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Ideas for list Post FAQ Nerf


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#1
farfromsam

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Since the recent FAQ points nerf my two main DA lists have gone up 150 points and 160 points.  These list can't survive losing 150 points (7%) and still being effective so I'm starting to look into new builds.  My style up to this point revolved around a triwing effort with an emphasis on Ravenwing for fast obsec and meltas that can get into position.  So I have a few questions

 

-What builds have you found to be effective against Admech, and Dark Eldar (both of which went unmolested from the FAQ)  

 

-Does DeathWing have the fortitude and points efficiency to weather 4 turns mid field.

 

-Has anyone tried allying DW and IG to flood the table and win via board control and staying power.  Is it points viable


Edited by farfromsam, 09 June 2021 - 11:17 PM.

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#2
dice4thedicegod

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My crazy offball suggestion… if playing deathwing heavy list… maybe better to ally in knights than guard… that way your opponent has no good targets for their chaff clearance guns… and too many hard targets for their AT weapons. (I.e. leverage a skew list)
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#3
Malakithe

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What points changes were there? I havent seen them



#4
oldmanlee

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What points changes were there? I havent seen them

The latest chapter approved that came out last weekend
Talonmaster went up 15pts
Attack bikes went up 5pts each
Chief apothecary upgrade went up 20pts
And there was a change to death on the wind

Deathwing heavy list is not great against admech I played the new admech book last Thursday I lost 15 terminators in one turn to mortal wounds and combat. And deathwing are still way too slow against dark eldar
I personally think greenwing with a splash of deathwing or ravenwing might be the way to go but I'm not sure as I don't play enough and I'm not a fan of 9th edition at all

#5
G8Keeper

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What was the change to death on the wind? I've missed that one.
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#6
Angel of Solitude

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What was the change to death on the wind? I've missed that one.

The clarification was that “minimum 12” move” now means you have to be 12” in a straight line displaced from your original location, not just going in a 12” circle and staying in the same place.

In response to the original question, if you ally in something else then don’t you lose your detachment abilities? So no combat doctrines, no ObSec Termies or bikes. Probably not a worth-while trade off.

Edited by Angel of Solitude, 10 June 2021 - 07:11 AM.

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#7
march10k

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I personally think greenwing with a splash of deathwing or ravenwing might be the way to go but I'm not sure as I don't play enough and I'm not a fan of 9th edition at all

 

Multi-wing has always been the way.  Pure ravenwing comes in a distant second, and pure deathwing is probably worse than pure greenwing.  But all three is best. 

 

My list went up only 45 points because I wasn't spamming talonmasters and attack bikes.  The Chief Librarian is still a no-brainer in spite of the points increase.  If anything, he's costed correctly for chapters with extra sexy bikes and badly overcosted for Ultramarines now.


Edited by march10k, 12 June 2021 - 03:20 AM.

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#8
farfromsam

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What points changes were there? I havent seen them

The latest chapter approved that came out last weekend
Talonmaster went up 15pts
Attack bikes went up 5pts each
Chief apothecary upgrade went up 20pts
And there was a change to death on the wind

Deathwing heavy list is not great against admech I played the new admech book last Thursday I lost 15 terminators in one turn to mortal wounds and combat. And deathwing are still way too slow against dark eldar
I personally think greenwing with a splash of deathwing or ravenwing might be the way to go but I'm not sure as I don't play enough and I'm not a fan of 9th edition at all

 

 

Plasma Inceptors as well

 

My crazy offball suggestion… if playing deathwing heavy list… maybe better to ally in knights than guard… that way your opponent has no good targets for their chaff clearance guns… and too many hard targets for their AT weapons. (I.e. leverage a skew list)

 

I really like that idea, but, it doubles down on the problem of not filling out the table with units.  My play is to push to the field midpoint and survive.  with that in mind, what's the best knight for sitting back and pumping out shots? what's the best anything for that?



#9
dice4thedicegod

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What points changes were there? I havent seen them

The latest chapter approved that came out last weekend
Talonmaster went up 15pts
Attack bikes went up 5pts each
Chief apothecary upgrade went up 20pts
And there was a change to death on the wind

Deathwing heavy list is not great against admech I played the new admech book last Thursday I lost 15 terminators in one turn to mortal wounds and combat. And deathwing are still way too slow against dark eldar
I personally think greenwing with a splash of deathwing or ravenwing might be the way to go but I'm not sure as I don't play enough and I'm not a fan of 9th edition at all

 

 

Plasma Inceptors as well

 

My crazy offball suggestion… if playing deathwing heavy list… maybe better to ally in knights than guard… that way your opponent has no good targets for their chaff clearance guns… and too many hard targets for their AT weapons. (I.e. leverage a skew list)

 

I really like that idea, but, it doubles down on the problem of not filling out the table with units.  My play is to push to the field midpoint and survive.  with that in mind, what's the best knight for sitting back and pumping out shots? what's the best anything for that?

 

I would think that a mechanicus castellan with cold eradication warlord trait and cawls wrath would be the thing to get.  

if I were doing it, I’d probably get the castellan along with Maybe with a couple of cheap armiger warglaives , run a custom house (glorified history and defiant fury) .  That detachment would cost approximately 900 points and zero cp.  but the castellan gives monumental shooting and the warglaives can shoot/fight reasonably for their points.



#10
Grand Master Raziel

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Dude, what kind of crazy list were you running? My current list is a Ravenwing Outrider with 2 Talonmasters, 6 MMABs and the Ravenwing Chief Apothecary and it only went up 80. I'm dropping 2 Bikes and a Black Knight to pay for it.


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#11
ValourousHeart

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What was the change to death on the wind? I've missed that one.

The clarification was that “minimum 12” move” now means you have to be 12” in a straight line displaced from your original location, not just going in a 12” circle and staying in the same place.

 

Which document is that in?

 

I get that it is trying to stop have all your bikes parked in 1 place and have one bike circle the unit to count as moving.  But does that mean if there is a lot of terrain on the board and you have to zigzag to get through it, only the straight line distance will count for certain rules?


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#12
Angel of Solitude

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It’s in the Core Rulebook FAQ:

“Page 366 – Rules Term Glossary
Add the following:
Moved x" or more: Some rules require a unit to move x" or more, or are triggered when a unit moves x" or more, where x is a specific value listed in the rule itself. In both such cases, it is the displacement between the start and end of the move that is being referred to, and not the total distance moved. For example, in the former case, such a rule requires all parts of every model in the unit to end their move at least x" away from where they started. In the latter case, such a rule is triggered when all parts of every model in the unit have ended a move at least x" away from where they started.”

Given the way it’s worded, having to zig-zag through terrain would prevent you from satisfying the requirement.

Rules as intended though, if you’ve made a genuine attempt to move 12” and you’re not just jiggling about or going in a circle, then I’d say you’d satisfied the requirement.
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#13
march10k

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It’s in the Core Rulebook FAQ:

“Page 366 – Rules Term Glossary
Add the following:
Moved x" or more: Some rules require a unit to move x" or more, or are triggered when a unit moves x" or more, where x is a specific value listed in the rule itself. In both such cases, it is the displacement between the start and end of the move that is being referred to, and not the total distance moved. For example, in the former case, such a rule requires all parts of every model in the unit to end their move at least x" away from where they started. In the latter case, such a rule is triggered when all parts of every model in the unit have ended a move at least x" away from where they started.”

Given the way it’s worded, having to zig-zag through terrain would prevent you from satisfying the requirement.

Rules as intended though, if you’ve made a genuine attempt to move 12” and you’re not just jiggling about or going in a circle, then I’d say you’d satisfied the requirement.

 

You're 100% correct in spirit.  In practice, there are quite a lot of players who would want to rule it the way that you do if it were their bikes involved, but "rules as written" if it were their opponent's bikes.  40k is a wonderful game ruined by the players.  Or, as my sainted grandmother was fond of saying "people are just no damned good!"


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#14
davextreme

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> Plasma Inceptors as well
 

 

yes these are 40/each now with Bolters or 60/each with Plasma. They still do better damage dmg/point but it makes the Bolter versions more appealing.

 

> 40k is a wonderful game ruined by the players.

 

As you say, the rule change/clarification was needed because certain types of players abused it. Secondaries are about posing a challenge for you to solve for a reward. The question would be whether it’s too difficult now for the points it gives you. I’ve been playing Crusade games so I haven’t been able to test it. Maybe DotW could have been reduced to 10 inches or moved up to 3 points for completion. Or maybe it’s just fine in actual play. It’s at least clear now, though maybe getting a larger unit of bikes where every bike has moved the requisite distance will be tricky.



#15
farfromsam

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I think with this latest FAQ, and lack of balance.  DA are out of the mix aside from fluff, and fun games that is.


Edited by farfromsam, 13 June 2021 - 11:22 PM.


#16
Vulshra

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I disagree. They took a hit but are no means unviable. Obsec terminators and bikes, along with a not bad chapter tactic, and a good psychic domain means I think they should stay if not at the top of the meta at least in contention in the hands of a good commander

#17
farfromsam

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They didn't win a GT before Dark Eldar came out.  Now, with a nerf... c'mon.  We're better than we were in most editions, but we aren't top.  On stats we are 13th for win percentage, just under Adeptus Custodes.  White scars, and even DeathWatch have a better showing than us... pre nerf.


Edited by farfromsam, 14 June 2021 - 01:41 AM.


#18
oldmanlee

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They didn't win a GT before Dark Eldar came out.  Now, with a nerf... c'mon.  We're better than we were in most editions, but we aren't top.  On stats we are 13th for win percentage, just under Adeptus Custodes.  White scars, and even DeathWatch have a better showing than us... pre nerf.


Don't take this the wrong way but you seem really down on dark Angels why don't you play dark eldar or admech if you don't think dark Angels are very good now?

I'm hopeful that with the points changes you will start to see some interesting list other than the utterly boring 9 attack bikes talonmaster spam
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#19
farfromsam

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A ravenwing list was anything but boring. Being too bring to bear fire power on a fragile platform is challenging and rewarding when successful. Making sure they stay out of range for assault and securing them lanes of fire with terminators made my decisions meaningful in a way DA haven't had in a long time.

I'm not interested in those picking up those armies. I'm interested in having a chance at win games. With the last round of nerfs I want to find what works against those lists. Have any insight there Oldmanlee?

#20
Vulshra

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I'd say pure ravenwing works well. Don't focus on pure meltas and talon masters, focus on speed. RW lists regularly perform top 4 at major events, and the builds that worked there aren't hit majorly by the nerf

#21
march10k

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They didn't win a GT before Dark Eldar came out.  Now, with a nerf... c'mon.  

You're looking at the wrong data.  Which codex is tops will change over time, but it's the same PLAYERS on the top tables all the time.  If you don't have those elite players choosing to win with DA, then DA isn't going to win.  On top of that, DA is relatively more attractive to new players than some other codexes.  A lot of factors go into the stats that only superficially assign a codex to a tier.  I had a list consisting of bikes, dreads, and termies back 15 or so years ago.  It had a STEEP learning curve, but once I tweaked the list just right and cracked the code on how to play it, it ran off a 23-2 record in a time when everyone knew that DA was one of the worst 2-3 codexes.


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#22
Vulshra

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Completely agree with March. Highly mobile armies like ravenwing tend to have very low floors but very high ceilings in performance

#23
farfromsam

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Sounds good what is a list yall like against DE with 6 raiders? Usually when I play the objectives and focus on winning the game with points, they do the same thing but better. Trade units but theirs are much much cheaper.

I've had better luck being aggressive and grounding the boats if I get first turn. If I dont... well that's a different story that starts by being charged by 20 of those hellions turn one and ends being tabled by turn 4.

#24
march10k

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Sounds good what is a list yall like against DE with 6 raiders? Usually when I play the objectives and focus on winning the game with points, they do the same thing but better. Trade units but theirs are much much cheaper.

I've had better luck being aggressive and grounding the boats if I get first turn. If I dont... well that's a different story that starts by being charged by 20 of those hellions turn one and ends being tabled by turn 4.

I haven't run into 6 raider Deldar yet, so I have no wisdom on this particular cheese.  BUT... generally speaking, lists like that run into gatekeeper lists in tournament play, lists that are designed specifically to defeat their cheese, NOT to win the tournament.  As a result, they place fairly high, but rarely win anything.  Other highly competitive lists are able to cope if they run into the cheese, but aren't mousetrapped by the gatekeeper lists that are guarding the community against dominance by that cheese, so they come out on top.  I can't say whether DA has such a competitive build that can cope with 6 raiders without selling out to being a gatekeeper...so...following!


Edited by march10k, 14 June 2021 - 10:37 PM.

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#25
Vulshra

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Generally I think it's less a matter of what you bring for mono rw (because if you're bringing enough plasma to handle dg you have enough to pop raiders), but deployment and movement. The ability to turbo boost T1 and still shoot means I find sitting way back out of LoS, then boosting out to kill a few key targets and get stuck in with some main units while others go grab objectives works.

For composition, I tend to run 8 MM ABs (6 in 2 squads, 2 attached to bike squads) and bike squads chock full of plasma, with enough bikers to split into combat squads if desired. That way I have small cheepish units to throw at the enemy while shielding my TM and black knights for the inevitable counter charge

Also, rw champions eat eldar for lunch on the charge, especially if given a boost from a wl trait or aura like fury of the lion

To expound, here's something I'm tinkering with. Need to fill out 25 pts but the list should give you an idea of how I think DE can be handled


++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [87 PL, 8CP, 1,960pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Ravenwing Outrider Detachment [3CP]

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ No Force Org Slot +

Ravenwing Apothecary [6 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon

Ravenwing Champion [4 PL, 70pts]: Reliquary of the Repentant
. Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon

+ HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 2. Fury of the Lion (Aura), Bolt pistol, Heavenfall Blade, Power sword, Stratagem: Paragon of the Chapter, The Imperium's Sword, Warlord

Lieutenant(s) [8 PL, -1CP, 160pts]
. Ravenwing Talonmaster: Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

+ Elites +

Ravenwing Black Knights [18 PL, 360pts]
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Black Knight: Corvus Hammer
. Ravenwing Huntmaster: Corvus Hammer

+ Fast Attack +

Attack Bike Squad [6 PL, 180pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Attack Bike Squad [6 PL, 180pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Bike Squad [11 PL, 270pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. 3x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 3x Astartes Chainsword, 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Twin boltgun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Bike Squad [11 PL, 270pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. 3x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 3x Astartes Chainsword, 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Twin boltgun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Bike Squad [11 PL, 230pts]
. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter
. Biker Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword
. 5x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Twin boltgun

++ Total: [87 PL, 8CP, 1,960pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Edited by Vulshra, 14 June 2021 - 11:21 PM.

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