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GW and pricing, there's a problem.


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#1
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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This got started in the marine sub, but I figured this was a topic that deserves its own thread that everyone can participate in.

I have been excited about heavy Intercessors just to find out this troops choice is $60/5 that's ridiculous.

2 boxes cost more than what I paid for my baneblade years ago.

I'm sure that the primaris range isn't the only one seeing this issue.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 21 May 2021 - 05:47 PM.

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#2
MARK0SIAN

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GW increase their prices, everyone still buys loads of it so they increase their prices again and everyone still buys loads of it. That will just keep happening. Whenever a new release happens and the price is revealed it’s almost funny how many of the comments follow the pattern of “This release is ridiculously priced, it’s going to to hurt my wallet when I buy 3 of them!”

Until they hit the wall where people genuinely can’t/won’t pay the price and it hurts their bottom line they’ll just keep upping prices. The only thing we as a community can do is vote with our wallets which must be what happened to make them drop the price of the app.
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#3
deathspectersgt7

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Yeah. But we still buy .
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#4
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Ya, people still do, and I think we should boycott. 2 weeks of their sales crashing might be enough to make the point.

Price should reflect cost to produce though often it seems like you're also paying a premium for the rules that go along with stronger units.
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#5
firestorm40k

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I'd say the way round this is to go to discounted retailers, ebay, partworks series (Conquest, Imperium). Sadly, it does seem GW are wising up to the discounted retailers, as indicated by the frequent reports of these stores having the quantity of new (high demand) items they can stock limited, compared to the quantities they could order in the past.

Surely, GW can't do this long term, as they'll start putting stores out of business, which surely would reduce the channels they have to sell their products?

In the meantime, while I still can, I'll continue ordering from a (discounted) third party retailer, or second hand from eBay...
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#6
Marshal Loss

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GW have no serious competitors, and people keep buying their products no matter how high the prices go. Nothing will ever change while those two factors stay consistent. I've taken small stands from time to time (I effectively quit 30k when Forge World shifted to regional pricing) but don't see much point complaining anymore.


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#7
Bryan Blaire

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Sales are at an all-time high right now - they’ve likely accumulated enough money on hand to weather quite a bit of boycott, if something like that would even get a following to actually happen - given the sales are at an all-time high, good luck with anyone wanting to try to start that.

 

A better individual option would be to just buy what you need (which, if you are honest with yourself, may be nothing), or convert things that you want, or even buy 3rd party/non-GW materials, and while all of these feed GW in some fashion (for rules, at the bare minimum), your wallet will be aligned how you want it.

 

I don’t think the application is that applicable as an example, because the only reason to subscribe to that is if you wanted the content and play the game - that left a smaller pool to start with than the entirety of the 40K consumer that buys models - the cost and available content with functionality limited that pool even more.  I know I will never use their app, because I have absolutely no need for it whatsoever, however, I will buy models I like, even if it’s not for armies that I typically play (which itself has dropped to virtually nil anyway), so my need to purchase things from GW has dropped significantly.


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#8
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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I'd say the way round this is to go to discounted retailers, ebay, partworks series (Conquest, Imperium). Sadly, it does seem GW are wising up to the discounted retailers, as indicated by the frequent reports of these stores having the quantity of new (high demand) items they can stock limited, compared to the quantities they could order in the past.

Surely, GW can't do this long term, as they'll start putting stores out of business, which surely would reduce the channels they have to sell their products?

In the meantime, while I still can, I'll continue ordering from a (discounted) third party retailer, or second hand from eBay...

find me a discount retailer that will be selling HIs for $48 and that's a viable solution
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#9
Jukkiz

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I'd say the way round this is to go to discounted retailers, ebay, partworks series (Conquest, Imperium). Sadly, it does seem GW are wising up to the discounted retailers, as indicated by the frequent reports of these stores having the quantity of new (high demand) items they can stock limited, compared to the quantities they could order in the past.

Surely, GW can't do this long term, as they'll start putting stores out of business, which surely would reduce the channels they have to sell their products?

In the meantime, while I still can, I'll continue ordering from a (discounted) third party retailer, or second hand from eBay...

find me a discount retailer that will be selling HIs for $48 and that's a viable solution

 

Check internets for recasters if you want cheap GW products.

I think this thread is going down the drain soon-ish, considering everyones opinions of GWs pricing methods.


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#10
MetalMammoth

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Just the other day I was at a toy store to pick up some plastic glue.

I saw a 1:35 german Leopard 1 tank model kit for the same price as a box of nurglings would cost me. The difference between part count, size, detail, amount of plastic, and length of entertainment gained from building it is nothing short of staggering.

 

At this point, we're paying the stupid tax. I'm only angry because I did it as well. Never again, though.

...Well, maybe just an Underworlds kit... and perhaps a warband.... or four.... Emperor give me strength! They don't call it plastic crack for no reason.



#11
gaurdian31

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$60 for HI is $12 a model, which is better than the 3 man eliminator squad at $50 for $16.67 a model or a primaris captain at $35 for 1 monopose model. I don't like the HI price mind you, it is just there are others out there that are priced worse. 


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#12
Dark Shepherd

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$60 for HI is $12 a model, which is better than the 3 man eliminator squad at $50 for $16.67 a model or a primaris captain at $35 for 1 monopose model. I don't like the HI price mind you, it is just there are others out there that are priced worse.


For a troops choice its bad. At least with elites theres a (shakey) justification of theyre well elite

AdMech previews have made me think cards are pretty much cumpulsory these days, 2 decks for some marine players, but the cards are getting huge % price increases

#13
gaurdian31

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Honestly HI should be an elite or heavy slot, but that is another discussion. Another troops choice then is Tyranid Warriors, $55 for 3 making them $18.33 each and they are a bit more necessary then HI, or at least they used to be to get synapse out there for the smaller bugs.


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#14
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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$60 for HI is $12 a model, which is better than the 3 man eliminator squad at $50 for $16.67 a model or a primaris captain at $35 for 1 monopose model. I don't like the HI price mind you, it is just there are others out there that are priced worse.

which isn't a defense...it just proves my point more...
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#15
gaurdian31

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I'm not saying it is, I just find it odd that this unit is the unit that gets everybody posting about pricing when it has been an issue for years.


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#16
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Honestly HI should be an elite or heavy slot, but that is another discussion. Another troops choice then is Tyranid Warriors, $55 for 3 making them $18.33 each and they are a bit more necessary then HI, or at least they used to be to get synapse out there for the smaller bugs.

nothing in their stats or gear indicates they should be heavy or elites.
Bolt rifles and a heavy bolter isn't a heavy support load, nor is their statline representative of them being elite.
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#17
m_r_parker

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Sadly, it does seem GW are wising up to the discounted retailers, as indicated by the frequent reports of these stores having the quantity of new (high demand) items they can stock limited, compared to the quantities they could order in the past.
 

 

I'd have to point you to two factors here that are hampering their production and distribution network: Covid and Brexit. The combination of those are what's hitting 3rd party retailers the hardest.

Covid in particular is a big hitter. Social Distancing requirements in their Nottingham base of operations has slowed down their ability to get product out of the door, from the sheer fact that they can't have as many people as usual working in the same space at the same time. Then having retail stores in the UK come out of Tier IV lockdown only a few weeks back meant that there was increased pressure on the factories to get ~4 months of new releases into stores for people to buy. Having been in my local store a few times I've seen how their usual delivery schedule was impacted (fewer deliveries) and gaps on the shelves from stock that hasn't been shipped. If you were GW and you had a bottleneck in your production and distribution networks, where would you prioritise your supply being distributed?

So yes, third party retailers have been hit by not getting as much stock as usual - but it's also reflected in other areas, such as GW brick an' mortar stores. Even newer releases on their webstore seem to be selling out quicker than previously, and I'm sure it isn't down to increasing popularity.

 

 

A better individual option would be to just buy what you need (which, if you are honest with yourself, may be nothing), or convert things that you want, or even buy 3rd party/non-GW materials, and while all of these feed GW in some fashion (for rules, at the bare minimum), your wallet will be aligned how you want it.

 

This is such a good suggestion. Gravis armour isn't exactly new to the Heavy Intercessor, so converting shouldn't be too much of a problem. Kitbash some cool takes on the updated bolt rifles - I know so many people that are actually happier to see kit bashed / converted units rather than stock miniatures, playing them as counts-as shouldn't be a problem.

 

Price should reflect cost to produce though often it seems like you're also paying a premium for the rules that go along with stronger units.

 

To cover the second part of that statement, yes there is a undoubtedly a premium in pricing for those elements where customers are not going to be buying multiple boxes. HQ choices and special characters are the epitome of this, looking at examples of Primaris Chaplains / Captains / Librarians / Apothecaries. Are people really going to want to buy another troop choice when there are already multiple existing Troop choices that are plentiful enough? Even taking that into consideration there is also no doubt that a RRP will factor in projected sales volumes (variable) versus cost to manufacture (variable) and cost to develop (fixed) and cost to support (both fixed and variable elements). Basing price purely on a net weight of plastic and complexity of sprue design just doesn't happen, and frankly nor should it.

 

As for "Price should reflect cost to produce" - real thought needs to go into how much you think it costs to "produce" these items, and I'm guessing the thought process here is based on raw materials and time to manufacture? There are so many additional factors in play here it wouldn't be possible for a single person to accurately create a list of the many costs and overheads that a company of GW's size has to accommodate. Everything from the costs of running brick and mortar stores across the globe (500+ if memory serves) with the staff associated with keeping the doors open, through to the development cycle of creating new models and rulesets (from first concept through to graphic design, translation to sprue design, mould making, refinement, art design, rule design, management, etc) and the various background services required to keep all of that running. As someone who has considerable experience with the cost of corporate IT, the amount of money that is spent on systems dedicated to ERP, HR, Warehouse and Distribution, Security, Web Hosting, Payment Processing and Finance - they cost a literal fortune. Then there's the staff required to keep all of this running; from the people running the warehouse to those manufacturing the sprues, thorough to the support staff who keep all the building running smoothly, HR, Security, Facilities, Artists, Designers - and the fact that the majority of these people live and work in the UK, which is one of the most expensive places to have staff. A lot of other companies would have relocated their manufacturing to China for the reduced cost in production (seriously, it's over 90% cheaper), and their IT system support and Customer Services teams to India (~80% cheaper) but GW does the majority of its work in the UK with UK people - keeping jobs in the country I live in, and I think that doesn't get said enough. People aren't cheap either, ignoring base salary and looking at elements like pension schemes, paid time off for holiday / sickness / maternity & paternity leave, insurance policies, and the various other benefits you get. Look at Covid when it hit the UK. GW made a point during the first major lockdown in the UK (where all retail stores, office, and manufacturing premises were closed) that no member of staff was made redundant, and that the company maintained employee pay at 100% by supplementing the UK furlough payment scheme. They were also one of the first to announce paying back furlough money back to the UK government after lockdown was lifted. Hell, if that's where some of my money is going then fair enough.


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#18
Wulf Vengis

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Ebay. 'Nuff said.

The discount isn't always much but if you're like me and don't want to pay GW directly it's the prefect storefront.
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#19
Rik Lightstar

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GW don't break down sales figures, which makes it hard to gauge sales volumes of individual products. But their 2020 report says they had a revenue of approximately £200 million for the year. Let's assume an average gamer spends around £50 a month on each system they play and that 40k represents 60% of their total active customers. That's £120 million divided by the £600 annual spend, giving us 200,000 players for 40k.

Let's take a conservative estimate that the team for the core 40k rules is 7 people including a manager, a lead developer and five developers with them getting paid "reasonable salaries" for the UK at £50,000/£40,000/£30,000 at each level respectively that's £240,000 a year. Plus the associated support costs on payroll, HR, office space, IT systems, the list goes on and on. We're looking at £400,000 minimum. Over a 4 year release cycle that's £1.6 million, so the rules cost £8 a player just to develop.

We're then going to have to add in background fiction, art, design, print, distribution, etc, and get the entire thing in for under the £24 that it goes for to an independent retailer.

It should be pretty clear by now that the rules probably don't ever break even. So yeah, the models do pay for the rules.

*these figures for costs are estimates, but I'd be surprised if they were far off.

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#20
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As has already been said a couple of times, the problem is Warhammer fans will complain endlessly about it, but at the end of the day they still open their wallets and fork over the cash. You can complain as loudly as you want, and it makes no difference if you're still going to buy it regardless. The only real say we have in the matter is by refusing to make the purchase.

 

This is why probably 70% of the models I own came out of Start Collecting or the various other box sets. Models that I couldn't get that way came from other retailers who sell at a discount, or eBay. I will only order directly from GW on the rare occasion they put out a product of genuinely good value, like Indomitus.

 

It's a shame because, as far as faceless corporations go, GW are one of the few I actually have some good faith towards. They still make the best miniatures in the business, and I get the feeling their staff are mostly enthusiastic geeks just like us who with real passion for what they're doing. But it must be said, the marketing and sales side of the business takes advantage of our good faith a little more often than is acceptable.


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#21
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Covid and brexit are real and cause problems, but I thought they said their sales and profits are at an all time high? Kind of negates those excuses. They are not hurting, if anything they benefitted from the lockdown. They don't make money off people from playing matches (which covid prevented), they make money off you from buying their over priced plastic, paint, brushes, books and such, which people did more so during covid than before.

For every complainer there is a defender and someone making up poor excuses for them, pretending to know global logistics, multimillion dollar company economics and inflation rates, extrusion/chemical/material rates, tool and dye/mold making costs, and each can be annoying. At the end of the day just vote with your wallet, which a majority will still buy so GW will keep raising prices, warranted or not.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 22 May 2021 - 12:39 AM.

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#22
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Covid and brexit are real and cause problems, but I thought they said their sales and profits are at an all time high? Kind of negates those excuses. They are not hurting, if anything they benefitted from the lockdown. They don't make money off people from playing matches (which covid prevented), they make money off you from buying their over priced plastic, paint, brushes, books and such, which people did more so during covid than before.

For every complainer there is a defender and someone making up poor excuses for them, pretending to know global logistics, multimillion dollar company economics and inflation rates, extrusion/chemical/material rates, tool and dye/mold making costs, and each can be annoying. At the end of the day just vote with your wallet, which a majority will still buy so GW will keep raising prices, warranted or not.

voting with my wallet is why I'm trying to whip up support for a boycott lol
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#23
N1SB

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voting with my wallet is why I'm trying to whip up support for a boycott lol

 

 

biggrin.png  Brother, your request is understandable, but let us be consistent in our beliefs.

 

We can say GW is greedy, as long as we also conceded all companies are greedy because shareholders are greedy and that also consumers are greedy.

 

Greed is NOT good.  Greed (like Darkseid) simply IS.  And everyone is guilty of this sin.

 

Then can we please boycott something else?  I KNOW that's the whole point that Heavy Intercessors are so damn desirable, what with their Toughness 5 with 3 Wounds and better guns...especially combined with the Iron Hands Feel No Pain of 6+ holy moly...they're like what Tyranids wish their Warriors are omg.  And you really want them to see it in their marketing telemetry, but gosh, they even Objective Secure!  We want to support you, Brother, but can you have a more reasonable ask instead?

 

Hey hey hey, let's boycott the coming edition of AoS instead?  That's a whole product line AND their big launch this fiscal year.  Let's kick them HARD in the AoS instead, how 'bout it?


Edited by N1SB, 22 May 2021 - 04:41 AM.

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#24
MegaVolt87

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GW diversifying their product lines is their response to our pricing complaints when you think about it. We just are buying less, but the thing is we are still buying which is what is really important for them anyway. Boycotting is useless, I would encourage more disciplined spending instead of spending just for the sake of spending/ impulse buying which I notice is a thing for many in the GW hobby. 


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#25
Black_Knight

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Its been a problem for a decade, its just it seems to be escalating in the last 3 years to the point that I am expecting £5 increases per year if you compare a model released at the start and one at the end of the year.


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