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How are your Thousand Sons doing?

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#26
Ahzek451

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Just getting into Thousand Sons, what would you advise I get to build a 1000p army?


Ahriman/D.Prince.
Box of exalted
1-2 rubric squads
1 scarab
1-2 boxes of Tzaangor

The rest is up to you. Throw in an easy predator, maulerfiends, etc.

I was thinking of running
Daemon prince with dual talons
Exhalted Sorceror
Exhalted Sorceror

Rubric marines x5
Rubric marines x5
Rubric marines x5
Tzangors x10 Chainsword and pistols

SpawnX1
Spawn x1
Tzangor enlightened with bows

Hellbrute with twin las and missile launcher

Thus getting me 9cp at 1000p
What do you think?

 

 

Not bad. My stance is, run what you like first and foremost.

 

But as far as efficiancy.....

 

Blades tend to be more efficient on tzaangor over chainswords and pistols...even though I think chainswords and pistols look cooler.

Nothing wrong with 2 exalted, but I would prefer one of them to be Ahriman.

 

Not a bad list though. Got a mix of everything going. 



#27
strawberry fist

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Just getting into Thousand Sons, what would you advise I get to build a 1000p army?

Ahriman/D.Prince.
Box of exalted
1-2 rubric squads
1 scarab
1-2 boxes of Tzaangor

The rest is up to you. Throw in an easy predator, maulerfiends, etc.
I was thinking of running
Daemon prince with dual talons
Exhalted Sorceror
Exhalted Sorceror

Rubric marines x5
Rubric marines x5
Rubric marines x5
Tzangors x10 Chainsword and pistols

SpawnX1
Spawn x1
Tzangor enlightened with bows

Hellbrute with twin las and missile launcher

Thus getting me 9cp at 1000p
What do you think?

Not bad. My stance is, run what you like first and foremost.

But as far as efficiancy.....

Blades tend to be more efficient on tzaangor over chainswords and pistols...even though I think chainswords and pistols look cooler.
Nothing wrong with 2 exalted, but I would prefer one of them to be Ahriman.

Not a bad list though. Got a mix of everything going.

I’d like Ahriman though don’t have the points spare to upgrade a sorcerer. I think the spawn should run around with the prince as a mini bodyguard with the bow tzangors causing mischief elsewhere. I thought pistols could be of more use but i suppose the -1ap of the swords is better

#28
Ahzek451

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Ahriman is so amazing. Obviously up to you, but it is well worth it to find the points to trade out an exalted. You will want the +1 invuln warlord trait on either the prince or ahriman to make a 3++. 

 

Spawn can certainly do that, but they also do good at running around on their own grabbing objectives. The bow Tzaangor will do the same. 

 

Yeah, the -1 ap in combat will overall do a lot more than a strength 3 pistol shot. 



#29
Quixus

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Just getting into Thousand Sons, what would you advise I get to build a 1000p army?

 

Ahriman/D.Prince.

Box of exalted

1-2 rubric squads

1 scarab

1-2 boxes of Tzaangor

 

The rest is up to you. Throw in an easy predator, maulerfiends, etc. 

 

The Start collecting box is arhiman and one squad each of Rubrics and Tzaangors, so you can save there.



#30
Sonoftherubric21

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So to add to this conversation, I had my first game using my Black Legion against the new Loyalist book last night. Though it wasn't using my Thousand Sons I think I gained some perspective. 

 

It was against Salamanders specifically. 20 intercessors, executioner, large aggressor unit, Infiltrating dreadnoughts + redemptor. and some eliminators. 

 

I think that we as a faction (referring to Thousand Sons specifically) are actually in, by far, the best spot of all the Chaos books. What I saw overwhelmingly from the Loyalist list was large amounts of AP-1 (or Bonus AP in general) firepower. 

 

I don't know about other loyalist chapters given all of the chapters have variances in play style but judging from what I saw last night I think were in a safe position to do fairly well. Rubrics can trade wounds and shots, we have far better casting and mortal output, and we have lots of infantry that....don't really care about all that bonus AP shooting. I think Tzaangors and Rubrics are well suited against the current loyalists. 

 

This is just conjecture given what I have seen so far, but All is Dust will be VERY useful given the bevy of primaris D1 shooting when fighting loyalists. I will of course welcome whatever GW gives us in Psychic Awakening, but its nice to see for a relatively early book we can still hold our own. 



#31
The Blood Raven

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@Sonoftherubric21  - On the grimdark hand, marines have more flexibility in points cost and shooting options. It is all relative and I agree with your major point.



#32
CrystalSeer

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So to add to this conversation, I had my first game using my Black Legion against the new Loyalist book last night. Though it wasn't using my Thousand Sons I think I gained some perspective. 

 

It was against Salamanders specifically. 20 intercessors, executioner, large aggressor unit, Infiltrating dreadnoughts + redemptor. and some eliminators. 

 

I think that we as a faction (referring to Thousand Sons specifically) are actually in, by far, the best spot of all the Chaos books. What I saw overwhelmingly from the Loyalist list was large amounts of AP-1 (or Bonus AP in general) firepower. 

 

I don't know about other loyalist chapters given all of the chapters have variances in play style but judging from what I saw last night I think were in a safe position to do fairly well. Rubrics can trade wounds and shots, we have far better casting and mortal output, and we have lots of infantry that....don't really care about all that bonus AP shooting. I think Tzaangors and Rubrics are well suited against the current loyalists. 

 

This is just conjecture given what I have seen so far, but All is Dust will be VERY useful given the bevy of primaris D1 shooting when fighting loyalists. I will of course welcome whatever GW gives us in Psychic Awakening, but its nice to see for a relatively early book we can still hold our own. 

 

This is largely my experience as well. Rubrics stand up quite well to the types of firepower intercessors can throw out, and everything else goes down rather well to mortal wounds.

 

I've also had a lot of success with my 'Cult of Ruin' detachment.  Rules wise its an allied Devastation battery from Vigilus 2 using Alpha Legion tactics, with three squads of havocs. Fluff wise its another cult, represented by rubrics with bigger guns.

 

When you add re-rolls to lascannons and allow them to infiltrate to good firing positions, the math changes significantly. -1 to hit and +1 toughness with a 2+ in cover make them survivable, and newMarines don't stand up as well to 8-12 lascannon shots.


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#33
Prot

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Not to be a negative Nancy but I think NuMarines are too different to lump together like this.

For example with Imperial Fists you’re going to see far more damage 2 Intercessors, and cover denial which completely unhinges Thousand Sons.

With Raven Guard the valuable characters or going to be under a tremendous barrage from multiple sources. White Scars again will play completely different.

What I feel is more certain is the day of the cheap blob is over.... whether it be Plague Bearers , or a pint reduction in Cultists ( rumoured at this point) or Tzaangors. I think that a real steep hill to climb now. ( frankly I won’t miss Tzaangors but they were a necessary evil for me).

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#34
Zodd1888

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I think the meta does both what Prot and Son are saying.

Rubrics are in a better position because there are more Marines on the field. This makes the unit more useful, as Rubrics I always took as anti-marine in their role.

What I get from Prot is NuMarines bring more for less, putting them in a better position even though Rubrics are in a better spot as more PA walk the table with AP2.

It's just strictly a roaring hot dumpster fire that Iron Hands Intercessors are better Rubric Marines in nearly every way, for less points.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#35
Skerr

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I saw rumor that cult troops (Rubric, Noise, Zerkers, Plague) might get a bump to 2 wounds. I can't quote the source but if true I would welcome though would expect a bump in points. Though SOTs would lose appeal.

Update. Nevermind.

Edited by Skerr, 11 November 2019 - 05:42 PM.


#36
CrystalSeer

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Not to be a negative Nancy but I think NuMarines are too different to lump together like this.

For example with Imperial Fists you’re going to see far more damage 2 Intercessors, and cover denial which completely unhinges Thousand Sons.

With Raven Guard the valuable characters or going to be under a tremendous barrage from multiple sources. White Scars again will play completely different.

What I feel is more certain is the day of the cheap blob is over.... whether it be Plague Bearers , or a pint reduction in Cultists ( rumoured at this point) or Tzaangors. I think that a real steep hill to climb now. ( frankly I won’t miss Tzaangors but they were a necessary evil for me).

 

A valid point, but the reason I lump them together is largely based on a military concept called weapon engagement zones, or "WEZ". WEZ defines the enemy unit by its capability to engage effectively, in the 40k sense, ranges and rate of fire. Individual characteristics aside, all new marines are using the same weapons profiles, which put their effective ranges for small arms maxing at 30". Adding in movement, that's 36". I propose using the extended 48" range of a lascannon to engage from outside of their effective fire ranges and knock out targets with high rates of fire like centurions or aggressors. That way, turns one and 2 can be used to set the conditions for fire superiority before the rubrics go in to the real hot zone. The free move from AL traits is good for this because it gives you an extra 9" to play with to ensure your weapons are in the right place. Further, the Devastation Battery stratagem can give you a free shooting activation if you don't get the first turn and they do something cheeky like infiltrating right in to your face.

 

The marines I've encountered all rely on castling with multiple bubbles to reach their ridiculous offensive output. By engaging at longer ranges and breaking their castle, you force them to fight you on a more even ground in which rubrics can excel.

 

Its exceedingly obvious that every book in the Space Marine arsenal has gotten more individual attention than Codex Thousand Sons, so we can't rely on our rules to create good matchups for us. You can however, beat the opposing player by utilizing strategies that do not necessarily have strategems or points assigned.



#37
Zodd1888

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Nail on the head Crystal.

I heard a good analogy by the guys on Tizcan. If releases are staged Index is level 1, Codex is 2, and NuMarines is the start of 3. I think it was Tizcan.

Seeing as TS release was early and light we're effectively 1.5. Greater CSM are ahead by releases like the Discordant. We've got great units that's can play, but if you're optimizing It's just a Supreme Command.

#38
Archaeinox

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I've decided to just get stupid in events, with the whole demon princes and tzaangors and supreme command stuff. I keep taking friendly/fluffy lists and losing. I'd be at the store anyways, so it's either play or stay home since most are playing the event anyway.


"You're a wizard, Ahri"

"Discgoat for Harambe"


#39
Prot

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Go to the store and try to take a list that roasts Marines. It will still be exceptionally difficult. And my hope would be you face something like Ultramarines which use a ton of AP1 and 1 damage or even Sallies but I hope you dodge Ravenguard, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists

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#40
Sonoftherubric21

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Seeing as TS release was early and light we're effectively 1.5. Greater CSM are ahead by releases like the Discordant. We've got great units that's can play, but if you're optimizing It's just a Supreme Command.

 

That can't be correct. Alot tourney lists I have seen include Rubrics. I saw one list which topped (I think it was 3rd place from memory? For a regional I think) with MSU Rubric spam. I can't recall much of the list beyond Ahriman and a couple princes and the large number of units of Rubric 5 mans. The mortal output was very high and opposition had trouble digging rubrics out of cover evidently. 
 

Obviously speaks highly of our book if we are able to drop most of our stuff and still do well. I trust my T-sons to do well against most army lists with the exception of net-listed top tier lists such as 60 + Plaugebearers lol. 


Edited by Sonoftherubric21, 12 November 2019 - 09:34 PM.

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#41
Zodd1888

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Well that is the top shelf competitive lists, PB, IH, WS, and Tau.

I'm meaning that referencing overall content.

We're still running on the same traits, powers, stratagems, and units, versus CSM that have had a full release to a 2.0 type of status. CSM simply has much more options providing more opportunities for utility and synergy. Master of Executions, Dark Apostles, Lord's, Venom Crawlers that could be done up like baller Scarabs, etc.

Space Marines are 3.0. They're had the most revisions overall. Not only did they have their initial release sequence but every other Astartes codex let them adjust. GK, BA, DA, SW, Astartes, Vigilus, and Chapter Approved prior to this burst of releases gave GW way more experience in the Astartes rule set. I'd presume that writing Sister's was probably done at the same time and we'll see the two balance off each other, especially as PA is involved.

Either way I believe you're referring to the Matthew Allee list. His MSU Trip Battalion with double Tzaangor bomb won the Dallas Open. Tizcan Pod Cast did a thing with him, and I think I heard him elsewhere. He was able to hide them in LOS blocking in pretty optimal conditions (good terrain and a bit of tricks). He's pretty open about where 1kS stand. Check this article out for a really good summary:

https://theworthiest...-matthew-allee/

Either way, I'm not saying we can't play or win. I'm just saying we're on the back foot, and honestly always have been. Our biggest weakness isn't volume or quality of fire, it's options.

My heart will always be with the Sorcerer King.

Edit: Sorry for all the Salt! I'm just fresh off of reading that Sisters get our Destiny dice.

Edited by Zodd1888, 13 November 2019 - 02:11 AM.


#42
Ahzek451

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I would have to agree with 1.5. You have to factor in the thought that it is technically not a pre-existing army and it is a brand new force upon itself. I do think GW rushed the codex, perhaps a bit timid on how to handle an overwhelming psychic force. The whole msu 5 man rubric smite spam is an odd byproduct. Odd because it seems to be a late discovery well after the faq changes. People do well with it sure, but any codex has a top build(s) and still won't reach the top of the overall meta at Socal, vegas, or adepticon. I just get sick of the weird soup mixes people play with and claiming to fly under the banner of the sons.  I think GW needs to overhaul the book, and give us the same bonuses if your army sticks to the codex. Like the marines. The book inspires what was once thought impossible. We never really exepected the sons to unite again, let alone ahriman making some kind of peace with magnus. And it has come. Unification. 

 

And you can tell it's showing it's age a bit, even though it has not been that long. Mostly when I look at strats. Looking at the sons strats, there are only 2-3 useful winners in there. The rest are super gimmicky and a waste of time. And I don't expect every codex to have all winning strats, I am just saying the ratio of useful to bad is very noticeable when you look at the sons vs. the newer batch of books. 


Edited by Ahzek451, 13 November 2019 - 07:00 PM.


#43
Zodd1888

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You just got me thinking.

Wouldn't it be nice if our legion trait was: All brotherhood of psykers in a 1kS get the range boost, full smite, and can cast powers more than once.

Bam. Gimme some. Get me a big catalogue of powers and I'm pumped.

Second thing I've heard people mention is how to make Rubrics tough without stepping on existing units and rules. My thought is bump Rubrics to 2W, Terminators to 3W, and make All Is Dust max damage taken from an attack is 1.

Inferno Bolters to Heavy, S5, 2D.

Wish listing!

Sorry all!

#44
Ahzek451

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You just got me thinking.

Wouldn't it be nice if our legion trait was: All brotherhood of psykers in a 1kS get the range boost, full smite, and can cast powers more than once.

Bam. Gimme some. Get me a big catalogue of powers and I'm pumped.

 

I would like to see our legion trait also affect non-psyker units. Keep what we have now, but add in something for everyone else. Maybe your suggestions could be the bonus if you run a pure thousand sons army. like the marine suppliments. 


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#45
darkseren1ty

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Well... i've been adding a lot of FW to my thousand sons recently- helforged contemptor, scorpius, and this:

https://flic.kr/p/2hKHyvq

https://flic.kr/p/2hKEVwS

https://flic.kr/p/2hKHyFk

 

at higher point levels, all that matters is who has the biggest guns


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#46
CrystalSeer

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Well... i've been adding a lot of FW to my thousand sons recently- helforged contemptor, scorpius, and this:

https://flic.kr/p/2hKHyvq

https://flic.kr/p/2hKEVwS

https://flic.kr/p/2hKHyFk

 

at higher point levels, all that matters is who has the biggest guns

 

That Titan looks baller, but I have to disagree on your last point. Hordes can easily beat big guns if not supported.



#47
Sonoftherubric21

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You just got me thinking.

Wouldn't it be nice if our legion trait was: All brotherhood of psykers in a 1kS get the range boost, full smite, and can cast powers more than once.

Bam. Gimme some. Get me a big catalogue of powers and I'm pumped.

Second thing I've heard people mention is how to make Rubrics tough without stepping on existing units and rules. My thought is bump Rubrics to 2W, Terminators to 3W, and make All Is Dust max damage taken from an attack is 1.
 

 

I am cautiously optimistic about the 2 wound rumor. And "eventually" we will get an expanded trait as will all other armies following this marines codex update. Just may take a while. 

 

Given the Tizcan Podcast rumor was just that: Cult troops become 2 wounds.... I can definitely see that being a possibility. It feels unfair that Rubricae are MORE expensive then Primaris yet only have a single wound and a shorter range gun and a trait that literally doesn't effect them (barring squad leader).  Despite All is Dust and the innate Invul save which makes up for the enormous list of rules loyalist marines get

 

All is Dust I have personally found to be a useful rule overall, although I have seen some people here say "all is dust is useless!" but that has not been my experience. I think its fine for the way it is and fluffy. 


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#48
Guzzlrr

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All is dust is awesome sauce with some decent cover it really annoys my opponents when I whip out Maggie and friends. With 2 wounds would fix alot of the main issues I have with chaos but would hope it would also apply to havoks but we'll see

Iron Within ! Iron Without!

 

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#49
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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The only issue with all is dust is that it can be planned for. D2 weapons galore and rubrics drop like flies!
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#50
CrystalSeer

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The only issue with all is dust is that it can be planned for. D2 weapons galore and rubrics drop like flies!

 

This is my problem with it. If you're in cover, its redundant, and if they bring D2+ weapons, it doesn't work. Between the two, you're paying for a rule that doesn't work most of the time. When it does work though, its excellent.






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