72 replies to this topic

[Jolemai]

Opposition
A small sized force that I'm likely to use against a "hybrid" Imperial Guard army. I use "hybrid" in lieu of a suitable term for a bunch of infantry, Sentinels and possible a Leman Russ or two. It is also possible that I may use this list against an Ork, Eldar or even a Marine force and what these opposition forces consist of can be seen in my blog.

List

Astorath

Death Company (6)
~ Jump Packs
~ Power Fist, Bolter
~ Inferno Pistol

Lemartes

Death Company (6)
~ Jump Packs
~ Power Fist, Bolter

Death Company (5)
~ Power Fist, Bolter
~ Power Sword
~ Rhino
~~ Extra Armour

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

The plan is fairly simple; the Rhino is there for cover for the advancing jump pack squads, while the Dreadnought is a distraction.

Options
Been thinking on how I could tweak it. I could:

1) Downgrade Lemartes to a regular Chaplain and bulk out the Rhino squad with more Death Company
2) Drop Lemartes completely and bulk out all squads evenly (would add a Power Sword to the squad he vacated)
3) Drop the Dreadnought and the Rhino for more bodies and have a ten-man foot squad coming out of the Drop Pod
4) Drop Lemartes for two Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas and bulk out the Rhino squad (would add a Power Sword to the squad he vacated)

What are you thoughts on this?

Edited by Jolemai, 31 December 2017 - 10:17 PM.

[Brother Maikel]

Its a very fluffy list, but it has two big problems:
1) Scoring. You have none. Barring a lucky warlord roll to make Astorath Scoring, in 5/6 missions you are literally forced to table every opponent or at least to kill off/drive away their scoring units and win on secondaries. Even Big Guns/Scouring doesn't give you anything that can hold an objective.
2) Durability. Individually, each of your models is pretty darn durable. However, you only have 19 marine bodies and 3 vehicles. Each body you've got on the table is a huge number of points, so each wound that gets through the 3+/5+FNP represents a substantial chunk of your army evaporating. DC are survivable, but they're not invincible, especially vs weight of fire.

Part of your problem is due to the large number of JPDC you're running. Each Jump Pack represents 3/4ths of another DC body, or almost an entire Tac marine body.

Here's what I'd do, given the models you have listed on your blog.

Astorath

DC (5)
+ Jump Packs
+ 1x Bolter & Power Fist
+ 4x Bolter & Chainsword
Lemartes

DC (10)
+ 1x Bolter & Thunder Hammer
+ 9x Bolter & Chainsword
Rhino

Tac Squad (10)
+ Plasma Gun
+ Missile Launcher
Rhino

DC Dread
+ Heavy Flamer
+ Blood Talons
Drop Pod

Gives you a dedicated hammer unit (Astorath + JPDC + Lemartes), a moderately fast moving assault unit with built-in screen (DC in the Rhino), a distraction/disruption unit (DC Dread), and at least some scoring that can sit on home objectives, or run out and grab the relic (Tac Squad), while keeping the overall list DC-focused.
I'd really prefer to run the Rhino DC in a Pod, but you seem to only have one pod available. If you get another, I'd swap their Rhino for a Pod and either a Power Sword/Maul for them, a Magna-grapple for the dread (S8 AP2 ranged weaponry for tank busting in the backfield), or an Infernus pistol for the JPDC.

[Jolemai]

Thanks for your reply.

To be honest I hadn't considered fielding a Tactical Squad as it feels to be cheating a little, but it certainly does give me more balance and it has given me a lot of food for thought. Do you feel that Death Company lists can no longer reliably (or rather less reliably so) table opponents in this addition? Or is it merely too small a force to do so?

[Brother Maikel]

Well, somebody has to deliver the Death Company to the battlefield

I'm of the opinion that any list which lacks scoring units is shooting itself in the foot.
One of our greatest strengths is the mobility we have, and the tactical flexibility that provides. A DC-only list throws the tactical flexibility out the window: to win you have to kill all of your opponents' scoring models or drive them away from all objectives, and they know it. That lets your opponent dictate the terms of engagement, which means unless you've got a really hot hand with the dice, they've got a huge advantage over you.

Without any scoring units of your own an enemy with superior mobility (Eldar) can ignore your guys until late game, and there's little you can do to stop them: especially at 1250pts you don't have enough bodies to reliably cover more than 3-4 objectives, leaving at least 1-2 on average uncovered. They snag one, game ends, and you're left holding the bag. An enemy with superior shooting (IG, C:SM) can fortify in a corner and force you to weather 2-3 turns of shooting to get at them: they don't have to worry about coming at you because you are forced to come to them. An army with superior fixing forces (IG, 'nids) will entrap your unit, keeping them immobile and ineffective for most of the game, while their other models whittle away at your support. You basically give your opponent the ability to ensure that they're facing you where they are strongest and you are weakest, because as soon as they see your armylist they know what you'll be doing.

On a tactical level the improvements to Rage mean that they'll chew through any small- to mid-sized backfield unit in about 1 turn, leaving themselves exposed to shooting. On top of that the changes to Fearless (especially the loss of fearless wounds, and the conferral of fearless from ICs to units) means that any large fixing unit will probably hold a DC squad for at least 2-3 game turns. Lacking fearless wounds to thin out enemy units after winning combat, the DC are forced to rely on their own attacks to wipe an enemy, and since Rage+FC only work on the charge, that'll likely take a while.

Long story short, I would make sure to have at least 1-2 scoring units even in a DC-themed list. That forces your opponent to "come out and play" instead of just turtling or playing keep-away.

[Jolemai]

I have a game booked for this list on the 23rd December, so here's an update for it.

List

Astorath

Lemartes

Death Company (6)
~ Jump Packs
~ Power Fist, Bolter

Death Company (6)
~ Power Fist, Bolter
~ Power Sword
~ Rhino

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

Tactical Squad (10)
~ Melta Gun
~ Missile Launcher
~ Combi-Melta, Melta Bomb
~ Rhino

I feel these tweaks offers me more balance but also enables me to take down any tanks I will see. At 1250 I don't expect any flyers from my group, so it's not a worry right now. Tactics are essentially the same as mentioned above, but I can tweak them from opponent to opponent.

The game in question is against Guard. Although I don't know the list, I know my opponent and he will likely sit back and wait for me to arrive. I plan on splitting my Tactical Squad and leaving the Missile Launcher half out of sight at the back of my deployment zone on an objective. The rest will deploy aggressively and will move forward at 12" first turn (to fire smoke) and 18" second turn (if needed) Both tanks will block line of sight on my jumpers. The Drop Pod will aim for the flank with the Dreadnaught popping smoke on the turn it arrives and it will hopefully assault in turn two. The remaining Tactical Combat Squad will armour hunt or offer support if necessary.

Sound fine?

Edited by Jolemai, 14 December 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Jolemai]

This of course is an alternative;

Astorath

DC (5)
+ Jump Packs
+ 1x Bolter & Power Fist
+ 4x Bolter & Chainsword
Lemartes

DC (10)
+ 1x Bolter & Thunder Hammer
+ 9x Bolter & Chainsword
Rhino

Tac Squad (10)
+ Plasma Gun
+ Missile Launcher
Rhino

DC Dread
+ Heavy Flamer
+ Blood Talons
Drop Pod

[Jolemai]

Took the above list to a game on the 23/12/12 and a report of the match can be found on my blog

 

Thinking of dropping Lemartes for two attack bikes and another DC member. Also thinking of swapping the Rhinos for Bolter/Flamerbacks given that I'm not using the full transport capacity of the rhino. Any thoughts?

[Jolemai]

Following the last game against the Imperial Guard I made a few changes which can be seen below:

Revised List

Astorath

Death Company (7)
~ Jump Packs
~ Power Fist, Bolter

Death Company (6)
~ Power Fist, Bolter
~ Power Sword
~ Razorback
~~ Twin-linked Heavy Bolter

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

Tactical Squad (10)
~ Melta Gun
~ Missile Launcher
~ Combi-Melta, Melta Bomb
~ Razorback
~~ Lascannon & Twin-linked Plasma Gun

Attack Bike Squadron (2)
~ Multi Melta (2)

A bit more anti tank, anti personnel and another Death Company member for Lemartes seemed like a good idea. This then had a game on the weekend against Chaos, with the a report of the match found on my blog later this week.

[Jolemai]

...and this is how it did.

[Jolemai]

Latest set of tweaking sees me lose the Tactical Squad as it wasn't really doing anything of note.

Revised List

Astorath

Death Company (7)
~ Jump Packs
~ Power Fist, Bolter

Death Company (6)
~ Power Axe
~ Power Sword
~ Bolter
~ Razorback
~~ Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
~~ Search Light
~~ Dozer Blade

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

Assault Squad (6)
~ Flamer
~ Hand Flamer, Power Sword, Melta Bomb
~ Razorback
~~ Lascannon & Twin-linked Plasma Gun
~~ Search Light
~~ Dozer Blade

Attack Bike Squadron (2)
~ Multi Melta (2)

Land Speeder Squadron (1)
~ Heavy Bolter (2)

Now it seems like I have a bit more balance. I have two dedicated anti-tank shooting units and two dedicated anti-personnel units. Whilst I lose the option of a second objective camper, I have added the Flamer(s) to deter charging and all being well they can go out if sight somewhere.

An alternative would be to drop the speeder and find the points for a full RAS, putting half of the unit in the Razorback and putting the other unit on the baseline somewhere.

Thoughts on this tweak?

[Boomkapow]

I would consider taking a melta gun in the assault squad. Other than that I think it's fine. Also, if you can I would try and get the points for an assault cannon on the speeder. great against power armor and higher toughness targets.

[Jolemai]

I could squeeze a Melta Gun in, but it really depends on how I use the RAS. As my only scoring unit I want them to sit on an objective, or maybe even come on from reserve to grab an objective so (to me anyway) the special weapon is more of a charge deterrent rather than a tank hunting opportunity. If I did take the Melta Gun I would definitely drop the Hand Flamer. Certainly open to trying it though.

 

To get in the Assault Cannon I would need to drop at least one DC model and I'm woefully short on numbers as it is. Just not sure if I can justify it...

[pyromaniac]

Drop the hand flamer, S3 template just doesn't cut the butter nowadays

[Jolemai]

I do agree it is ten points I can probably spend better elsewhere, but when this squad gets charged it will have 2xD3 automatic Overwatch shots and that should count for something. On the regular shooting phase the template can cover more than one model and surely having greater than one S3 shot is generally better than one S4 shot?

 

As I said above, I may well end up taking it (and the Flamer) out for the Melta Gun on the regular marine. I just need to work out how best I'm going to use this tiny, singular RAS.

[Jolemai]

Latest battle report for this list can be found here.

[teblin]

You could always paint Tactical Marines or Assault Marines in DC colours to get some scoring units in.

[Jolemai]

Maybe somewhere down the line. I have a million other models to paint first...

[Jolemai]

Following the game against the Eldar, I've been thinking about this of late.

Revised List

Astorath

Librarian
~ Force Axe
~ Shield of Sanguinius
~ Fear of the Darkness

Death Company (7)
~ Jump Packs
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Sword (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (5)
~ Bolter (1)

Death Company (6)
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Axe (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Sword (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (3)
~ Bolter (1)
~ Razorback
~~ Twin-linked Heavy Bolter

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

Assault Squad (5)
~ Flamer
~ Hand Flamer, Power Sword, Melta Bomb
~ Razorback
~~ Lascannon & Twin-linked Plasma Gun

Attack Bike Squadron (2)
~ Multi Melta (2)

The Librarian is there two give my guys extra cover with Shield of Sanguinius as they close in. There is little in the way of ignore cover weapons/armies in my group at the moment so in my opinion, the change is worth it. He will ride with the RAS and I feel that Fear of the Darkness will compliment the Flamer weaponry of the squad (the idea of this squad to to grab and hold an objective, hence the Flamers).

This list plays similar to my other lists in that everything moves as one, with the tanks up front and Astorath's squad in cover behind.

[Jolemai]

Latest run out for this list can be found here.

Edited by Jolemai, 14 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Sometimes I play an full 1750pts DC list.  The game is for fun anyways is it not?  Winning is not always everything.  I'd give your full DC lists a try someday.  Who needs scoring to have a fun game anyways?

[Jolemai]

Indeed

Personally I like the challenge it poses and despite it looking similar to my other lists it plays (and has to play) very different.

If the need arises I can do more points and I do have plans for an interesting and themed 2000 point list later this year (need the models though...).

[Sanguine Eternal]

Ah yes, the models.  I have 20 with jp's 10 on foot.  I need more on foot for some variation besides bolters.  Need to model up some with fists and power weapons.

It is a difficult list to play, low model count, but a ton of fun if you can get into combat relatively unscathed.  I was 1 dark reaper kill away from winning a SM/Eldar game.  Ended in a tie with kill points.

[Jolemai]

Latest revamp for the 7th edition:

 

Revised List

Astorath

Death Company (6)
~ Jump Packs
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Sword (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (4)
~ Bolter (1)

Death Company (6)
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Axe (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Power Sword (1)
~ Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (3)
~ Bolter (1)
~ Razorback
~~ Twin-linked Heavy Bolter

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Blood Talons
~ Magna Grapple
~ Drop Pod

Assault Squad (5)
~ Flamer
~ Razorback
~~ Lascannon & Twin-linked Plasma Gun

Attack Bike Squadron (2)
~ Multi Melta (2)

 

Callidus Assassin

[Jolemai]

So I've decided to revamp this on the off chance I get to fit in a small game soon. I feel that by refocusing the list away from armour (my 1850 version can have the armour), I can get a nice, fast, hard-hitting force to play with.

 

During the sixth edition, I believed that a pure DC force wouldn't work - i.e all themed lists need a decent support cast. In short, I have no problem with DC moving to Elites and have altered my support case to have Scouts securing the advance and a mounted entourage to keep pace with the roving DC. Below are my initial thoughts:

 

Post 7th edition Codex list

 

Baal Strike Force

Astorath

~ Warlord

 

Librarian

~ Force axe

~ Level 2 upgrade

~~ Sanguinary discipline

~ Auspex

~ Melta bombs

~ Jump Pack

 

Death Company (6)
~ Jump packs
~ Bolt pistol and power sword (1)
~ Bolt pistol and chainsword (4)
~ Bolter (1)

Death Company (6)

~ Jump packs
~ Bolter and power fist (1)
~ Bolt pistol and power sword (1)
~ Bolt pistol and chainsword (4)

Death Company Dreadnought
~ Lucius Drop Pod

~~ Legacy of Glory: Istvaan V Dropsite Massacre

Scout Squad (5)

~ Sniper rifle (3)

~ Bolter (1)

~ Heavy bolter with hellfire shells (1)

 

Scout Squad (5)

~ Veteran Sergeant

~ Melta Bombs

 

Bike Squadron (3)

~ Grav Gun (2)

~ Attack Bike

~~ Multi Melta

 

Official Assassinorum Detachment

 

Callidus Assassin

 

Tactics

 

The Callidus is there for distraction and to tie up the biggest threat to my force. The Lucius Pod will land exactly where I need it to and will create cover and give the units behind it Shrouded in the first turn. The DCD can then jump out when the DC are nearby and both will support each other. The bikes can be used as either cover for the DC, MC/vehicle hunting and/or to hunt objectives. The Scouts can hold backfield objectives or storm forward ones. The combat Scout may even benefit from an Outflank. Astorath goes with one DC squad, the Librarian goes with the other using Sanguinary to give them a nice boost - or they can double up and create a harder hitting unit.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Jolemai, 20 January 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Jolemai]

Hmm, not really feeling the Librarian.

 

So, Chaplain, Sanguinary (High) Priest or something else?