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#51
ThePenitentOne

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The higher cost than PE's and Morties is because Paragons will get <Order> traits and AoF where PE's and Morties don't.

 

I expect stats other than saves to be identical to PE's and Morties.

 

I hope unit size isn't fixed at 3, but it would explain why they are priced as they are.



#52
ValourousHeart

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Did anyone else notice this model in this mornings Community Email?

 

gallery_8790_3236_40520.png

 

Doesn't look like anything from the current line or that has been announced.



#53
MagicHat

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It is a conversion based on Junith Eruita. I also did a doubletake, but I recognized the mace.


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#54
Bonzi

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I don't know if anyone noted or puts much stock in the Chapter Approved leaks but I noted that for sisters units storm bolters are now 'artificer' storm bolters and all flame weapons are now 'ministorum' flame weapons. This hints to me that these weapons will have a different profile than the standard variants used by SM and Guard forces. I especially note the difference because heavy bolters, multimeltas and plasma weapon names stayed the same.

I'm curious what these possible changes might be for these two particular weapons. D2 on the artificer storm bolters maybe. Better ap, reroll number of hits or ignores cover all seem plausible for the ministorum flamers.

Edited by Bonzi, 01 June 2021 - 03:46 AM.

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Xeno

Necrons

 

Imperium

Astra/Tempestus Militarum - Vostroyans

Blood Angels - Hands of Sacrifice

 

Traitor Legions

Emperors Children - Making Noise Marines Scream


#55
Banjulhu

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I would guess either a damage boost or possibly an increase in AP as I think strength increases would push them too close to their heavy equivalents and I would like to avoid going back to thee eDex days of Dominions everywhere.

I did notice the blurb on the Celestian Sacresants on Sunday mentioned that "They’re also dab hands at protecting your Characters, which comes in handy when the fighting gets up close and personal." which suggest they also have the same bodyguard ability as the normal Celestians and as such I'm wondering if the normal Celestians will get relic bolters or similar as standard (I could easily see them being range 30", S4 AP-1).



#56
ThePenitentOne

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I like the Sacresant models, and I'm getting some for sure.

 

But it doesn't make sense to me that a unit with the body guard ability would have a shield. The way the body guard rule works is you take a mortal wound so that the character doesn't get hit. But the fact that the MW cuts through saves nullifies the shield. I just don't get it- here's a piece of gear for you, but if you use the ability that is unique to your unit, your gear won't do anything.

 

Like I said, like the models and want them in my army regardless of their rules, but I do think this is mechanically awkward.



#57
RolandTHTG

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Did anyone else notice this model in this mornings Community Email?

 

gallery_8790_3236_40520.png

 

Doesn't look like anything from the current line or that has been announced.

 

 

It is a conversion based on Junith Eruita. I also did a doubletake, but I recognized the mace.

 

I now know what I'm going to be using for my dogmata model instead of the awkward generic one. 


As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
gallery_29004_6198_5619.pngUUPlRKI.pnggallery_48988_15465_7428.pnggallery_48988_15465_9161.png


#58
Banjulhu

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https://www.warhamme...th-giant-maces/

 

QL8J7LG2BzQOxu4v.jpg

That's not a lot of melee output for an 80pts model.

DJLZ3Ksvj9mwMqa8.jpg
zH04e8ck7ZfqtcMS.jpg

Sword makes it a bit better and S6 AP -3 D2 will chew up elite infantry and light vehicles but I'm not keen on the mace because 3 attacks hitting on 4s does not feel worthwhile.

UvmRBIf46HklriHx.jpg

They do get damage reduction which is good and there is no to a minimum of 1 rider there which in theory makes them immune to small arms.


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#59
ThePenitentOne

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Did anyone else notice this model in this mornings Community Email?

 

gallery_8790_3236_40520.png

 

Doesn't look like anything from the current line or that has been announced.

 

 

It is a conversion based on Junith Eruita. I also did a doubletake, but I recognized the mace.

 

I now know what I'm going to be using for my dogmata model instead of the awkward generic one. 

 

 

Curious if you have any plans for Junith's hovering altar.

 

I don't mind the Dogmata, but I thought about picking up Junith to make a different conversion: I think that altar could sit on the front of a Knight just above the head to create a giant walking pulpit. 


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#60
MagicHat

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I like the Sacresant models, and I'm getting some for sure.

But it doesn't make sense to me that a unit with the body guard ability would have a shield. The way the body guard rule works is you take a mortal wound so that the character doesn't get hit. But the fact that the MW cuts through saves nullifies the shield. I just don't get it- here's a piece of gear for you, but if you use the ability that is unique to your unit, your gear won't do anything.

Like I said, like the models and want them in my army regardless of their rules, but I do think this is mechanically awkward.


Bodyguard rules have changed into making characters untargetable, even by snipers, if close to the bodyguard unit.
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#61
Marshal Loss

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I don't know if anyone noted or puts much stock in the Chapter Approved leaks but I noted that for sisters units storm bolters are now 'artificer' storm bolters and all flame weapons are now 'ministorum' flame weapons. This hints to me that these weapons will have a different profile than the standard variants used by SM and Guard forces. I especially note the difference because heavy bolters, multimeltas and plasma weapon names stayed the same.

I'm curious what these possible changes might be for these two particular weapons. D2 on the artificer storm bolters maybe. Better ap, reroll number of hits or ignores cover all seem plausible for the ministorum flamers.

It's likely(but not certain) just to insulate weapons from stat changes/name changes in different books. Wouldn't necessarily expect stat changes just because the name is different, we've seen this a few times already


bRxSYDV.png


#62
MagicHat

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I don't know if anyone noted or puts much stock in the Chapter Approved leaks but I noted that for sisters units storm bolters are now 'artificer' storm bolters and all flame weapons are now 'ministorum' flame weapons. This hints to me that these weapons will have a different profile than the standard variants used by SM and Guard forces. I especially note the difference because heavy bolters, multimeltas and plasma weapon names stayed the same.

I'm curious what these possible changes might be for these two particular weapons. D2 on the artificer storm bolters maybe. Better ap, reroll number of hits or ignores cover all seem plausible for the ministorum flamers.

It's likely(but not certain) just to insulate weapons from stat changes/name changes in different books. Wouldn't necessarily expect stat changes just because the name is different, we've seen this a few times already

 

 

When have we seen stuff getting new names but not different rules?

 

Also, the SoB storm bolters cost more then marines storm bolters. Seems highly likely that there are stat changes.



#63
war009

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 I am seeing the marine stormbolters as 5pts also



#64
MagicHat

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So it is. Damn. 

Castigator have an ordinary stormbolter for the same price as well.



#65
Ficinus

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I don't know if anyone noted or puts much stock in the Chapter Approved leaks but I noted that for sisters units storm bolters are now 'artificer' storm bolters and all flame weapons are now 'ministorum' flame weapons. This hints to me that these weapons will have a different profile than the standard variants used by SM and Guard forces. I especially note the difference because heavy bolters, multimeltas and plasma weapon names stayed the same.

I'm curious what these possible changes might be for these two particular weapons. D2 on the artificer storm bolters maybe. Better ap, reroll number of hits or ignores cover all seem plausible for the ministorum flamers.

It's likely(but not certain) just to insulate weapons from stat changes/name changes in different books. Wouldn't necessarily expect stat changes just because the name is different, we've seen this a few times already

 

 

I mean, that theory makes a lot of sense and probably would be a good idea, but why only do it for flamer weapons and stormbolters but not bolters, heavy bolters, any melta weapon, etc.?  Like, why just a few of the weapons?

 

That said, we should probably have low expectations to prevent disappointment when nothing changes.



#66
Maschinenpriester

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I do like the stats of the new warsuits. They look like the tanky unit The sororitas are lacking.
I wonder what their best use and equipment would be.
I guess beating up medium and heavy Infantry up close. It does not feel they'll be capable of reducing hordes with their 9-12 attacks. The sword definitely strikes me as the best choice at first glance.
What to do withtthe ranged option? Heavy flamers sound like fun for close combat (I would assume they get the vehicle keyword) .
Heavy meters also look like a solid choice but then they will get more expensive and probably want to stay out of cc.

If the order traits remain VH would Synergie nicely with them. And bloody rose of course.
Any thoughts?

Edited by Maschinenpriester, 01 June 2021 - 08:27 PM.


#67
Blurf

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I do like the stats of the new warsuits. They look like the tanky unit The sororitas are lacking.
I wonder what their best use and equipment would be.
I guess beating up medium and heavy Infantry up close. It does not feel they'll be capable of reducing hordes with their 9-12 attacks. The sword definitely strikes me as the best choice at first glance.
What to do withtthe ranged option? Heavy flamers sound like fun for close combat (I would assume they get the vehicle keyword) .
Heavy meters also look like a solid choice but then they will get more expensive and probably want to stay out of cc.

If the order traits remain VH would Synergie nicely with them. And bloody rose of course.
Any thoughts?


They don't output enough damage for their price. And while some of that is made up in their extra longevity, it's hard to ignore that you can get 4 mortifiers for the price of 3 paragons.

#68
Banjulhu

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If their damage reduction is -1 damage without a rider of to a min of 1 then I can see them being a big impact on the game.

Otherwise they will just be serviceable and likely competing with either repentia or retributors for a place which is a hard sell.

On the assumption that bloody rose stay the same I can see a unit of the new celestians with maces being godly.



#69
taikishi

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Assuming nothing changes where the Order Convictions are concerned, the only one I see as a complete dud for the warsuits is Sacred Rose. Getting a MD back on a 5+ is nice, but the OW bonus is better on large squads, not three heavy bolters. Also, ignoring combat attrition when the unit is too small to fail the test is pointless. As for the other five, in no particular order:

 

* Valorous Heart for more survival or Bloody Rose for more killing are fairly obvious.

* Argent Shroud is handy for being able to advance and still fire the heavy bolters or multi-meltas, but Retributors do it cheaper and get one more shot.

* Martyred Lady has an interesting dynamic with a unit of 2+/6++ T5, 4W models since the survivors will be BS2, WS2

* Ebon Chalice would give them more survival against Mortal Wounds and recycling a Miracle Die on a 5+ is handy, but I don't know if those two items are worth going EC for beyond the obvious "snag the WL trait" -- which can be done in a detachment with units who don't care what your order trait is like Mortifiers.


Edited by taikishi, 02 June 2021 - 03:09 AM.


#70
Maschinenpriester

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If their damage reduction is -1 damage without a rider of to a min of 1 then I can see them being a big impact on the game.

Otherwise they will just be serviceable and likely competing with either repentia or retributors for a place which is a hard sell.

On the assumption that bloody rose stay the same I can see a unit of the new celestians with maces being godly.

Yeah the cc damage output is very hard to sell. It seems like paying a premium for a jack of all trades kind of unit. I wonder what the rocket launchers or bolters will be like. These alse add to the ranged output. I wonder if it is the same launcher that that new character has in its suit?

Edited by Maschinenpriester, 02 June 2021 - 04:51 AM.


#71
Vanger

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I am with Banjulhu, that for 80 points, 3 attacks and some ranged attacks are a bit steep...

They probably only will be valid with Vahls buff... IF they are CORE.

uenHx4B1su85ussj.jpg

 

Also I am 99% sure, that the dmg reduction ability is a typo and they won't be immune to small arms fire.


Edited by Vanger, 02 June 2021 - 07:59 AM.

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#72
Banjulhu

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It's worth remembering that the days of being able to pin units in combat with unkillable units is dead thanks to how the fall back rules work so in theory having a unit that can ignore damage 1 weapons is not impossible to deal with especially given we are seeing an influx of more D2 and better weapons across the game, it just feels like a really out of no where shift if it is not a typo.


Still we dont know what else is on their sheet. There could be something else on there being kept quite which will make use all go "Oh that's why they are 80 points a pop". If not it's a pretty model set that can be built and put in the corner
 



#73
Progenitor

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In before there's no "down to a minimum of 1" on the damage reduction in the book, SoB top tournaments even harder for a month and then it gets added in the FAQ because it should have been there to start with and got missed. This seems 100% GW to me. 


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#74
taikishi

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My gut is telling me Valorous Heart's Conviction and/or Tale of the Stoic is going to change based on the Sacresants:

 

Current VH and assuming the shields function as storm shields:

 

* 2+ with +1 to the armor save and 4++

* Ignore AP1

* Ignore AP2 if within 6" of an Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic

 

vs.

AP0: 2+ save

AP1: 2+ save

AP2: 2+ save with Tale of the Stoic OR 3+ save without

AP3: 4+ armor or invul save

Everything else is a 4++ and then you have a 6+++ to shrug off the damage after the save. Even at T3 and 1W, that seems like a super durable infantry unit at only 14ppm.


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#75
SkimaskMohawk

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It's still way too early to comment on the Paragons viability unfortunately. There's so much power tied to synergistic stuff that just the Statline + point costs don't add up to the reality. There's still a lot of unknowns on if they're changing/staying;

-Sacred Rites
-Order traits
-Warlord traits
-stratagems
-miracle dice use
-miracle dice generation

And then we have the one use abilities and keywords to add on top.

To put it in perspective, the repentia Statline/cost isn't anything special on its own. But you add bloody rose, exploding 6s, advance and charge and miracle dice for possibly both advance and charge and you suddenly have an incredible spike damage unit.




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