Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Intellectual property guidelines updated


  • Please log in to reply
290 replies to this topic

#276
Petitioner's City

Petitioner's City

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,903 posts
@gederas, I more objected to your hyberbole. It didn't "tank" - a better term is "disappointed" (see the excellent analysis in Forbes here - https://www.forbes.c...sts-spider-man/).

The unfortunate thing is whenever someone brings up Star Wars, the property is entirely mired in a host of subjective feelings which make it hard to discuss it even close to objectively. It is like a certain early 20th century political party, it just doesn't ever seen to help an angry nerd's argument because the situation is far more complicated - or nuanced - than the point they are making.
  • firestorm40k likes this
Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#277
NovemberIX

NovemberIX

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,092 posts
  • Location:Space City TX
  • Faction: November Warriors

... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier.  The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one. 

 As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit.  They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts.  How? I dunno.  Not a lawyer. 

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity.  All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court.  The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable."  And then that US citizen is boned.

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts.  But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once. 

 

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators.  A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators.  But I dunno.  Maybe I'm a cynic.  It's probably not going to happen again.  

 

 

 

 

They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.
 

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.


  • Gederas likes this

#278
excelite

excelite

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 122 posts

Also, it’s worth pointing out 2+Tough uses official GW art in his videos, reached out to GW legal, and they said ‘yeah man you’re fine’. Alfabusa didn’t even try to do that.


This exact lack of action of some creators make me think this is all about drama and nothing more.

All those projects are said to be “passion projects”. But let’s be honest: if you’re passionate about something, you at least try to figure out a way to kelp things going…

Yes, in that case it means you reach out to GW, find out if you need to adopt, if so you evaluate if the required changes (if any) are within your budget/capability and then either adjust or conclude that it’s not viable anymore.

This holds true, especially if you make a living from your project that feeds your family and pays your mortgage.

To me it seems that “passion” of some of the creators has gone and some projects simply turned into jobs. Just have a look at the YouTubers… quite a lot had to take a timeout in the last months to not suffer a burnout.

And adding some possible legal challenges, I can very much understand that some people just conclude that it’s not worth it.

So what factors might play a role in this decision?
To me there are three main factors:
1) the way the YouTube algorithm works
2) an ever more demanding community
3) the ip owner that updates/clarifies the rules

1) will not change… yt does not give a crap about the people and their well being… if you don’t keep up, somebody else will, and that somebody else will generate more money…

3) seems to be a tipping point, but since people don’t even bother to find a solution the “damage” has been done somewhere else

That leaves 2), us as a community:
Nowadays people love to take offense by any tidbit and blow it out of proportion. We are not entitled to anything, but behave like we are.

In this context, I’m looking at the people asking for a statement about the changed/updated guidelines. This simply is not going to happen. This is nothing that needs to addressed to the general public. If you are using the ip, you simply need to comply. If you’re unsure if you do or need to adjust: reach out and make sure you’re compliant (like 2+ tough did)

Just have a look at the sodaz situation. It was for his best interest to take the offer and be hired. Professionally and probably personal as well. If that means that we will not get any more videos for free (and let that sink in… it’s free videos… nothing more) so be it. It’s a community member making a decision for his well-being. That is nothing of our concern and none of us have a voice to raise or take part in that decision. It’s his and his alone.

Over in the pricing thread (I think it was there) somebody compared the pricing strategy with an abusive relationship. While some of GW’s decisions are not consumer friendly, they are rational and probably went through some rational decision making progress.

I think the real abusive part here is a small but very vocal part of the community (like the people that harassed sodaz). And we all need to sit down, rethink our engagement and make some adjustments.

If you don’t like what a creator or GW is doing feel free to voice it, but accept that there are a lot of people who have no issue with the the same thing like me/you.

Sure we can organize an orchestrated boycott and if it actually reaches a critical mass it might succeed, but think about the consequences first. A lot of things like changes to the way an IP is legally defended is not up to the owner but the external factor of legal law. And this will not change due to some ruckus of a niche of a niche community. And be aware that GW is supply constrained (like they stated in their annual financial) and not demand constrained.
So you might want to do yourself a favor and lower your hope for success.

So what can/should we do?

I think we need to understand the following:
- the ip guidelines are simply a needed update that was necessary from a business standpoint due to the introduction of warhammer+ and not a new idea of somebody to create a “chilling effect” or something else

- if we want parts of our community to further work with the ip and enjoy some 3rd party content, we should encourage the creators to get in touch and get strings straightened out to comply - instead of going into full extremist mode, take a step back think about the reasoning (especially for business das implications, since you are dealing with a multinational corporation) and be constructive instead of toxic about changes.

- we should stop being offended by everything that’s not even close to be our business and we have to understand that there are things that we are not entitled to participate in (like the ip updates - that directly matter to creators - but for us it’s only indirect)

- we need to stop forcing our opinions on other people and create more positive more understanding community in general (this does not mean becoming accepting of all and everything) - not everything you have an issue with matters to me and vice versa. (As with harassing sodaz and such)
  • Cactus, Wolf Guard Einar, Shinn and 4 others like this

#279
BluegrassGamer

BluegrassGamer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 124 posts

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.


It’s unfortunate, but I believe you’re still wrong on a number of points.

1) Extradition. - I’m not sure why you’ve brought brought up extradition. Extradition is a matter of criminal law. It specifically applies when a nation’s criminal court - we’ll say US, for this example - has indicted a foreign national and wants that foreign national turned over for trial or punishment. We’re talking about IP infringement and trademark laws. Those are civil matters.

2) Legal reciprocity. - Legal reciprocity applied to both civil AND criminal matters. The US Department of State says as much on their travel website. If you get taken to court in a foreign country for a civil matter and the foreign court rules against you? There absolutely are mechanics to ensure that judgement is enforced by the US legal system.

3) Forum shopping. - GW absolutely can forum shop. This happens when multiple courts have jurisdiction over an issue. Say someone in the US starts infringing on GW’s IP. As the plaintiff in the case, GW gets to choose where they take the case. If they think the US laws favor them, they could file in the US courts. If the UK laws favor them, the. GW can choose to file in a UK court of law.
  • Inquisitor lorr, Wolf Guard Einar and Joe like this

#280
Marshal Rohr

Marshal Rohr

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 17,956 posts
  • Location:Georgia
  • Faction: 7th Terran Regiment

Also, it’s worth pointing out 2+Tough uses official GW art in his videos, reached out to GW legal, and they said ‘yeah man you’re fine’. Alfabusa didn’t even try to do that.

This exact lack of action of some creators make me think this is all about drama and nothing more.

All those projects are said to be “passion projects”. But let’s be honest: if you’re passionate about something, you at least try to figure out a way to kelp things going…

Yes, in that case it means you reach out to GW, find out if you need to adopt, if so you evaluate if the required changes (if any) are within your budget/capability and then either adjust or conclude that it’s not viable anymore.

This holds true, especially if you make a living from your project that feeds your family and pays your mortgage.

To me it seems that “passion” of some of the creators has gone and some projects simply turned into jobs. Just have a look at the YouTubers… quite a lot had to take a timeout in the last months to not suffer a burnout.

And adding some possible legal challenges, I can very much understand that some people just conclude that it’s not worth it.

So what factors might play a role in this decision?
To me there are three main factors:
1) the way the YouTube algorithm works
2) an ever more demanding community
3) the ip owner that updates/clarifies the rules

1) will not change… yt does not give a crap about the people and their well being… if you don’t keep up, somebody else will, and that somebody else will generate more money…

3) seems to be a tipping point, but since people don’t even bother to find a solution the “damage” has been done somewhere else

That leaves 2), us as a community:
Nowadays people love to take offense by any tidbit and blow it out of proportion. We are not entitled to anything, but behave like we are.

In this context, I’m looking at the people asking for a statement about the changed/updated guidelines. This simply is not going to happen. This is nothing that needs to addressed to the general public. If you are using the ip, you simply need to comply. If you’re unsure if you do or need to adjust: reach out and make sure you’re compliant (like 2+ tough did)

Just have a look at the sodaz situation. It was for his best interest to take the offer and be hired. Professionally and probably personal as well. If that means that we will not get any more videos for free (and let that sink in… it’s free videos… nothing more) so be it. It’s a community member making a decision for his well-being. That is nothing of our concern and none of us have a voice to raise or take part in that decision. It’s his and his alone.

Over in the pricing thread (I think it was there) somebody compared the pricing strategy with an abusive relationship. While some of GW’s decisions are not consumer friendly, they are rational and probably went through some rational decision making progress.

I think the real abusive part here is a small but very vocal part of the community (like the people that harassed sodaz). And we all need to sit down, rethink our engagement and make some adjustments.

If you don’t like what a creator or GW is doing feel free to voice it, but accept that there are a lot of people who have no issue with the the same thing like me/you.

Sure we can organize an orchestrated boycott and if it actually reaches a critical mass it might succeed, but think about the consequences first. A lot of things like changes to the way an IP is legally defended is not up to the owner but the external factor of legal law. And this will not change due to some ruckus of a niche of a niche community. And be aware that GW is supply constrained (like they stated in their annual financial) and not demand constrained.
So you might want to do yourself a favor and lower your hope for success.

So what can/should we do?

I think we need to understand the following:
- the ip guidelines are simply a needed update that was necessary from a business standpoint due to the introduction of warhammer+ and not a new idea of somebody to create a “chilling effect” or something else

- if we want parts of our community to further work with the ip and enjoy some 3rd party content, we should encourage the creators to get in touch and get strings straightened out to comply - instead of going into full extremist mode, take a step back think about the reasoning (especially for business das implications, since you are dealing with a multinational corporation) and be constructive instead of toxic about changes.

- we should stop being offended by everything that’s not even close to be our business and we have to understand that there are things that we are not entitled to participate in (like the ip updates - that directly matter to creators - but for us it’s only indirect)

- we need to stop forcing our opinions on other people and create more positive more understanding community in general (this does not mean becoming accepting of all and everything) - not everything you have an issue with matters to me and vice versa. (As with harassing sodaz and such)
The thing about ‘boycotting GW’ is that it’s this ever present white noise in the background of being a 40K fan perpetuated by losers that either can’t afford models or don’t buy them anyway because they only like 40K for the lore. It doesn’t matter what the issue is. They say boycott when Indomitus sells out, or an edition changes, or a codex is updated, or something goes last chance to buy. The issue is those people talking about boycotting aren’t really fans and aren’t engaged in the hobby unless it’s to complain. There has never been and never will be a critical mass to boycotters specifically because they were never involved in the hobby to a significant degree anyway.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 01 August 2021 - 12:23 PM.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

+++The Iterators Guild+++

A Group for Lore Minded Hobbyists and World Building Projects

 


#281
Rik Lightstar

Rik Lightstar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,468 posts
  • Location:Stevenage
  • Faction: White Scars, Mantis Warriors
There's not yet been a successful boycott of Amazon or Starbucks both of which have far sketchier tax affairs and corporate behaviours and are far easier to present in an unflattering light.

The idea that there's a groundswell of nerd rage against GW in any meaningful sense is pretty laughable, this turns up as this vague background murmur every few years from a tiny minority of people who are actually involved in the hobby, and has done for the last 30 years at least.

What I've seen in the course of over three decades happening pretty consistently is a handful of the disgruntled players find a different game to play for a 6-24 months then come back to GW stuff because they want to play more often. A few of the other grumblers leave for good or for a long period. The remainder of them hang around but moan about it really only angry at themselves for not having the drive to take a break from the hobby.

By far the loudest voices I tend to come across online however are the rage filled "lapsed hobbyists" no longer doing anything in the hobby except complaining about the actions of a company they don't buy from. The screeching, wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop for in a week or two, for about a month, and then the next big whinge-fest will begin.

Rik
  • Juggernut, Wolf Guard Einar, Raktra and 1 other like this

The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves, 
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
.

 

Check out my White Scars here

Find me on Instagram here


#282
excelite

excelite

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 122 posts

Also, it’s worth pointing out 2+Tough uses official GW art in his videos, reached out to GW legal, and they said ‘yeah man you’re fine’. Alfabusa didn’t even try to do that.

This exact lack of action of some creators make me think this is all about drama and nothing more.

All those projects are said to be “passion projects”. But let’s be honest: if you’re passionate about something, you at least try to figure out a way to kelp things going…

Yes, in that case it means you reach out to GW, find out if you need to adopt, if so you evaluate if the required changes (if any) are within your budget/capability and then either adjust or conclude that it’s not viable anymore.

This holds true, especially if you make a living from your project that feeds your family and pays your mortgage.

To me it seems that “passion” of some of the creators has gone and some projects simply turned into jobs. Just have a look at the YouTubers… quite a lot had to take a timeout in the last months to not suffer a burnout.

And adding some possible legal challenges, I can very much understand that some people just conclude that it’s not worth it.

So what factors might play a role in this decision?
To me there are three main factors:
1) the way the YouTube algorithm works
2) an ever more demanding community
3) the ip owner that updates/clarifies the rules

1) will not change… yt does not give a crap about the people and their well being… if you don’t keep up, somebody else will, and that somebody else will generate more money…

3) seems to be a tipping point, but since people don’t even bother to find a solution the “damage” has been done somewhere else

That leaves 2), us as a community:
Nowadays people love to take offense by any tidbit and blow it out of proportion. We are not entitled to anything, but behave like we are.

In this context, I’m looking at the people asking for a statement about the changed/updated guidelines. This simply is not going to happen. This is nothing that needs to addressed to the general public. If you are using the ip, you simply need to comply. If you’re unsure if you do or need to adjust: reach out and make sure you’re compliant (like 2+ tough did)

Just have a look at the sodaz situation. It was for his best interest to take the offer and be hired. Professionally and probably personal as well. If that means that we will not get any more videos for free (and let that sink in… it’s free videos… nothing more) so be it. It’s a community member making a decision for his well-being. That is nothing of our concern and none of us have a voice to raise or take part in that decision. It’s his and his alone.

Over in the pricing thread (I think it was there) somebody compared the pricing strategy with an abusive relationship. While some of GW’s decisions are not consumer friendly, they are rational and probably went through some rational decision making progress.

I think the real abusive part here is a small but very vocal part of the community (like the people that harassed sodaz). And we all need to sit down, rethink our engagement and make some adjustments.

If you don’t like what a creator or GW is doing feel free to voice it, but accept that there are a lot of people who have no issue with the the same thing like me/you.

Sure we can organize an orchestrated boycott and if it actually reaches a critical mass it might succeed, but think about the consequences first. A lot of things like changes to the way an IP is legally defended is not up to the owner but the external factor of legal law. And this will not change due to some ruckus of a niche of a niche community. And be aware that GW is supply constrained (like they stated in their annual financial) and not demand constrained.
So you might want to do yourself a favor and lower your hope for success.

So what can/should we do?

I think we need to understand the following:
- the ip guidelines are simply a needed update that was necessary from a business standpoint due to the introduction of warhammer+ and not a new idea of somebody to create a “chilling effect” or something else

- if we want parts of our community to further work with the ip and enjoy some 3rd party content, we should encourage the creators to get in touch and get strings straightened out to comply - instead of going into full extremist mode, take a step back think about the reasoning (especially for business das implications, since you are dealing with a multinational corporation) and be constructive instead of toxic about changes.

- we should stop being offended by everything that’s not even close to be our business and we have to understand that there are things that we are not entitled to participate in (like the ip updates - that directly matter to creators - but for us it’s only indirect)

- we need to stop forcing our opinions on other people and create more positive more understanding community in general (this does not mean becoming accepting of all and everything) - not everything you have an issue with matters to me and vice versa. (As with harassing sodaz and such)
The thing about ‘boycotting GW’ is that it’s this ever present white noise in the background of being a 40K fan perpetuated by losers that either can’t afford models or don’t buy them anyway because they only like 40K for the lore. It doesn’t matter what the issue is. They say boycott when Indomitus sells out, or an edition changes, or a codex is updated, or something goes last chance to buy. The issue is those people talking about boycotting aren’t really fans and aren’t engaged in the hobby unless it’s to complain. There has never been and never will be a critical mass to boycotters specifically because they were never involved in the hobby to a significant degree anyway.
I know, that’s why I said that whoever feels like it should do themself a favor a lower their hope for success ;)

But hey, everybody should do as they want… especially if that means I have a better chance to get one of those killteam launch boxes 😂

Edited by excelite, 01 August 2021 - 01:57 PM.

  • Marshal Rohr likes this

#283
Marshal Rohr

Marshal Rohr

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 17,956 posts
  • Location:Georgia
  • Faction: 7th Terran Regiment
Good point. Everyone should boycott GW in August. They can’t keep getting away with this.
  • matcap86, Skywrath and excelite like this

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

+++The Iterators Guild+++

A Group for Lore Minded Hobbyists and World Building Projects

 


#284
MARK0SIAN

MARK0SIAN

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,024 posts

Good point. Everyone should boycott GW in August. They can’t keep getting away with this.


I think it will work best if we have a two stage boycott with the second one around the time they launch the heresy box set! :)
  • Marshal Rohr, matcap86 and excelite like this

gallery_86689_11936_21517.pngsml_gallery_48988_16053_22349.png


#285
Reinhard

Reinhard

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 4,662 posts

Sarcasm sense is tingling


  • MARK0SIAN likes this

#286
Vazzy

Vazzy

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,605 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Faction: Shattered Suns


... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier. The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one.

As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit. They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts. How? I dunno. Not a lawyer.

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity. All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court. The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable." And then that US citizen is boned.

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts. But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once.

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators. A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators. But I dunno. Maybe I'm a cynic. It's probably not going to happen again.


They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.

I mean, as an attorney, that’s wrong. As GW does business in the US and is incorporated here I assume, they certainly have standing in any US court. And should they opt to file in the UK and win, there is significant precedence of US courses looking at foreign judgments and affirming them against US plaintiffs. Especially as both the UK and the US are under common law systems.

Personally, I think GW has been far too lenient in pursuing claims in the past. There’s a reason Herman courts basically said step it up or your IP may be at risk in our courts. Warhammer + certainly was a factor as well.

Truthfully I’m not sad to see TTS get the axe. It may have been an entry point but the a lot of the people who came into the hobby via TTS were meme spouting people who didn’t know the actual lore and it was infuriating.
  • Inquisitor lorr, Juggernut, sitnam and 4 others like this

#287
chapter master 454

chapter master 454

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,357 posts
  • Location:Fife
  • Faction: Angels of Justice

In other words, the entire thing is a Tyranid vs. Ork Waaagh with a chaos invasion on top of a genestealer cult uprising, it is messier than we can imagine.

 

However if precedents are to be set then I want to have one statement made clear:

 

GW are setting a precedent to how they treat fans and their community.

 

I just find this whole thing a massive shockwave still being felt from the whole Chapter House Heresy, where now community cannot be left unfettered. I suppose a tragedy of the commons was bound to happen the fields have been overpicked to GWs annoyance. Just comical however, they want their piece of the pie but what they will get will be nowhere near the level we have seen in the past and over time, that well will dry. Die. With hope it will flourish again.

 

Messy but I think there is other aspects to point out and again, my italics statement is what I want to draw to here, GW are doing things that do NOT engender good will; whether it is within their right or not to do so isn't in question here. I stand upon this hill, GW are falling back to bad habits and hurting their greatest asset and don't realise it. Were Alvabusa and the like making money off GW IP? I suppose we cannot argue the big yes there. Was GW losing money from their work? No...not until Warhammer+ came along. And even then, my stance is the same as it is with piracy: you cannot prove that Alvabusa making TTS once every year or two (his schedule is horrific) would of hurt Warhammer+ success.

If anything I posit that GW doing this move has actively hurt and harmed the reputation of Warhammer+ which has already garnered a rather turmoil laden lead-up and nothing of it is out yet or even available. Not a good start.

 

Just to close I again present my core issue:

GW are setting a precedent to how they treat fans and their community.


  • Azekai, Gederas and Reclusiarch Krieg like this

I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#288
Snazzy

Snazzy

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 445 posts
  • Location:King of Prussia, PA
  • Faction: SoH, DIY Fists


May not hurt GW in the short term but they aren't exactly sowing seeds here. You don't want to disenfranchise existing customers because word of mouth is really how things like warhammer spreads. If you get people starting a thread of dissent, it begins to unravel the entire thing. Not immediately but you must NOT take swings at your community under any circumstance unless you have the most dire need to.

 

In this instance, this is just like with the removal of ePubs for the new warhammer app: Force. They thing they can force a new product and it will be instantly liked because "it was so popular" to which, in a very humble and I must be in some form cathartic here; I will stomp your rib cage out through your throat you coffin dodging old timers. Ahem, it is a draconic abnd backwards approach and has NEVER benefited any company and in fact has from my perspective (which is limited as a consumer) just cost them money not just in enacting the policies but from losing customer base with no meaningful gains.

 

Honestly curious as to how they weighed the option of "being complete monsters to the fan-base" against "let them be" in terms of profits. There must be something ether seriously off kilter in how I and many others see things OR there is something extremely wrong in the mental functions of GW.

Not mincing words here, it is baffling really.

 

I think we can all admit that GW is smarter than their critics, at least in terms of their survival.  GW has been going down for years, according to the internet.  They will be fine and this has just created another round of haters.  

 

The thing people don't seem to be siting is that GW, by being generous to offer survival to these creators in house, or a friendly, not-yet legal threat are being far more generous than is needed.  They don't even need to take this policy to court.  They can raise hell with Youtube, Paypall, Patreon and other platforms to make sure that creators either cannot post content, or make money.  They could have easily nuked every 40k related site without a single court case anywhere.


  • StraightSilver and BluegrassGamer like this

Sons of Horus

Corso Legion (DIY Fists)

 

Builder of 5 previous SM armies.  Power Armor is addictive.

 

gallery_94427_16628_16366.png


#289
Azekai

Azekai

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,171 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Faction: Warp Locusts, Traitor Guard

 

 

... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier. The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one.

As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit. They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts. How? I dunno. Not a lawyer.

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity. All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court. The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable." And then that US citizen is boned.

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts. But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once.

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators. A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators. But I dunno. Maybe I'm a cynic. It's probably not going to happen again.


They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.

I mean, as an attorney, that’s wrong. As GW does business in the US and is incorporated here I assume, they certainly have standing in any US court. And should they opt to file in the UK and win, there is significant precedence of US courses looking at foreign judgments and affirming them against US plaintiffs. Especially as both the UK and the US are under common law systems.

Personally, I think GW has been far too lenient in pursuing claims in the past. There’s a reason Herman courts basically said step it up or your IP may be at risk in our courts. Warhammer + certainly was a factor as well.

Truthfully I’m not sad to see TTS get the axe. It may have been an entry point but the a lot of the people who came into the hobby via TTS were meme spouting people who didn’t know the actual lore and it was infuriating.

 

Anyone who likes this gatekeeping garbage is just wrongheaded. I don't care much for that silly TTS stuff either, but you know who mostly likes it? Younger people. Heaven forbid they tell silly 40k jokes.


Edited by Azekai, 02 August 2021 - 05:48 AM.

  • Noserenda, Roomsky and Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch like this

Corruption is our armor. Infection is our weapon. Immortality is our reward.
 

gallery_48988_13169_3872.pngETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Chaos_LATD.jCall_of_Chaos_11_Banner_01e.jpggallery_30308_9518_1272.jpggallery_30308_9518_1551.pnggallery_63428_7083_8312.png3DrnTQ5.png

#290
Vazzy

Vazzy

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,605 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Faction: Shattered Suns


... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier. The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one.

As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit. They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts. How? I dunno. Not a lawyer.

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity. All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court. The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable." And then that US citizen is boned.

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts. But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once.

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators. A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators. But I dunno. Maybe I'm a cynic. It's probably not going to happen again.

They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.
I mean, as an attorney, that’s wrong. As GW does business in the US and is incorporated here I assume, they certainly have standing in any US court. And should they opt to file in the UK and win, there is significant precedence of US courses looking at foreign judgments and affirming them against US plaintiffs. Especially as both the UK and the US are under common law systems.

Personally, I think GW has been far too lenient in pursuing claims in the past. There’s a reason Herman courts basically said step it up or your IP may be at risk in our courts. Warhammer + certainly was a factor as well.

Truthfully I’m not sad to see TTS get the axe. It may have been an entry point but the a lot of the people who came into the hobby via TTS were meme spouting people who didn’t know the actual lore and it was infuriating.
Anyone who likes this gatekeeping garbage is just wrongheaded. I don't care much for that silly TTS stuff either, but you know who mostly likes it? Younger people. Heaven forbid they tell silly 40k jokes.

I mean I am a young person mate, so take that as you will. Didn’t say they weren’t real fans, I was just personally frustrated by people telling me I was wrong about lore based on “silly 40k jokes”. Call it whatever you want, but I was just saying I didn’t care for it personally.
  • Juggernut, sitnam and matcap86 like this

#291
Reclusiarch Krieg

Reclusiarch Krieg

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,101 posts
  • Location:The Phoenix City That Has Seen War
  • Faction: Black Templars

In other words, the entire thing is a Tyranid vs. Ork Waaagh with a chaos invasion on top of a genestealer cult uprising, it is messier than we can imagine.

 

However if precedents are to be set then I want to have one statement made clear:

 

GW are setting a precedent to how they treat fans and their community.

 

I just find this whole thing a massive shockwave still being felt from the whole Chapter House Heresy, where now community cannot be left unfettered. I suppose a tragedy of the commons was bound to happen the fields have been overpicked to GWs annoyance. Just comical however, they want their piece of the pie but what they will get will be nowhere near the level we have seen in the past and over time, that well will dry. Die. With hope it will flourish again.

 

Messy but I think there is other aspects to point out and again, my italics statement is what I want to draw to here, GW are doing things that do NOT engender good will; whether it is within their right or not to do so isn't in question here. I stand upon this hill, GW are falling back to bad habits and hurting their greatest asset and don't realise it. Were Alvabusa and the like making money off GW IP? I suppose we cannot argue the big yes there. Was GW losing money from their work? No...not until Warhammer+ came along. And even then, my stance is the same as it is with piracy: you cannot prove that Alvabusa making TTS once every year or two (his schedule is horrific) would of hurt Warhammer+ success.

If anything I posit that GW doing this move has actively hurt and harmed the reputation of Warhammer+ which has already garnered a rather turmoil laden lead-up and nothing of it is out yet or even available. Not a good start.

 

Just to close I again present my core issue:

GW are setting a precedent to how they treat fans and their community.

Yep, this. All of this.


  • Eternal Despair likes this




2 user(s) are reading this topic

1 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


    TheWeepingAngel