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GW and pricing, there's a problem.


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#301
Valkyrion

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Cheers, but I still don't understand! 

It's such a huge figure, but what is it profit on?



#302
Dark Shepherd

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They really, really, dont have any excuses for price increases for quite some time. Unless their big push into Asia is a Dreadfleet level disaster.


Their excuse is people keep buying no matter what and the shareholders will benefit.
*Some people keep buying no matter what. Not everyone. My last three army projects all involved GW alternative parts.
I don't care for GW's modern scale-bloated aesthetic and I am certainly not paying through the nose for it.

I like my local GW guy but the only thing I bought from him in the last year were plain bases.

The paint sales being flat here is interesting as model sales boomed. Even allowing for supply problems seems like paint is the biggest area that competitors eat into their sales. Other than maybe bases its the easiest/most subtle way to work in non GW stuff. Plus the amount of tutorial vids esp Duncan that use different paint ranges. This trend could well continue

#303
Halandaar

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Cheers, but I still don't understand! 

It's such a huge figure, but what is it profit on?

 

I think (not 100%) that it's the "profit" figure the studio (i.e. design to manufacture) makes from selling finished product to internal departments; namely the webstore, trade sales department and retail chain. The figures then reported for those separate divisions seem to be the profit they make from selling that product on. Maybe?!


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#304
Inquisitor lorr

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Cheers, but I still don't understand!
It's such a huge figure, but what is it profit on?


I think (not 100%) that it's the "profit" figure the studio (i.e. design to manufacture) makes from selling finished product to internal departments; namely the webstore, trade sales department and retail chain. The figures then reported for those separate divisions seem to be the profit they make from selling that product on. Maybe?!

It’s exactly that. It’s an accounting reporting requirement in many jurisdictions. Where segments of a business are sufficiently separate and have their own budgets/revenues etc, and where one provides products/services to another segment, the value of those sales generally has to be recorded in accounts.

#305
Valkyrion

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I think i get it - the GW we see are just the retailer, they have to themselves purchase that stock from somewhere, even if it is from a division of themselves?



#306
Inquisitor lorr

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I think i get it - the GW we see are just the retailer, they have to themselves purchase that stock from somewhere, even if it is from a division of themselves?


Pretty much. I haven’t actually looked at GW’s accounts, but usually the figure you have mentioned would be deducted from top line revenue, so you can easily see what revenue was generated externally.

The main reasons they generally break it down like that is so you can easily identify operational streamlining opportunities, risks and dependencies - e.g. if department B (say telephone sales) is driving all demand/generating all ‘sales’ for department A (manufacturing) there is a risk if something happens to department B (for argument’s sake - telephone calls become illegal…). You (and shareholders/prospective purchasers) can then clearly map that risk. It’s only really relevant where you have a very large company with lots of departments which each have their own revenue and demands, but which rely on other departments. To be honest, if you’d have asked me if GW was big enough/structured in such a way to warrant it, having not seen the GW accounts, I’d have probably said not, but they are probably required to do so by the relevant accounting standards.
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#307
Valkyrion

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Are we (regarding the design to manufacture) talking about Citadel? Is that the manufacturing arm of games workshop?

 

I admit to still being a bit confused in this context.... biggrin.png

 

I'm really interested, and I would like to learn, but I'm not sure that this is the place to give a frater a lesson on multi million pound accountancy practices, or that I have the mental capacity to fully digest it anyway!



#308
Arkhanist

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That's an interesting thought; it could also be an artifact of the original company setup. Games Workshop was originally just a retail store, and they sold other companies miniatures, d&d stuff and handmade wooden games IIRC. Citadel Miniatures was founded as a separate company that made lead minis, including d&d ones, also sold by GW; they had a partnership with ral partha, to sell each other's minis in the US and UK respectively in the 80s. Marauder Miniatures was founded by ex Citadel staff, and were also sold by GW - they were still around when I started. Forge World was created as a semi-independent brand to make terrain and large scale collector models, separate from their mainstream Citadel manufacturing; it remained a skunk works for oddball stuff for a long time, and still is to an extent.

 

Citadel merged back into GW and GW switched to selling Citadel exclusively a long time ago, and now is just a brand name. But paint and miniatures are still under the citadel imprint, while the retail stores are rebranded to 'Warhammer' stores. (possibly to cut down on the amount of people that wander in and ask if they sell Nintendo!) So when you have Citadel making stuff, Warhammer retail stores selling Citadel stuff, the GW website selling Citadel plus specialist games which are under Forge world now, and Citadel also selling minis & paint to 3rd party trade, plus wherever Forge world and Black Library are in the structure these days, all run by different teams, it does make sense to have some of those as separate accounting items.


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#309
Imren

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What an interesting read! From the corporate reports I think we all can agree that GW is doing fine. Also some of the GW-historians among you pointed out that GW did manage to rise from hard times when their sales slumped in the past. When it comes to pricing and the "market" I'd like to point out another thing that is less discussed here but significant for the topic and seems to be the elephant in the room, and that is the recast market.

 

Legally there is no doubt that recasting is not allowed commercially. Especially in our part of the world. Majority of this community comes from the western world (in the political and cultural sense) and most of us morally frown upon it. But there is a significant GW games community in the eastern world too, especially Russia and China, there are communities there that translates the rulebooks/codexes and other GW publications and spread the pdf's and in combination with a blooming recasting market that in practice roams free there is a significant Warhammer scene in those countries too. Those communities would have never existed if GW legal teams had any suction in those countries' jurisdictions. As far as I understand Australians that have suffered alot from higher official GW RRPs than the rest of the world (especially the 30k community) have also tapped into the Russian/Chinese recaster market.

 

Now we may think this is bad and legally it is crystal clear this is not acceptable. But morally, it is not so clear, I see for myself a moral greyscale between morally acceptable and not. I do understand the argument that recasting is bad for the IP owners business. But that is true assuming that those who consume recasted products would in fact buy the original GW product if recasters where not available, and that is most lilkely not true for Russia and China because of their middle class are smaller in relative size and have waay lower average incomes. Also I believe that culturally speaking, copying is much more acceptable in these countries/cultures that in the western world.

 

I find that the recasting business is on an ethical grayscale (from my western-culture mindset point of view) simply because two reasons:

  1. Several recasters' product have a higher quality standard than GW (Forgeworld) when it comes to resin models. Not only have they less bubbles and warpage, they also have less mould slip.
  2. Recasters provide event exclusive models and models that are out-of-production at GW/FW. What options do you have if you really want/need a Mechanicum Macroarid explorator, apothecary in cataphractii armour, Autilon Skorr or a Achilles-alpha pattern Land raider?

Because of these reasons, I find it in some circusmstances morally ok to turn to recasters, but obviously I am aware that it is legally not.


Edited by Imren, 29 July 2021 - 10:23 AM.

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#310
Gederas

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[lots of stuff]

Because of these reasons, I find it in some circusmstances morally ok to turn to recasters, but obviously I am aware that it is legally not.

Honestly Imren, I agree with almost everything you've said about that.

 

If GW/FW no longer makes a specific model, morally it's okay in my books to buy recast. I mean, I'll outright say it: For my Dark Angels 30k force, I bought recast because Forge World doesn't make the Caestus Assault Ram, Mark II marines/shoulders or the Legion/Chapter specific doors for (non-Deimos) Rhinos and Land Raiders anymore. Legally, it's not okay. Morally? If they don't want my money, I'll buy elsewhere. Simple as that.


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#311
Noserenda

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I mean its still not moral, a few of the bigger recasters get up to a few real nasty practices, buying OOP or Limited Ed minis is doing somewhat less harm.


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#312
LameBeard

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I think this is a good point. I have been eyeing some OOP alpha legion cataphractii pads for a while, then realised it was a recaster. If someone is ready to operate outside copyright law, maybe I could live with that. But how do I know they are also operating within the environmental laws that apply to their manufacture? Are they paying tax? Surely they have to exist completely off the grid for any regulation? I accept copyright laws vary by jurisdiction, but this still feels too grey too me.


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#313
Halandaar

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Look, I get it. The option to buy an official model from source doesn't exist in some cases and therefore if you're buying it from a recaster you aren't directly hurting GW by doing so. But who, or what else are you hurting?

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

It's a much more complicated situation than "can't deny GW money if they don't want to sell me the product".
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#314
RWJP

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Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.


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#315
Rik Lightstar

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Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.

In addition to these really good points, you simply don't know what your "resin" product is made of and you're likely to be handling, sanding, filing and cutting that stuff.

Taking that a step further, you're creating a market for it in poor countries meaning people are getting paid subsistence wages to work with potentially harmful substances likely with very little or no PPE.

The step after is that these aren't "enthusiastic hobbyists trying to supply affordable models to poor gamers", these are organisations that are already engaging in large scale counterfeiting and using that revenue to fund other sides of their business.

I'd say it's far less morally justifiable than "I got a cheap dreadnought" may first appear.

Rik
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#316
MegaVolt87

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Look, I get it. The option to buy an official model from source doesn't exist in some cases and therefore if you're buying it from a recaster you aren't directly hurting GW by doing so. But who, or what else are you hurting?

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

It's a much more complicated situation than "can't deny GW money if they don't want to sell me the product".

 

Actually, shall we say less than legal enterprises have a big interest maintaining safety and environmental standards, because if they don't thats extra charges they are prosecuted for if they are caught and by having good practices there they are less likely to be caught/ detected in the first place. Bringing this back around to GW/ FW, my line is OOP/ limited ed models being sold as original when they are re-casts is definitely wrong. Also its impossible for a company to lose any money on goods they no longer make/ discontinue to make. Another example- classic cars. The original parts are becoming scarcer and more expensive/ unobtainable, so after market re-production parts for cheaper fill a gap. Car companies aren't going to lose money on discontinued cars 30-40+ years old that don't use factory parts they no longer make (owners take the hit on value when there are less original parts).

 

For arguments sake, lets say FW announces tomorrow all OOP items are coming back this year to the range. That could easily re-capture half the people chasing re-casts on OOP models, who would rather spend their money with FW, even if its more expensive. (this is me). Making some money is better than the no money FW are making now by not maintaining their product line. If FW wants to no longer meet the demands of its market, others will and that is FW's fault for giving them that leeway in the first place. Like that comic with the guy riding the bike, taking a stick and placing it in the front wheel deliberately and falling off the bike, same energy. 


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#317
armarnis

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Virtually no recaster needs your credit card as they almost exclusivly use paypal except a few russian ones. These usually use a similar service tho. Talk to your bank about a virtual/prepaid/burner card if in doubt!
So there is even an added layer of safety due to buyer protection if PP is involved.

I can only speak about a certain few recasters from china but they have to follow rather strict enviromental regulations and the used workshops need to supply their workers with personal safety gear. And these things are controlled by the gov regular. Both with sheduled visits and also via unsheduled ones.

This is not meant to push people to buy from recasters but to shed some light on a shady biz so people can have a better clue with what they aree dealing.

Edited by armarnis, 02 August 2021 - 06:28 AM.

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#318
AenarIT

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It’s not only an issue with OOP models, but with minor things like transfer sheets as well.

Example: you want to start a Red Scorpions army, one of the most iconic chapters aside from the 1st founding ones. You go to the FW website only to find that the RS transfer sheet has been OOP for years now.

You can either:
- give up and change chapter;
- decide to freehand a red scorpion on a white circle on a black field on every shoulder pad, vehicle, … in your army, hoping you decide not to commit sudoku after the first couple of models;
- try to contact one of the few companies that offer custom transfer sheets hoping they don’t recognize the RS logo as a GW one, which they officially can’t print as it’s part of GW’s IP;
- learn to 3D sculpt and 3D print RS pads and insignias yourself;
- buy unofficial RS transfer sheets or unofficial RS shoulder pads from the internet, hoping the quality is good enough and despite these being in a grey area legally, as the logo is GW’s IP;
- buy recasted RS pads and insignias from recasters.

Stopping the production of models is not fun for us customers, but if the models are moved to Legends the issue is not that big.
Stopping the production of something that simply needs a printer and some transfer paper, something which is essential to a whole collection, simply pushes customers towards (technically) illegal solutions. And that’s money left on the table, because the transfer sheet design is sitting on a hard disk somewhere in Nottingham and a single piece of paper could be sold for £20.

I will never feel bad for having spent upwards of €200 just for recasted insignias, unofficial transfer sheets and ultimately 3D printed unofficial pads just because GW stopped printing official transfer sheets.
Two official transfer sheets for £40 would’ve been not only cheaper but a better solution for sure. I even asked the FW customer service directly but they weren’t able to help me at all.
Resorting to unofficial solutions wasn’t a money issue in this case, at least for me.
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#319
armarnis

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hoping you decide not to commit sudoku after the first couple of models


That line made me almost die from laughing!
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#320
Noserenda

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I can only speak about a certain few recasters from china but they have to follow rather strict enviromental regulations and the used workshops need to supply their workers with personal safety gear. And these things are controlled by the gov regular. Both with sheduled visits and also via unsheduled ones.

This is not meant to push people to buy from recasters but to shed some light on a shady biz so people can have a better clue with what they aree dealing.

I mean ive heard second hand from a very reliable source about chinese workshops paying pennies for workers without any ppe at all doing resin casting work. Thats not to say thats always the case but it certainly happens, its what opened my eyes to exactly how the cheap forgeworld minis are so cheap. 






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