.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#303
Purifying Tempest

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Can't they disembark and then do a normal or yadda yadda? So that way by then end of the phase, unless you took them out within 3 and then left them there, they have made a normal move or advance... thus the wording is triggered? Don't have the CRB in hand, but pretty sure that's not a good faith argument to make against Argent Shroud.

#304
Fulkes

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Can't they disembark and then do a normal or yadda yadda? So that way by then end of the phase, unless you took them out within 3 and then left them there, they have made a normal move or advance... thus the wording is triggered? Don't have the CRB in hand, but pretty sure that's not a good faith argument to make against Argent Shroud.

The issue I see is that disembarks say you always count as moving until the end of the turn, whild Deeds Not Word only says you count as not moving for making a normal move or advancing. The always clause and the fact DnW is specific to Normal Moves and Advancing makes me believe it doesn't override the penalty for disembarking.


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#305
Dread

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Got to see new dex today. Im satisfied that some justice has been accomplished. Will know more after play but content for the moment.
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gallery-48988-15465-6059.jpggallery-48988-16308-20607.pnggallery-30308-9518-8597.jpggallery-94427-16628-12663.png

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#306
sitnam

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Got to see new dex today. Im satisfied that some justice has been accomplished. Will know more after play but content for the moment.

 

How are the lore aspects? I know the 9e codexes got rid of unit profiles and such


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#307
EmperorGTank

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So I have my first game with the new book tomorrow. I was just going over some of the stratagem wordings and comparing them between the old and new book to catch anything I may mess up, and I feel like Holy Trinity got nerfed back to how it was in the CA codex back when we were rolling for Acts on a 5+ like the old 5th edition WD sham of a dex they saddled us with.  I would love some clarification from you guys, as I really do not want to cheat my opponent, but also really want combi weapons to work for it lol. The wording in the 8th edition dex says "...within range of at least one bolt weapon being shot by a model in the unit, one flame weapon being shot by a model in the unit, and one melta weapon being shot by a model in the unit." The new codex wording states (after adding the visibility sentence of course, which is fine and I understand why) "...at least one model in in that unit equipped with a bolt weapon, one model in that unit equipped with a flame weapon and one model in that unit equipped with a melta weapon..." 

So...do combi weapons still count? Or do I need 3 separate models to all have those different weapons equipped again?  The range requirement is till there of course, not worried about that with a dominion squad lol. My issue is that I am not sure if the superior with the combi weapon counts as satisfying both instances of "a model" because she is a model with 2/3 of whatever weapons are required, but since the new codex specifies "a model...,a model..., a model..." do we need to have 3 such models to satisfy it?

Sorry to be so convoluted and I hate to even bring this up, but I just do not want to mess any more rules up than I probably will tomorrow lol.



#308
Dread

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Man do i not know that answer. But being that all the rules are pretty literal, ive found and mostly disappointing, i would go with 3 models until faq'd.

@sitnam, i didnt get to see much on that. Just mainly what got changed in units and seeing if the new ate worth changing too. Only got 10 minutes before the store closed. My dex will be here hopefully in the next few days.
gallery-48988-15465-6059.jpggallery-48988-16308-20607.pnggallery-30308-9518-8597.jpggallery-94427-16628-12663.png

I have come to kick ass and chew bubble gum! And I'm fresh outta bubble gum.

I like the way they pop.

ORDER OF THE CERULEAN SHROUD (SISTERS), NECRONS (ILLUMINOR'S MINIONS)
FROSEN STARS (HARLEQUINS), SAIM-HANN (CRAFTWORLD), DARK ELDAR
NIGHTLORDS,

#309
Maschinenpriester

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I have got my hands on the new codex now as well. I might be a bit late to the party. =D

The internal balance looks good to me. Some of the ridiculously strong combos got obviously nerved. I am definitely sad about hte exorcist nerf because it is my favourite model and it was not too dominant in my opinion. It is nice tho have the out of LOS shooting Strat though.

What jumps into my eye right away.... Especially because I regularily fight necron warrior blobs.
The "Righteous Impact" stratagem (Dont know the prober english term because I have the german codex) where you can deal MW after charging with PEs or Mortifiers (one models is enough to trigger this) looks pretty bonkers to me against big blobs of T4 units. Or Big blobs of low toughness stuff in general.
That would be about 13 MWs on Necron Warriors for instance, or am I misreading stuff?

Edited by Maschinenpriester, 14 June 2021 - 09:46 AM.

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#310
Purifying Tempest

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I have got my hands on the new codex now as well. I might be a bit late to the party. =D

The internal balance looks good to me. Some of the ridiculously strong combos got obviously nerved. I am definitely sad about hte exorcist nerf because it is my favourite model and it was not too dominant in my opinion. It is nice tho have the out of LOS shooting Strat though.

What jumps into my eye right away.... Especially because I regularily fight necron warrior blobs.
The "Righteous Impact" stratagem (Dont know the prober english term because I have the german codex) where you can deal MW after charging with PEs or Mortifiers (one models is enough to trigger this) looks pretty bonkers to me against big blobs of T4 units. Or Big blobs of low toughness stuff in general.
That would be about 13 MWs on Necron Warriors for instance, or am I misreading stuff?

 

In the English version it specifies that the number of d6 to roll to determine mortal wounds is dependent on the number of models in your (Sororitas) unit that ends up in engagement range after the charge move.  So 4 dice at the max.  I was pretty underwhelmed by it :(


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#311
Maschinenpriester

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I have got my hands on the new codex now as well. I might be a bit late to the party. =D

The internal balance looks good to me. Some of the ridiculously strong combos got obviously nerved. I am definitely sad about hte exorcist nerf because it is my favourite model and it was not too dominant in my opinion. It is nice tho have the out of LOS shooting Strat though.

What jumps into my eye right away.... Especially because I regularily fight necron warrior blobs.
The "Righteous Impact" stratagem (Dont know the prober english term because I have the german codex) where you can deal MW after charging with PEs or Mortifiers (one models is enough to trigger this) looks pretty bonkers to me against big blobs of T4 units. Or Big blobs of low toughness stuff in general.
That would be about 13 MWs on Necron Warriors for instance, or am I misreading stuff?

In the English version it specifies that the number of d6 to roll to determine mortal wounds is dependent on the number of models in your (Sororitas) unit that ends up in engagement range after the charge move. So 4 dice at the max. I was pretty underwhelmed by it :(
Oh you are correct. I misread that part... Dammn then it is not quite worth it.. . That would be 2 MWs on average again said necron blob. At lest they don't get to reanimate...

Edited by Maschinenpriester, 14 June 2021 - 12:48 PM.


#312
Purifying Tempest

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Maybe look at Blessed Bolts on Dominions or 20x Battle Sister squads?  The former are FAR cheaper, the latter has access to Defenders of the Faith.  Add in Catechesim of Repugnance (doesn't work AS well at range AND with Blessed Bolts active) and, if you're Sacred Rose, The Emperor's Judgement and you can: do upwards of 6MW to that squad, and shower them with a lot of armor saves; and destroy your store of CP all in 1 action smile.png

 

There's actually a few really nice combinations of stuff like that to get a quick power spike, but it does get very draining on the CP very quickly.

 

Edit: Those armor saves can also be upwards of -1 or -2 with the various buffs active (Sacred Rite included).  It is actually fairly trivial to get -2 or -3 AP Heavy Bolters with the way the buffs stack together.  But it takes a lot of buffs from different sources.


Edited by Purifying Tempest, 14 June 2021 - 01:06 PM.


#313
Purifying Tempest

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Also, I know I am going to get torched for saying anything positive about Paragons... but it is super important to acknowledge that they are Adepta Sororitas Core, which gives them exclusive access to our Battle Prayers.  No other walker has access to those in the army.  Paragons on turn 1 with Heavy Bolters can move up 8" and be within 18" of the enemy lines to shower some poor guys with 12 Stormbolter shots and 9 -2 AP Heavy Bolter shots (Catechism), augmented with Exceptional Proficiency to hit on 2s.  I think as a basic unit they have a bit more risk inherent to running them due to enemy weapon interactions than Mortefiers or PEngines, but they benefit from a lot more of our buffs and enhancements (even Litany of Enduring Faith for a 5++).

 

Edit: More edits because I cannot get it all in 1 go, lol.  Lead the Righteous (Canoness re-roll) also exclusively affects Paragons in comparison to the other walkers.  Not a huge boon, but another tally to help even the scale.


Edited by Purifying Tempest, 14 June 2021 - 01:20 PM.


#314
Bonzi

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Also, I know I am going to get torched for saying anything positive about Paragons... but it is super important to acknowledge that they are Adepta Sororitas Core, which gives them exclusive access to our Battle Prayers. No other walker has access to those in the army. Paragons on turn 1 with Heavy Bolters can move up 8" and be within 18" of the enemy lines to shower some poor guys with 12 Stormbolter shots and 9 -2 AP Heavy Bolter shots (Catechism), augmented with Exceptional Proficiency to hit on 2s. I think as a basic unit they have a bit more risk inherent to running them due to enemy weapon interactions than Mortefiers or PEngines, but they benefit from a lot more of our buffs and enhancements (even Litany of Enduring Faith for a 5++).

Edit: More edits because I cannot get it all in 1 go, lol. Lead the Righteous (Canoness re-roll) also exclusively affects Paragons in comparison to the other walkers. Not a huge boon, but another tally to help even the scale.


I built my Paragon kit yesterday and will be running the squad no matter what their points are. Don't apologize for trying to find the silver linings for sub par units.

I'm running them as Argent Shroud with multimeltas. With even an average advance roll and the +1 advance and charge sacred right that puts them in half range of anything the opponent deploys on their front line. (Yes, I know multimelta Immolators do this trick better and cheaper, don't ruin my dreams!)

Xeno

Necrons

 

Imperium

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Blood Angels - Hands of Sacrifice

 

Traitor Legions

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#315
Purifying Tempest

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Argent Shroud Paragons with the same tactics above (Catechism + Exceptional Proficiency) may be able to get those Stormbolters within half range, too, for that extra AP.  I think they require a 5 or 6 to do it, but it is possible.  That's if you get initiative, though, if you don't... it should be even easier.  And with prayers being during the Command Phase, it should be even easier to NOT outrun your support on that turn.



#316
Fulkes

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So the 40k app updated Paragons (courtesy of the Sisters Discord):
Dn0N3Cr.jpg
If you go into the unit entry proper it says "0" for points but the army builder costs the unit.

dcnE4h0.jpg

Celestine hasn't been fixed yet though.

Edited by Fulkes, 14 June 2021 - 03:10 PM.

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 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#317
SkimaskMohawk

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I like how I still don't have access to the new stuff on the app even with my code. I've logged out, I've reinstalled. Nothing.

Glad I got the leaked version.
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#318
taikishi

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Congratulations, you just extolled doing 4 less damage than Mortifiers in the shooting phase* (6 if you aren't in half-range) for 50-65 more points, an action, Divine Guidance, and a command point. This is irrespective of the Argent Shroud reroll since that only equates to a 2/9 chance of forcing another save.

4 Mortifiers are 240 points with 8 BS3 heavy bolters. 3 Paragons + a minimum Dialogus is 290 points.

Mortifiers average 12 damage to a unit of Marines. Paragons with your listed buffs except for a Canoness deal 8 damage, or 6 damage outside half range. A Canoness only adds one additional failed save to the totals, bringing them to within 2D within half range, or within 4D of Mortifiers outside half range. Vs. T5 3+, Mortifiers do equal damage to Paragons once the Paragons are buffed and inside half range.

As for saves, with the Hymn active Paragons take as much damage on average as Mortifiers after their FNP when shot by dark lances and multimeltas. The Mortifier, however, will generally survive an attack from a Dark Lance with 1-2W remaining (~26% chance) and 93% chance of surviving a Dark Lance at all (failed hit, failed wound, FNP reduces damage below 5). 55% of the time, the Dark Lance attack doesn't damage the Mortifier. A Paragon has a 69% chance of taking no damage from a Dark Lance, but if the SoF save fails there's only a 1 in 3 chance the Paragon survives. 20% of Dark Lance attacks will destroy a 5++ Paragon. 7% of Dark Lance attacks destroy a Mortifier.

I'll math how both stand up again multimeltas later. Don't have a lot of time right now and this post went longer than I anticipated.

* Numbers are purely for heavy bolters. Storm bolters will follow later, though the different ranges will require 4 sets of data points.

Edited by taikishi, 14 June 2021 - 03:49 PM.


#319
Fulkes

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I can't subscribe to the app no matter what I try, so I get that feelings.

"Leaked" version is just screencapped off the Mob Rules video.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#320
Purifying Tempest

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I had a whole post lined up for you taikishi, but I get it... you hate paragons and these is nothing that anyone can say that will prevent you from ah-ha dunking on them with boogeymen arguments.

 

I'm just going to leave it at: harshly negative comments about the army/codex that are dripping with criticism with the intention of making the model widely ignored and not taken because... whatever... is not healthy for anyone.  It drives people away from wanting to purchase the army or expand their existing line, which makes GW less likely to pay attention to the line while they're trying to capitalize on hype and enthusiasm.  It makes the community look terrible because if you differ in opinion, you know you are going to get struck with a line of people looking to slaughter you for daring to oppose the orthodoxy.  There is nothing redeeming about being hyper critical to the point of making yourself into a pariah.

 

The bulk of that is not directly specifically to you, but it is the growing feeling that I am having for the sisters community as a whole.  It needs to stop.  We need to take the good with the bad and find a way to make the bad... better.  This is not a bottom tier book or army.  We need to find ways to genuinely look past the mathematical crap that drives people to bad decisions on the table.  Look at how many champion lists are mathematically... not the best.  It's like there is an element of the game that is not bound to pure math, and units have elements to them that cannot be fairly represented in offensive potency or defensive woes.  When you fall victim to these sorts of lines of thought, all you become is a gatekeeper to keep the less proficient from hitting the top tables... you will never be able to develop the mental agility required to actually threaten the people that win.

 

So I get it, saying anything positive about paragons will get me flamed... but to toss them away without a holistic view and understanding what they can do instead of dismissing them for what they can't do... is exactly how we get blindsided by people who take the time to dig deeper into what these "bad" units can.


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#321
SkimaskMohawk

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I mean, the whole point of using math is to understand what to expect on average. You can then compare that result, be it damage dealing or durability, to a competing unit and see if it's worth it for the given role in your army.

And that's kind of the important part, there's some roles that aren't able to be calculated as easily and are more of something you need to flex in circumstantially.

In a straight up damage comparison we can see that it requires a lot of resources for the Paragons to deal less than mortifiers. In a straight up defence comparison we can see they are more likely to die to a common weapon. So in that role of either DPS support or durable anchor, theyre not good compared to competing choices.

But when stuff maybe changes with Orks, who traditionally like volume of fire instead of quality, the Paragons might be better prospect. New variables change the math.
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#322
Purifying Tempest

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I mean, the whole point of using math is to understand what to expect on average. You can then compare that result, be it damage dealing or durability, to a competing unit and see if it's worth it for the given role in your army.

And that's kind of the important part, there's some roles that aren't able to be calculated as easily and are more of something you need to flex in circumstantially.

In a straight up damage comparison we can see that it requires a lot of resources for the Paragons to deal less than mortifiers. In a straight up defence comparison we can see they are more likely to die to a common weapon. So in that role of either DPS support or durable anchor, theyre not good compared to competing choices.

But when stuff maybe changes with Orks, who traditionally like volume of fire instead of quality, the Paragons might be better prospect. New variables change the math.

 

Understood, but shutting down the discussion means that we never had the conversation of where Paragons excel (basically beating weapons with "bolt" in their name or other similar weapons).  They go onto the shelf and no one buys them, they are forgotten and as the meta shifts we lose a tool.

 

And "common" weapon and "dark lance" is kinda a disingenuous argument to make.  Drukhari represents what?  A staggering 3-5% (probably a HIGH estimate) of the armies out there.  And while it is never good to disregard them outright, it isn't exactly good to make it sounds like it is raining dark lances like it was plasma at the start of 8th.  My wife plays Drukhari almost exclusively.  I have a healthy respect for them.  But that's why I plan on having additional threats in that same category like Immolators with Twin-MMs, even though they're bad, and Rhinos that can dump Dominions and Sacrosancts before charging into whatever line unit may be available to tie up her resources.

 

If we assume that there are only Paragons and Dark Lances on the battlefield, of course they look terrible.  But if you present your opponent with a diverse array of threats, maybe they have more value.  Maybe not, who knows.  But definitely don't start off with "shelf unit, hard pass".

 

Besides, I thought GW only published new models to scalp us for money for OP stuff?  The new hotness rules the meta and stuff? :)  Seriously though, have the discussion, but don't forget that while dark lances do into wreck a Paragon's day, what are you getting in return?  What directions can you push these to separate them from PEngines and Mortifiers?  Because, yes, in a straight up fight for offensive dominance, Paragons don't win.  In some defensive arguments, too, Paragons don't win.  So where do they win?


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#323
Fulkes

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To me Paragons seem like a bully unit. You send them after soft to medium durability targets, much like using Terminators.

Edited by Fulkes, 14 June 2021 - 05:04 PM.

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#324
taikishi

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My only major issue work Paragons is the model itself; the Sister's legs should either be outside the suit or the suit should be scaled in a way that her feet aren't at its knees. But I have issues with a lot of GW models and their scaling and proportions, so this isn't unique to the Warsuits.

Trust me, I want to like the Warsuits, but the investment to make them decent isn't worth the opportunity costs that can be put elsewhere into units that are already better. Every resource in an army is precious and scarce. Why would I invest my resources making a bad unit mediocre or a mediocre unit average when I can spend them improving the things that are already good?

And I don't see Orks making Paragons better than Mortifiers unless Paragons stay immune to D1. I don't have time to run the simulations, but I would think 8 heavy flamers or 8 heavy bolters would still be better than 3 on the shooting end. In the fight phase, getting 10 attacks (or 12 with the default Hymn) per model with flails at 3+ is better than 10 attacks total. I also don't remember the stats in the new choppas, so I'm not willing to make a call on which is more survivable in melee vs Orks.

#325
Fulkes

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Darkest timeline: sisters who use the suits don't have feet or lower legs.
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