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B&C Support for Local Gaming


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#1
momosgarage

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I started this on another thread but go no responses, so here I go again. Could the B&C be a clearing house for groups across the US to form not-for-profit clubs. Imagine being able to float the groups hobby expenses, gaming tables and large model purchases tax free.

501c(7) — Social and Recreational Clubs:

http://www.tax-exemp...ofit-clubs.com/

http://www.irs.gov/p.../eotopicg80.pdf

http://www.unclefed....L/p5570404.html

http://en.wikipedia....c)_organization
 
=][= The software keeps changing the c in parenthesis to a copyright symbol. Here's the link (cut and paste into your browser):
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization
=][=

I know about the real details of initiating this process because I belong to dog training clubs that do the exact same thing LEGALLY; playing tabletop games shouldn't be any different. Its almost like the above should be done INSTEAD of folks trying to open small businesses (i.e. retail gaming stores). Its nearly impossible to be profitable selling this kind of stuff retail these days.

...and if someone was really ambitious, maybe even a not-for-profit membership only TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT?

D&D guys are doing something like the above, why not us?

http://dnd.meetup.co.../dc/washington/

Does anyone know of a group doing this somewhere in the USA?

Edited by Brother Tyler, 17 July 2014 - 12:31 AM.
Wikipedia article link fixed > (c) to replace the ©; and topic title changed to reflect shift in subject-matter.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#2
Brother Tyler

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I'm interested in seeing the discussion that takes place.

Something very important to consider is the fact that the membership of the Bolter & Chainsword is international in nature, with the site owner residing in the United Kingdom. Those two facts have an impact on the discussion.

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#3
GeoWolf

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I won't pretend to know what you are talking about Momo, but I am interested none-the-less. I will be reading over the links you posted in more detail so that I might be able to get a better picture of what you are proposing.

#4
momosgarage

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My topic look like its dying a horrible death...Sort of, just low "browsing traffic"

Here are some more examples of the benfits:

1) My dog clubs hosts AKC dog trails which are paid for by entry fees. Entry fees come from both members and non-members of the club and club members pay a discounted entry fee. At the end of the day the overhead expenses of the trials hosted by the club don't cost any of the club members money out of pocket, which includes leased space to host the event, trophies and prizes. I feel this type of set up is directly transferable to 40K and the best part is that the club does not need to collect and pay taxes. In fact they are even allowed to draw a small profit as long as the procceeds for the year does not exceed $50,000 USD and is no more that 35% of their total gross revenue.

2) The collected fees from the trial are also used to pay the club house lease. The members pay dues, but essentially get it back in the form of some free services and equipment. For example the club sells some equipment to the genreal public at a discount and members pay no more than cost. My assumption is that a 40K club "could" buy from GW at the dealer rate in bulk, sell some to the public as long as it no more than 35% of the $50,000 yearly gross revenue cap and give back "club members dues" in th form of merchandise.

3) If geographically separate clubs all worked together, buying at the dealer rate from GW and used the B&C as a way to "pool" puchases across clubs, the discount would be astronomical and the resale of "some leftover models" for profit (on ebay, craigslist, etc.) by the indivudual clubs could be a source on constant tax free revenue. The reason unrealted clubs would "pool" purchases is to not ever exceed the $50,000/35% limit on resale and to keep unit cost down as much as possible by buying huge quantities all at once.

The problems:

1) Every club will need an honest business person to help start up and keep things going. We are talking about dealing with United States IRS and thats nothing to fool with. Basically if someone can't run a retail hobby shop in the black consistantly, there is no way they could run a non-profit club.

2) No one can ever try to "skim" a salary out of this enterprise. Its tempting and very doable, but would be in DIRECT violation of the IRS rules for running 501c(7). Essentially, it will be very time consuming for some of the clubs members, without pay.

3) The club would need a VERY decicated member base. My dog clubs have dozens of people that have been active in the club for decades. They trust each other, have a long fraternal history and would DO ANYTHING to keep the club alive and healthy.

I truly belive there are segments of the 40K community that could really benefit from this. The question is, who has the resources and the gumption to get the ball rolling and make the first step. Once thats done a roadmap can be made for everyone else to follow, a "startup handbook" of sorts. Dog clubs have been doing this for a very long time and it shows in the continued growth of new dog clubs that form every year across the US, but on the other hand there are plenty of people for newcommers to turn to for guidence on the "how to" of day to day operations within a 501c(7).

Once again, ALL of the above is LEGAL.

Maybe this could be a side enterprise for existing hobby stores? This might be tough however because there would be possible "conflict of interest" if the retail store owner is also the President of the club. A work around could possibly be for the retail store owner to be the club treasurer and have loyal customer or employee be a president? I am not so sure about this last part because I see many issues that could be construed as a conflict of interest.

Edited by momosgarage, 11 October 2011 - 03:36 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#5
Grey Mage

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Im not doubting its legal, but what if we have a club in dublin that wants in on this kind of thing- or kenya?

How would making this an international non-profit organization affect things? Would sending models to australia count as foreign aid in a similar vein to the sending of care packages to foreign church kids does? Is that something thats even possible or is there a required 'home country' and if there is a home country, wich ones are best to look at for this kind of thing. IE if we base this out of britain, say because of membership and more relaxed tax laws, how does that affect members in the USA? Australia? South Africa? Chile?

What exactly is considered under expenses? Cost of models/paints/glue/etc? Shipping? If my club has 75 members and we need a larger hall are we going to get a larger slice of the pie to pay for it- is it based on membership or donation level? $1000 dollars a month buys less in the US than it does in Kenya, but adjusting for local values seems like a can of worms that could kill a project like this.

That being said- whats the difference between doing this on a nation-wide level and doing this on a local level? Why cant the guys in say... san francisco just do this themselves for the local community- or perhaps several sub communities- instead of joining a national/international group? Whats in it for them?

Would there need to be a contract of some sort with individual members? How would distribution of 'supplies' work?

And finally: while the B+C does have an area for clubs/communities/get-togethers the traffic is pretty low. In what ways would you want to utilize the forum for this endeavor? Would the B+C be collecting money? If so, would the site itself be considered an 'expense' for an (inter)national NPO?
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#6
momosgarage

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Grey Mage, I'll address what I can:

How would making this an international non-profit organization affect things?


I know the B&C has members all over the globe, but I simply don't have that kind of broad tax law knowledge. I will have to say at this point we should strictly be discussing regional non-profit and the collectives where they would share GW and supply orders. I personally can can only comment on USA tax law.

What exactly is considered under expenses? Cost of models/paints/glue/etc? Shipping? If my club has 75 members and we need a larger hall are we going to get a larger slice of the pie to pay for it- is it based on membership or donation level?


I should have been clearer. Expenses like renting out a hall or leasing space etc would have to be handled locally by each individual club strictly for its members only. I don't know of any way to share expenses like this on an international scale. The pooling aspect of my idea is strictly to be used to order supplies and models in bulks and to market/organize events across different non-profits that are near each other geographically. I hoped it would be obvious that geographically and financially separate clubs would need to attend the others tournments/events in addition to pooling orders for suppies and models. I don't want to get deep into the details of what and how to expense and report the IRS at this point, but here is a link to the search engine on the 990 tax forms which the non-profit clubs need to fill out every year for the IRS. You can look up any non-profit in the USA and thier expenses listed on the 990 form here:

http://foundationcen...ders/990finder/

Also another example I know of is the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. When you join a local GSDCA club, the total membership fee includes money for your local club and the national club. If the B&C was the parent non-profit, I suppose the local clubs could collect the both the B&C fee and thier own. However in the United States a big club like the GSDCA, while a 501c(7), is following a different model than the one I am suggesting because they bring in more than $50,000 USD a year. Once you get to that level you need a real accountant, carry insurance and have a lawyer on retainer.

That being said- whats the difference between doing this on a nation-wide level and doing this on a local level? Why cant the guys in say... san francisco just do this themselves for the local community- or perhaps several sub communities- instead of joining a national/international group? Whats in it for them?


This is a good point. I was not trying to figure out an exact way for the clubs to communicate at this point, just the concept. However with that said, this is where the B&C comes into play. Clubs that are geographically close to one another need a way to coordinate purchases and market events held at thier clubhouses/facilities. They also would need a way to put thier club member order lists together in order to buy in bulk from GW and other suppliers. These are the two areas where the B&C would be a vital part in fostering the cooperation between the clubs in thier local geographic areas.

Would there need to be a contract of some sort with individual members? How would distribution of 'supplies' work?


I asssume this would be pretty easy and yes, a hypothetical "Universal GW order contract" should be simple and very clear. Lets say you pay a membership fee of $500 a year, you would then make your list, as an individual club member, of $500 worth of GW goods to be ordered by the club at a designated time during the fiscal year. In order to save money all members would just place one big order through the clubs Tax ID all at once at the "GW dealer rates", which would be available to club members to view before they make thier order selections (everyone in the club should know the wholesale prices and minimum order amounts set by GW). The reason why including other clubs would be important is to further reduce the "dealer rate" per item. So instead of one club ordering $5,000 USD of GW goods once a year, a dozen clubs pool and order $60,000 USD worth of GW product once a year. I have not looked at GWs dealer rates in quite some time, but I assume the discount would be worthwhile on a $5,000+ order.

In what ways would you want to utilize the forum for this endeavor? Would the B+C be collecting money? If so, would the site itself be considered an 'expense' for an (inter)national NPO?


No, the B&C is vital to getting individual non-profit club leaders constantly talking to one another, then organizing the pooling of GW orders and making sure everyone always knows who is holding an upcomming torunament (with entry fee, date, location and prizes). Also the B&C could store the torunament "leader board" and a whole bunch of other statistics that GW doesn't track anymore (GW has not done this since the Rogue Trader Tournamnet Days). I'm betting that these services alone would qualify the B&C to become some type of European non-profit, but like I said I only know US tax law.

Or perhaps ambitiously, the B&C could be a non-profit that helps other start non-profit clubs all over the globe?

Edited by momosgarage, 11 October 2011 - 06:26 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#7
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I see one very big hurdle to this endeavor: GW.

While I can see the point at what you are getting at, and while it is a worthy idea, it seems to me to be a rough made one. Granted you have just put it up for others to see and I will not harp on you for it. Bravo on what you have done thus far.

Back to the point: Somehow I don't see GW taking this in stride. Look at the current trend that has been set with the whole shipping embargo, not to mention the IP hounds they have set loose. The money that would be spent to reach the purchase amount would be a very welcome boost to their sales figures I can only assume, but I don't thik that we would be able to sell anything like you said in the example you gave. I get the feeling they would take a dim view on it, that is unless we are selling at MSRP, not to mention the individual orders for members at the discounted price. And as Grey Mage said, all of that is just thinking about the USA, What happens when we look at this internationally? I think we may hit that shipping/selling/summoning wierdness...

Just wanted to bring a poor mans view to this and ask questions that might sound smart. :P Again I freely admit to not knowing any more about US taxes than what I do yearly, but I just had to say that.

#8
momosgarage

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And as Grey Mage said, all of that is just thinking about the USA, What happens when we look at this internationally? I think we may hit that shipping/selling/summoning wierdness...


Let me clarify this point, it seems to have come up twice, in a way. I don't think the B&C should handle the bulk orders, thats up to each individual club. However the B&C should be the clearing house for the individual clubs to link up, then combine thier orders and negotiate off the B&C. The B&C should also be the place where events and tournaments are posted, so geographically different clubs can easily suppport one another. The B&C is the hub where clubs will communicate, not where they will conduct business. Thats why people will need to form their own individual "less than $50,000 revenue" local non-profit clubs. It eases the tax issue by a huge magin. But the B&C can be the means to unify those indivdual clubs into one big cooperating voice that can make informed decisions, take community action and make nessasary compromises when needed, eyes open.

but I don't thik that we would be able to sell anything like you said in the example you gave.


Does anyone have a link to a current GW reseller agreement/contract? That would explain a lot. All I see is the application, which doesn't tell me anything:

http://www.games-wor...Application.pdf

Here is an older topic on the another board:

http://www.heresy-on...ead.php?t=36552.

If I can see the current rules, I can make a better assesment of where the loopholes are and where the problem areas are. Fulfilling GWs requirements for a deep discount on bulk purchases and getting the minis to the club buyers at the discounted rate seems possible if I read things right.

To get on my soapbox for a minute:

By forming organized, long-term, non-profit clubs, comprised of serious, long-standing members from the current and past gaming communities we can take back some consumer power by purchasing in this way while using US tax code to our advantage. What I am proposing will result in gaming clubs with thier own non-retail floor space, tables, supplies and discounted minis for all those willing to make a long term financial and social commitment to thier individual club (ever heard of the Shriners or American Legion?). Basically instead of using the $500-$1000 a year that many of us already spend on GW goods at retail prices, that money could instead be put into a club with a commited community working together. I say that would be better for everyone who plans on playing this game long term. To take it even further having these kinds of etablished and recognized organizations may give tabletop gamers an actual voice that GW will have to listen to. Right now we are just a mob of unorganized customers hiding behind our screen names making rants. These kind of official clubs can change all that.

In fact my preliminary research says a 501c(7) organization can own STOCKS under its own coporate tax ID. I hope you see where I am going here (i.e. stock holding clubs, with voting blocks all over the USA; the B&C can possibly do this one with the rest following suit after a template for precedure is developed).

The trick is getting a small group to make the sacrafice and get the ball rolling for others to follow. However, at this stage I am putting the feelers out to the B&C for opinions and to get feedback from similar experiences. If done right the B&C can collect member dues and pay wages to "chat hosts/moderators" and have a board of directors with small salaries. Its a worthwhile enterprise, since this community is established and aurthorative in a way.

Greymage, I had some time to think about your question:

That being said- whats the difference between doing this on a nation-wide level and doing this on a local level?


The B&C would be the international non-profit that provides guidence and networking for the small local clubs, just like in my GSDCA example. The total local club dues individuals would pay includes both thier "local dues" and B&C's "international Club dues". The club treasuer would collect the dues of its members and send off the amount that is set aside direclty to the B&C's tresuer who then deposits it in the B&C's non-profit account with its own separate tx ID.

Edited by momosgarage, 12 October 2011 - 06:18 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#9
GeoWolf

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Now it is my turn to clarify. I'm sorry Momo, I didn't mean to imply that the BnC should get involved with the ordering, but rather I agree with what you have said about the clubs doing the ordering. What I meant was what would happen if the clubs ordered the way you are saying. Let me try an example and see if that makes any more sense...

5 clubs decide that it is time to do the yearly order. Utilizing the BnC they find each other, figure out a good time to submit the orders and how they want to lump all five into a single larger order for the benefit of discounts. But now we find out that 2 clubs are in the US, 1 in the UK, 1 in Canada and 1 in AUS. Aside from having to figure out how the differences in the value of currency, how do you think that a split order like this would work as it originates from other countries as well? I personally don't know how that classifies.

Maybe if we form these clubs and use the BnC to communicate amongst ourselves but keep the ordering within the respective countries it could work. US orders with other US orders, not mixing with the UK and AUS.

This is still a very interesting topic. I would like to think that I am beginning to understand and am starting to grasp the concept you are putting forth.

#10
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I believe a lot of Cons (like Astronomi-con) do something of this nature.

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#11
momosgarage

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I believe a lot of Cons (like Astronomi-con) do something of this nature.


Octavulg you are correct, they do something similar, but I am suggesting people use the IRS tax code to thier advantage, which Astronomi-con does not. They also have focused solely on thier tournament which I think puts them at a disadvantage financially. Not to keep harping on the Dog club example, but they have a LOT more paperwork and insurance issues to think about than a gaming club and they manage just fine. The overhead for a 40k themed 501c(7) club is going to be tenth of the cost of a similarly sized dog club.

Edited by momosgarage, 12 October 2011 - 06:49 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#12
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Well, Astronomi-con's technically Canadian, so I'm not sure they can use the US tax code to their advantage as such.

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#13
momosgarage

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No more ideas?
The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#14
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The most ambitious part of your initial plan would be the pooling of multiple clubs' resources through the agency of a hypothetical B&C referee entity, but at best I could say that's putting the cart before the horse. There are yet no clubs of the type you describe to pool resources, so whatever action is taken in that direction has to start with the organizing of said clubs. I believe that would be best worked out with the onus put on the local group rather than an international forum mostly for the wide variance in laws and tax codes that would apply.

I just can't help but think there's nothing about this idea that can't be accomplished by individual local clubs without involving the B&C in their legal and financial issues. If a local club has the wherewithal to organize themselves into a legal entity and deal with money and common property (and all the drama and other problems that goes with that) then what would they need an international forum's support for?

On top of that, the B&C is international in nature, which falls outside of the US tax code, and "power armor only", which rather narrows down the pool of local participants.

Even in my smaller metro area there are plenty of shops with game rooms that are supportive in that they provide space to play, provide terrain, host tournaments, and have discounting schemes that try to benefit both parties. I really don't see the benefit of this kind of involved labor.

I think you're looking at an unfavorable "hassle to benefit" ratio.

Another avenue to look at that might be more workable for this forum is to do bulk purchases from GW in a similar way that the army bags, custom dice, and patches are done. Think: "OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World. We've talked with them and they'd be pleased to have a sudden spike in sales so have agreed to discount it for B&C members to £? as long as we can guarantee them Y amount of orders."

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#15
momosgarage

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I just can't help but think there's nothing about this idea that can't be accomplished by individual local clubs without involving the B&C in their legal and financial issues. If a local club has the wherewithal to organize themselves into a legal entity and deal with money and common property (and all the drama and other problems that goes with that) then what would they need an international forum's support for?

On top of that, the B&C is international in nature, which falls outside of the US tax code, and "power armor only", which rather narrows down the pool of local participants.



It does serve a larger purpose than you can imagine. I gave my GSDCA example numerous time, however it seems I was not clear about the distinct advantages that a smaller club would have by also partnering with an international organization. I know you meant no harm, but please don't dismiss this part of the concept simply because you are unfamiliar with the need and benfits of a parent organization. Having the B&C as the parent organization brings a lot of legitamacy to the smaller clubs. The B&C can then begining filing thier taxes differently to OUR benefit, right now they do it all out of pocket with donations and t-shirt sales. By declaring themsleves a non-profit, more of the raised money goes BACK into the website and community at large. Organizing the smaller clubs is a secondary recomendation from me. However the B&C should become a non-profit because in the end its better for them and us the users of the community. This is the right move for the B&C, they just need to figure out how. Not all my suggestions will work for them, however many will.

Here are some links with different opinions on the benefits of a "parent" organization with affiliated groups or subsidiaries:

http://www.sdlaw.com...ubsidiaries.htm

http://www.community...cial/index.html

http://www.socialedg...-structure/view

http://www.christian...ate_corporation

http://www.epa.gov/o...docs/mffbog.pdf

Even in my smaller metro area there are plenty of shops with game rooms that are supportive in that they provide space to play, provide terrain, host tournaments, and have discounting schemes that try to benefit both parties. I really don't see the benefit of this kind of involved labor.

I think you're looking at an unfavorable "hassle to benefit" ratio.



Once again, I know you meant no harm, but if you don't see or can't understand the tax implications within context, I am at loss to explain it to you without giving you a one on one, very long winded, drawn out, "come to jesus talk". You'll have to read through what I posted and just understand that I am CERTAIN the tax benfits are well worth the effort. I am not going to disclose my dog clubs 990, but there is PLENTY of savings to be had forming such an organization and the dog clubs have a much higher financial risk to the individual club leaders than a 40K club would EVER have.

Another avenue to look at that might be more workable for this forum is to do bulk purchases from GW in a similar way that the army bags, custom dice, and patches are done. Think: "OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World. We've talked with them and they'd be pleased to have a sudden spike in sales so have agreed to discount it for B&C members to £? as long as we can guarantee them Y amount of orders."


GW won't do this. Setting up a non-profit with a tax ID is a more legitimate means to carry this idea out. I guess I will have to come out and say, if one non-profit club is set up that group can then do the bulk order for "other paid members" across the web, they won't need to be local and GW will not likely be aware of the "redistribution effort" at the time of order. Being local makes distribuiton easier to manage and I said multiple clubs because they would manage the individual distribution to thier members after the "ordering club" sends the other clubs one big box with everyones order from said club. Nothing is guaranteed in the life, but I'd be much more willing to give cash to buy in bulk to an established non-profit club that is affiliated with the B&C acting as a larger parent non-profit. If you think most folks will trust the following

"OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World"

then we have very different ideas about human nature. If a club is bogus the folks on the B&C would post "don't buy from these guys they lost the last order, here is thier organization name and tax ID". Also, since he B&C would be the parent organization, clubs that like to skim orders or steal would be instantly identified, without such it would be the "wild west", where individuals wouldn't have any idea who to trust. Ths would result in significantly reduced participation in the clubs and lessend community voice.

Imagine the following:

1) The B&C becomes the parent organization to smaller local non-profit clubs as they form. The smaller clubs collect dues from members and pass on part of those fees to the B&C to be listed as affiliated members. Individuals can also pay their dues directly to the B&C if they don't have a local club to join.

2) Clubs affiliated with the B&C can have sub-pages on the forum, can list thier upcomming event for everyone around the world to see and attend and can organize bulk purchases from "trusted sources".

3) The B&C pays no TAXES on revenue, nor do any of the smaller affiliated clubs. I am not going to go into detail here, but imagine a type of profit sharing where all revenue goes back into the club members pockets in the form GW merchandise below cost (this may not work for everyone, but still worth considering for the USA).

4) Secondary item: the B&C collects and tracks tournament data and player profiles with a leader board. Since clubs will be affiliated with the B&C, official reporting schemes can be developed and the B&C can become the Facebook/linkedin or WHATEVER of 40K. Sure, discussions need to be Power Armour related, but stat tracking and club sub pages can be more loose allowing some NON-PA topics in those specific areas of the forum.

There is a LOT of potential here, someone just needs to feel the need to make it real. I don't think that persons me, but thats because I don't have nearly the level of investment behind the scenes on this specific forum. There are people here who do and its definately worth thier time to take the next step for something they have already invested a decade in.

Edited by momosgarage, 18 October 2011 - 06:50 PM.

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#16
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It does serve a larger purpose than you can imagine.


I can imagine quite a lot, actually.

I know you meant no harm, but please don't dismiss this part of the concept simply because you are unfamiliar with the need and benfits of a parent organization.


I'm not dismissing the needs of the B&C, I'm suggesting that the B&C would probably be much better off without entangling itself legally with a chaotic raft of local clubs.

Having the B&C as the parent organization brings a lot of legitamacy to the smaller clubs.


The clubs glom off the B&C's established credibility at no risk to themselves, while the B&C risks its hard won credibility by lending its good name to this aforementioned chaotic raft of local clubs.

The B&C can then begining filing thier taxes differently to OUR benefit, right now they do it all out of pocket with donations and t-shirt sales. My declaring themsleves a non-profit more of the raised money goes BACK into the website and community at large.


The B&C owners and admins could probably declare the forum a non-profit without entangling themselves with the finances and politics of the aforementioned chaotic raft of local clubs.

Organizing the smaller clubs is a secondary recomendation from me. However the B&C should become a non-profit because in the end its better for them and us the users of the community. This is the right move for the B&C, they just need to figure out how. Not all my suggestions will work for them, however many will.


And yet the model you propose turns on the dedication and involvement of local clubs, not just members of the B&C.

Once again, I know you meant no harm, but if you don't see or can't understand the tax implications within context, I am at loss to explain it to you without giving you a one on one, very long winded, drawn out, "come to jesus talk". You'll have to read through what I posted and just understand that I am CERTAIN the tax benfits are well worth the effort.


And I know you mean no harm...

GW won't do this.


Has anybody with the clout of a well established internet community and a track record of successful buying initiatives asked them yet? They are in the business of making money, and if presented with an opportunity to make money the smart thing to do is to take it providing the risk is low enough. It wouldn't even be a lower profit margin if sold at wholesale, and if a well thought out business plan were presented to them they would at least consider it in terms of how much money they would make if they agreed versus how much money they thought they would make without the agreement.

I guess I will have to come out and say, if one non-profit club is set up that group can then do the bulk order for "other paid members" across the web, they won't need to be local.


I assume you will lead the pilot program and form a non-profit from your own local club and then take orders from B&C members to prove the concept?

Being local makes distribuiton easier to manage and I said multiple clubs because they would make individual distribution up to each club after the "ordering club" sends the other clubs one big box at a time. Nothing is guaranteed in the life, but I'd be much more willing to give cash to buy in bulk to an established non-profit club that is affiliated with the B&C acting as a larger parent non-profit.


Sure. A federation of clubs with the B&C admins as the "grand lodge". I see that, and I agree that it could work. I am simply skeptical.

If you think most folks will trust the following

"OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World"

then we have very different ideas about human nature. If a club is bogus the folks on the B&C would post "don't buy from these guys they lost the last order, here is thier organization name and tax ID".


We obviously do have different ideas about human nature:

1) Every club will need an honest business person to help start up and keep things going. We are talking about dealing with United States IRS and thats nothing to fool with. Basically if someone can't run a retail hobby shop in the black consistantly, there is no way they could run a non-profit club.

2) No one can ever try to "skim" a salary out of this enterprise. Its tempting and very doable, but would be in DIRECT violation of the IRS rules for running 501c(7). Essentially, it will be very time consuming for some of the clubs members, without pay.


For starters, I proposed what I did because the B&C already does it with the bags, dice, and patches.

Moving right along, I think people are the most honest when they don't have a sustained opportunity to do wrong. Ad hoc drives to fund a single initiative limited in time and scope I have much less of a problem with than a system that relies on the honesty and integrity of multiple agencies spread around the globe with numerous bank accounts and no other accountability in place than "the IRS says not to" and "the internet would frown upon it".

The financial activity that the B&C already engages in through the bag orders has a track record to refer to, as well as limited risk to the participants. I was willing to send in a payment for patches, accepting that if something happened it was a one time loss with no other entanglements attached to it. You start getting into a network of legal entities with bank accounts and membership fees, well, I get a lot more protective of my time and money and much more skeptical of the motivations of other folks.

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#17
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Has anybody with the clout of a well established internet community and a track record of successful buying initiatives asked them yet? They are in the business of making money, and if presented with an opportunity to make money the smart thing to do is to take it providing the risk is low enough. It wouldn't even be a lower profit margin if sold at wholesale, and if a well thought out business plan were presented to them they would at least consider it in terms of how much money they would make if they agreed versus how much money they thought they would make without the agreement.


Well, there's all those stores they insist on price-fixing with...

Edited by Octavulg, 18 October 2011 - 07:37 PM.

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#18
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Well, there's all those stores they insist on price-fixing with...


There is that. ;)

GW's stubbornness is legendary, and any recommendation I make is based on rational self interest. GW seems to demonstrate a state of irrational self interest at times.

Edited by -Max-, 18 October 2011 - 07:47 PM.

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#19
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I assume you will lead the pilot program and form a non-profit from your own local club and then take orders from B&C members to prove the concept?


Didn't you read, I am aleady involved in the dog sporting world. Thats the non-profit club I am currently giving my time to. I can't do it all. However, since I have some experience with such and started this thread, it would seem pretty obvious what role I would play to get the ball rolling. If its not obvious, then my message has gone out on deaf ears.

The clubs glom off the B&C's established credibility at no risk to themselves, while the B&C risks its hard won credibility by lending its good name to this aforementioned chaotic raft of local clubs.


Please look at my German Shepherd Dog Club of America example again.

http://www.gsdca.org/

A federation of clubs with the B&C admins as the "grand lodge". I see that, and I agree that it could work.


This comment is closer to the reality of what I am suggesting, please read through all my posted links and comment accordingly. Again, I mean no offense, I think you are missing some understanding of the legal aspect of opperating a non-profit entity in the manner I am suggesting.

Back to my GSDCA example, they offer EVERYTHING I have mentioned for dog competitions and are in NO WAY at risk, due to the financial practices of affiliated clubs. Please look at my links and try to understand that this kind of bureaucratic set up exists for MANY parent non-profits all over the USA. GSDCA will NEVER be at finacial risk due to the behavior of an affiliated club. GSDCA, like the B&C eventually would do, sets up rules and overseas compliance to a lesser extent. If a group mismanages thier clubs finances GSDCA is under no obligation to save them or take responsibility. This is a legitimate approach and should not be dismissed. The issue would be for the B&C "parent clubpresident and treasurer to become educated about running a parent non-profit. It is currently being done successfully in many different types of organizations and is not a pipe dream, it already a reality with time tested framework and best practices, so I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

Here is an example ofthe kinds of risks a "Dog Club" faces and while a 40K club would still need to carry Commercial General Liability Insurance, it would have very few of the overall risks that a similar sized dog club would have. Basically a 40K club could get all the advantages that a non-profit dog club would get without any of the risks.

http://christinevanw...ou-need-it.html

http://www.dogclubinsurance.com/

http://www.rvnuccio....ge-summary.html

And yet the model you propose turns on the dedication and involvement of local clubs, not just members of the B&C.


GW games are tangible and require face time to play. Local club participation is required, just like dog competitions. The local clubs are needed for the "community aspect" to be realized. Posting on a web forum alone is not enough to become a true non-profit and if done incorrectly can result in a rejection of non-profit status. The "local club" aspect makes the non-profit mission real and more likley to "pass snuff" when the tax auditors come around. Remove that aspect and you're dead in the water. The two hobbies have a LOT in common and the gaming community can learn a LOT by copying what the dog clubs are doing. Its pretty obvious, they are in the future, we are in the past.

Edited by momosgarage, 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#20
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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Another avenue to look at that might be more workable for this forum is to do bulk purchases from GW in a similar way that the army bags, custom dice, and patches are done. Think: "OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World. We've talked with them and they'd be pleased to have a sudden spike in sales so have agreed to discount it for B&C members to £? as long as we can guarantee them Y amount of orders."


I'd definitely do this if we could get any sort of discount. As long as it's done through someone who's pretty well-known and well-respected on the boards. You could probably do something like the custom Ultramarine, Space Wolf, and so on dice orders.
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QUOTE (shortysl @ Jul 2 2012, 03:58 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=3104914]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]
It makes sense to me that if the Tactical Marine intercepts the bullet with his face then the Captain really shouldn't lose his Iron Halo. Not unless Captain and Battle Brother were hugging at the time, in which case it's: bullet shorts out shield and then kills Marine. Captain looks on shocked as Marine slides down his body, then sinks to his knees shouting "nooooooooooo" with his hands in the air.

On vacation.

#21
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Another avenue to look at that might be more workable for this forum is to do bulk purchases from GW in a similar way that the army bags, custom dice, and patches are done. Think: "OK everybody, this time we're arranging a Thunderhawk drive from Forge World.


I'd definitely do this if we could get any sort of discount. As long as it's done through someone who's pretty well-known and well-respected on the boards. You could probably do something like the custom Ultramarine, Space Wolf, and so on dice orders.


Use the proceedes from the bulks sale to start the non-profit club in the same fiscal year as the sale! Doing so will have a lasting effect and in the long run will allow the "organizer of the purchase" to deal more effectively with profits, tax liabilities payments from others. Paypals new reporting requirements is one very good reason to incorporate and register as a non-profit. Read this to understand why I keep harping on getting set up as an official non-profit:

http://www.blowoutca...ns-help-us.html
The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#22
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You wouldn;t need a nonprofit to do this, though. We could just get a group together, have someone call Forge World/GW/BL and ask them if we guarantee y orders, can we get some sort of discount. Obviously, the call would be more thought out than that. Then, we could take all the orders, place them as one big one, and whala! Once again, this would have to be thought out a bit more, but you get the gist.
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QUOTE (shortysl @ Jul 2 2012, 03:58 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=3104914]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]
It makes sense to me that if the Tactical Marine intercepts the bullet with his face then the Captain really shouldn't lose his Iron Halo. Not unless Captain and Battle Brother were hugging at the time, in which case it's: bullet shorts out shield and then kills Marine. Captain looks on shocked as Marine slides down his body, then sinks to his knees shouting "nooooooooooo" with his hands in the air.

On vacation.

#23
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You wouldn;t need a nonprofit to do this, though. We could just get a group together, have someone call Forge World/GW/BL and ask them if we guarantee y orders, can we get some sort of discount. Obviously, the call would be more thought out than that. Then, we could take all the orders, place them as one big one, and whala! Once again, this would have to be thought out a bit more, but you get the gist.


Read the blowourcards thread in its entirety. You don't think people haven't tried this already with other hobbies? Someone, definately one person, will have to file a schedule C and pay taxes on the bulk order (whether paypal was used or not), unless they buy under some other existing business tax ID. Its not that simple. I hate to keep harping on the dog club example, but in a nut shell, the above situation is the reason is why they bothered to form the non-profit club in the first place.

For exampe, some guy who's gross income is $35,000 USD orders $5,000 USD worth of forgeworld under his name. $1000 USD is for him personally, but the other $4000 USD is to be redistributed to people that gave him money in advance. Evetually he recives $4,000 USD of unaccounted for income (paypal or not). The IRS DOES NOT KNOW where this money came from and since the person only makes $35,000 USD a year this persons tax return is flagged for audit. VERY REAL SCENARIO, that could have been avoided if the whole transaction was done under a 501c(7) with its own separate bank account and tax ID.

Here are some points in the blowoutcards thread worth pondering:

-You still have to claim hobby income, and your expenses are only deductible if 1) you itemize your deductions, and 2) they are subject to a 2% AGI limitation floor. You are better off having it be a business than being a hobby because most people won't be allowed to claim hobby deductions

-If you sell one card you don't. A tv is tangible personal property. Like a car is not subject to taxation. If you have multiple sales and transactions you become a car dealer and report income accordingly. Its a case-by-case scenario. Its not black and white

-Id need more than that though. Other income you dad, taxes paid, charity, mortgage income etc. The way the irs usually thinks is ok you make 100k a year. In addition you have 1k of income unexplicably in your bank. That's 1% of other income and is reasonable. Now if you report $5k in income and have $1k in other that looks more suspicious. They like percentages and comparing it to the industry average.

-The IRS can go back 7 years - so if you start reporting a bunch of stuff this year or next year that you've never reported before, you better be able to prove that you didn't under-report in the last 7 years.

-Actually yes, I do. Your LCS is correct to a point. The best/easiest way to think of sales tax is to look at the "end user." If I live in PA, I charge sales tax to my local PA customers. If I live in PA, and I buy an item from NY THEORETICALLY I am supposed to track all my internet/out of state purchases and remit sales tax to my state every quarter. Now, realistically that doesn't happen. But theoretically, wherever the last destination of the final product is, is the point in time it is to be taxed. So while your LCS is correct they don't have to collect/pay sales tax on their buyers behalf for out of state sales they are supposed to be tracking their purchases that they open and are supposed to remit state sales tax on those purchases (which I'm assuming they aren't doing because 90% of the country doesn't).

-Same place as if you receive a 1099-K. Schedule C - Profit/Loss from a business. There is a place for gross receipts not reported on a 1099, and a place to input the 1099 as well.

-The IRS can say you owe just on your $2000 profit, but the State can say different, even with proof of what the IRS said. Also who says the IRS won't want taxes for the whole $20,000. What proof do you have otherwise if audited? You won't have a shoebox full of recipts to prove the original cost of the items.

-You are in essence being penalized by having it classified as a hobby. You want it to be classified as a business so you can write off expenses, and you aren't subject to 2% limitation. If it's business, you take deductions on schedule C. If it's a hobby you take your expenses on schedule A - misc itemized deductions and only get the deductions if 1) you itemize, and 2) your misc itemization exceed 2% of your AGI. As far as whether you are a business or a hobby, there is no rhyme or reason - each case is separate. One person it can be a business, the next a hobby. The burden of proof is on your to show it's a business, not a hobby and not on the IRS. You have to prove your MAIN REASON is to make $, and that you don't get too much personal enjoyment on the side.

-Hobby - claim all income. Losses are itemized and can only take them if 1) you file schedule A and itemize your deductions, and 2) your hobby expenses exceed 2% of your AGI. Also cannot generate a loss, so you can only claim expenses up to hobby income earned.

-The only people who need to worry are the ones who make more than 20k on Paypal this year and have no paper trail, don't remit, state sales tax, and don't have a vendor's license. Everyone else will probably be just fine, whether you choose to look at your cards as a hobby, business, or investment.

-You become a sole proprietor - earn income doing small jobs and generate losses with your expenses. These losses will be offset in the years he gets paid for the books. He should have a Writer busienss and file Schedule C every year.

Edited by momosgarage, 18 October 2011 - 11:52 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#24
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Seems like the B&C needs some help funding growth. This might be a good time for the site owners to pursue 501c(7) status:

http://www.bolterand...howtopic=245027

In the UK a non-profit is called a Community Interest Companies (CICs) as a Social Enterprise.

Edited by momosgarage, 12 January 2012 - 09:38 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"

#25
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In light of Brother Argos stepping down, does the idea of the B&C becoming a non-profit sound like a good idea, now, nearly 3 years later?

 

http://www.bolterand...-stepping-down/

 

Years ago I recommended the B&C establish itself as a not-for-profit, 501c(7) in the USA or as a Community Interest Companies (CIC), Social Enterprise, in the UK.  All Brother Argos had to add at the time was the comment, "The Bolter and Chainsword is based in England"

 

http://www.bolterand...-2#entry2963619


Edited by momosgarage, 15 July 2014 - 09:02 PM.

The Demiurg are "Space Gnomes" because the Squats were "Space Dwarves" and Ratlings are "Space Hobbits"