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Tactica: Long Fangs


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#1
PeteySödes

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With the release of our rules update it seems we've had a craving and cause for some new discussions relating to our units. Every week we'll feature a new unit available to the 6th with the purpose of discussing the tactics, use, and synergies around them. The Space Wolves are also about legends, sagas and great deeds as well so each week will also kick off or feature a showcase for you bloodclaws and longfangs alike to show off your units and inspire your battle brothers. These discussions will be archived to allow for reference by the new and old as well!

Note, this isn't to lament any nerfs, etc, from previous editions; the rules are as they are so try to unlock its potential for those who wish to use them all the same. Similarly, this thread is only for using the option being discussed; it matters not if you feel something is a better choice as such comments aren't constructive to the topic and shall be removed.

 

- Week 2 -

 

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- Long Fangs -

How do Space Wolves best use Long Fangs?

  • Wargear?
  • Which strategems are worth throwing out?
  • Any solid unit combos?

What say you fearless Warriors of the Rout? And please post your finished Long Fangs here!


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#2
BadgersinHills

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I've been thinking of 5 of them in a pod coming in first turn to take advantage of Devastator Doctrine. The pod is to let them come in in a flexible deployment. I was thinking four lascannons, two of them with two missile launchers, or even lascannons and heavy bolters. With the last option, I'd ditch the drop pod to get them in a Wolf Priest's aura. With the first two, I'd definitely get Wolf's Eye on them to make sure they kill what they're hitting since they're so expensive. 


Edited by BadgersinHills, 12 April 2020 - 02:43 AM.

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Maybe you could model TWC-sized "were-templars" who's inner Templar took over in the fury of battle transforming them into a giant half man - half templar?

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My Works in Progress

 


#3
Karhedron

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Plasma Cannons and Wolf's Eye is a really effective combo (add Keen Senses if necessary due to movement).

Compared to Devastators, the option to take a 5th heavy weapon and a WGPL offers some interesting flexibility. If you are podding the Fangs in the a WGPL with Combi plas works well. If you are deploying them normally then a WG in Terminator Armour with Storm Shield, Storm Bolter and Cyclone Missile Launcher gives the squad an effective 40% increase in firepower as well as the possibility to tanks some hits with the 2+/3++.

If you have the points, a cheap Battle Leader is a very effective addition. Not as good as Wolf's Eye but doesn't require CPs and synergises well with their own ability to reroll 1s to-Hit.

Lastly any character with Morkai Bolts can help if you don't have points for a Battle Leader.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#4
PeteySödes

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I think for a really long time now and probably more than ever Long Fangs are one of our most reliable and versatile units. For all of 8th so far I’ve had a squad on auto include and they’ve been able to equip for all metas and mission types.

My current setup pre-Saga was 3 las, 1hb, 1ml with a TDAWG Ss/Sb leader and an ablative ancient. The 3 las can easily switch to a 3 PC load meta depending and the HB/ML combo makes them incredibly reliable to finish off tough units with 1-2 wounds left for CP using flak missiles and hellfire shells.

I still feel they still work best with a WGBL escort for wound rolls as I’m frequently using Keen Senses and find a second CP for Wolves Eye to be a bit too rich for my blood. I’m incredibly interested in pairing them now with a Primaris WGBL with a MC Stalker and morkai’s teeth.

Edited by PeteySödes, 12 April 2020 - 01:12 PM.

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#5
Cpt.Danjou

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A unit of Long Fangs is an auto include for me too. But I go full ML with them, and have a wgpl, equipped with a ss and a combi-plasma. The reason I use the ML is that I still find it the most versatile option Long fangs have, lascannons probably crack open those high toughness enemies better, but with a cheap wgbl close I have had no problem using them as can openers. And the frag missiles can make a group of chaff have a bad day. I still use frag on terminators and crack on PA marines, something I have done since 3rd edition. Do anyone use Melta Long Fangs?


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#6
Rune Priest Jbickb

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In my meta I have been having great success with plasma cannons out flanked. Clever players try to screen them but if they have to come in on your side you can almost always reach your target anyway because of the range. I also like missile launchers for their versatility and price. Often combined with a Lascannon or 2 if the points are there.
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#7
Dark Shepherd

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7 man packs is the way to go IMO, maximises the awesome strats and makes the unit as tough as old boots

Missile launchers are flaming hot gahbage though :) if you ask me. Theyll barely tickle anything T8 and theyre less effective than lascannons too against almost all infantry (in cover). Long Fangs aint for taking out T3 infantry in the open

#8
theprophetofwar

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Ideas i want to like: 2 las, 2 missile, H. bolter, with a las-cannon razorback. Tidy 300 pt chunk to go along with the rest of the vehicle rush, a la good ol rhino rush.

 3 las, missile, heavy bolter, cyclone/shield termie.  I'm aware its expensive, which is of course a major mark against the add on, but a shielded tda goes a long way for survivability of the squad.  I also love the look of plasma and heavy bolters backed up by a heavy terminator, especially considering the range and reliability compliments, but...

 

Long fangs have always been great,  auto include as least one group. I remember the days of missile launcher spam (and I hated that people expected me to do so). I ran two mixed squads with vehicles back then. I think missiles are fine in general, but I lean harder these days into las. especially considering the dakka other units can put out, the chaff clearing of missile spam doesn't seem worth it even with its possible versatility. As with all of these articles coming i think its important not to talk about them in a vacuum. if i have grey hunters rushing up the board in assault cannon razors, i don't really need the chaff clear missiles, and las is better. I like having one or two as a just in case, a fill in, and the stratagem possibility. 

Im also curious about things like support battle leaders along side the full long fangs. Morkai's bolts might be worth it if you are planning to sit back and buff anyway.


Edited by theprophetofwar, 12 April 2020 - 09:09 PM.

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#9
The Saint Ragnar

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I have always run my Long Fangs with missiles as I have always like a tactically flexible unit. Back in the day I used to have a mix of weapons for the packs but had to sell it to pay for college and when I picked it up again I just gravitated towards the missiles and TDAWGPL with SB/SS and Cyclone. Now with the ability to move them upboard and ignore the hit modifier for CP or hide the out of LoS first then and pop them out doing the same thing is great.

I used to have a Rune Priest sit with them to allow the Chooser of the Slain to go off but now I just have a WGBL sit with them as I'm using my Rune Priests more aggressive these days. Morkai Bolts is a nice thing if I wanted to free up my WGBL to be elsewhere and I like the fluffy thing of the WL marking the targets for his Long Fangs packs whole charging down the enemy.
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For Russ and the AllFather!

Armies Played:

Space Wolves - ~3,000 Points

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#10
PeteySödes

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I'll second having a RP babysit for chooser as a useful play but given the threats i'm usually stopping from reserves I would only sit a RP back with a load out like PCs. (or if i don't have a leviathan).



#11
Valerian

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To play devil's advocate a bit here, I'm not sold on Long Fangs as being all that worthwhile in 8th edition.  Their purpose is to provide (long-ranged) anti-tank/vehicle/monster support, but are they really the most effective and efficient unit to do that within Space Wolves armies?  At the end of the day, you're taking 33 (missile launcher) or 35 (lascannon) points per Long Fang for a T4 1W model with a 3+ Save.  Sure, the save will be improved by staying in cover (which I'm sure they'll pretty much always be taking advantage of), but that'll be offset by the AP of whatever enemy weapons happen to be coming their way.  For example, they'll be at just 4+ (50% saves) against adversary Intercessors shooting at them from 30" away in Turn 2, when the Tactical Doctrine is active.  And, in 8e, there is no way to screen from the incoming fire, as everyone is now free to target anything they can see, outside of Characters (with some exceptions).  That many points, and that many heavy weapons clustered together into a single vulnerable unit (again, just T4, 1W, 3+ save) is going to be a juicy priority target.  Additionally, they only have 1 ablative wound (the Pack Leader), and then potentially another in the WGPL.  Some have mentioned the classic WGTDA Pack Leader with Cyclone Missile Launcher and a Storm Shield, but now you're tanking with a 60 point model, now with 2 wounds, that'll still fail AP saves 1/3 of the time.

 

So, all of that is just to say that, for me, we've got a lot more robust choices for platforms on which to hang our long-ranged anti-tank weapons than these venerable Firstborn Marines.  Furthermore, our most reliable anti-tank weapons aren't even long-range, but on the ubiquitous Thunder Hammers spread across pretty much every unit in our army.

 

EDIT: Editing to add that there might be a place for a full unit of Long Fangs armed with nothing but Heavy Bolters.  In this instance, the unit's purpose would be simply to eradicate opponent's screens from a distance, to allow all of our melee units to go unobstructed toward juicier targets.  In this case, the Long Fangs would be much less expensive per model, and would be a lower priority target, in general, thus decreasing their priority as a target for the opponent, and allowing them to perform their function throughout the battle.

 

 

Best,

 

Val


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#12
Dark Shepherd

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Id argue most dont take the cyclone missile launcher as it was overpriced for ages and jacks up the points on ablative wounds. If they do to, IMO thats a waste of points

Throw in a cp reroll on the stormshield and they stick around for ages. On average would take 12 heavy bolter shots WOUNDING to take out just the terminator wolf guard.

If the unit takes 2 d6 damage shots they still havent lost a lascan on whereas most vehicles could well be dead or on lower/lowest BS profiles

The Keen Senses and Wolfs Eye strats are really good too.

#13
Karhedron

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Replying to Valerian's points, I can see where you are coming from about the drawbacks of Long Fangs but I think you are over-emphasising the weaknesses. Yes they are "only" MEQs and die as such but their long range provides some defense. If your opponent is dedicating resources to shooting at your Fangs, it normally means his better, long range guns (at least in the opening turns). If they are shooting at your Fangs, they are not shooting at your Wulfen/Thunderwolves/<insert killy unit here>.

Secondly, they are an easy source of lascannons with a built-in reroll of 1s. There are enough T8 targets in the game that packing some lascannons is usually a good idea.

Thirdly, Thunder Hammers (even flying ones) compliment heavy guns but don't remove the need for them. Thunder Hammers can be screened out, tarpitted or outmaneuvered. Lascannons have a 48" range meaning they don't have to chase down their targets. Sure a unit of Wulfen hitting a target with hammers will make a bigger mess than your lascannons but it will take them some work to get there on T2 whereas your lascannons can be blazing away from T1.

I don't think I have had a game in 8th where I have regretted bringing my Fangs. They do dependable damage against a range of targets and have rules and stratagems to help make sure the damage sticks. They may not be as glorious as a beserker charge into the enemy lines but even our biggest beat sticks appreciate having the targets softened up and nearby units taken out.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#14
Iain_Stormeyes

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I'm with Valerian on this.  I like Long Fangs, but as anti-tank, they are too fragile compared to Wulfen or other Hammer-wielding units, and they don't provide good anti-horde.  They are easily killed by some of the most popular armies in the meta, and the CP investment per turn can be incredibly high.

 

I still bring Long Fangs to fun match ups, but I wouldn't bring them to any ITC or other tournament event.


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#15
PeteySödes

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As for the durability I keep my WGPL cheap with a ss/sb and the 3++ dissuades a lot of fire because they know I’m going to eat a few of them. I also put them in cover for 2+ save, I feel like it’s a rare table where I’m unable to do so.

I’ll echo Karhedron as well that if they are shooting at long fangs T1 I’m feeling pretty good as it means my close up stuff is closer. Keen senses also gives us a lot of opportunities to hide them from a T1 alpha strike from a superior gun line.

I’ve always maintained that the success of our melee goes hand in hand with strong ranged threats to force opponents to make hard (and hopefully wrong) choices early and Long Fangs are very much part of my recipe for that.
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#16
Valerian

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I'm with Valerian on this.  I like Long Fangs, but as anti-tank, they are too fragile compared to Wulfen or other Hammer-wielding units, and they don't provide good anti-horde.  They are easily killed by some of the most popular armies in the meta, and the CP investment per turn can be incredibly high.

 

I still bring Long Fangs to fun match ups, but I wouldn't bring them to any ITC or other tournament event.

 

Exactly this.  Certainly Long Fangs have a few advantages over Devastator Squads (1 extra Heavy Weapon in the unit, inherent re-roll of 1s, and potential for a Storm Shield to tank some), but otherwise they are very similar units.  Other Marine factions have various helpful Stratagems to use, too.  And nobody, that I'm aware of, is using Devastator Squads to great effect at top tables.  

 

I’ve always maintained that the success of our melee goes hand in hand with strong ranged threats to force opponents to make hard (and hopefully wrong) choices early and Long Fangs are very much part of my recipe for that.

 

I certainly agree that strong ranged threats go hand-in-hand with successful melee threats, but there are much more durable platforms to put those Lascannons (for example) on than Long Fangs.  



#17
Iain_Stormeyes

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I'm with Valerian on this.  I like Long Fangs, but as anti-tank, they are too fragile compared to Wulfen or other Hammer-wielding units, and they don't provide good anti-horde.  They are easily killed by some of the most popular armies in the meta, and the CP investment per turn can be incredibly high.

 

I still bring Long Fangs to fun match ups, but I wouldn't bring them to any ITC or other tournament event.

 

Exactly this.  Certainly Long Fangs have a few advantages over Devastator Squads (1 extra Heavy Weapon in the unit, inherent re-roll of 1s, and potential for a Storm Shield to tank some), but otherwise they are very similar units.  Other Marine factions have various helpful Stratagems to use, too.  And nobody, that I'm aware of, is using Devastator Squads to great effect at top tables.  

 

I’ve always maintained that the success of our melee goes hand in hand with strong ranged threats to force opponents to make hard (and hopefully wrong) choices early and Long Fangs are very much part of my recipe for that.

 

I certainly agree that strong ranged threats go hand-in-hand with successful melee threats, but there are much more durable platforms to put those Lascannons (for example) on than Long Fangs.  

 

 

I know a lot of people here don't like my Triple Stormwolf / Double Wulfen list, but it provides 3 mobile and relatively durable (T7 14W 3+ -1 to be hit) platforms for lascannons, helfrost destructors, and twin heavy bolters.  Exactly the kind of platform you want heavy weapons on, able to take hits and move to get LOS on enemies.


Edited by Iain_Stormeyes, 14 April 2020 - 01:33 AM.

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#18
Oshikai

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Interested in this Discussion as I am curently working on a Long Fang Unit, 3 Lascannons and one Missile Launcher at 1000 Points. But there is allways a nagging Voice that keeps looking at that Mortis Contemptor with Lascannons. Similar in Points, but the Rest of the Army is in transports or a Character. I feel a tad like the Long Fangs are the only "squishy" Target (and stationary) in that List. The Contemptor would give me another T7 Body. But then one could argue that its better to have my Opponent target the Fangs rather than the Transports. I am really not sure where to go here. ( I don`t play hyper competetive or Tournaments)


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#19
Karhedron

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You raise a very good point there about target saturation. My Blood Angels use Devastators for fire support in an all-infantry list. This denies my opponents high value targets for their anti-tank guns.

Conversely, in a mechanised army, there is value in putting your AT on an armoured vehicle. This denies your opponents easy targets for their anti-infantry weapons. This is slightly less relevant in the case of your long ranged fire support since the majority of anti-infantry guns are shorter range.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that the best choice of unit may well depend on the composition of the rest of your army.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#20
theprophetofwar

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I'd say that every unit choice beyond your core strategy depends on the rest of your army. No unit is in a vacuum. Love this discussion, and a lot of these points are why I support the gun transport for them, especially in a 'rhino rush' sort of list. The loadouts all have specific uses, and yes while wolves prefer their infantry, we do have dreadnaughts and gun tanks to fill these roles, but I still find that long ranged long fangs are excellent fire support and objective holders in lists where they enemy has to deal with your melee threats rushing in. Which is nearly all of our lists. And to second others, despite their pros and cons, I've rarely regretted having them in lists.

#21
Dark Shepherd

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Another thing Long Fangs have going for them is they can be good at counter battery fire

If your opponent has the heavy bolter & missile launcher for the strats, or Havocs with the fire twice strat, Long Fangs can (help) take them out turn one before they mess up your transports

Thunder hammers cant do that
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#22
Kallas

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If your opponent has the heavy bolter & missile launcher for the strats, or Havocs with the fire twice strat, Long Fangs can (help) take them out turn one before they mess up your transports

 

Typically, opponents won't leave their strong threats exposed if they're going second, if they are reasonably competent. A unit of Havocs, as an example, is pretty easy to conceal.



#23
Dark Shepherd

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Units with penalties for moving and firing tend to in my experience. Opponents tend to place them on upper floors, ruins etc. Theyre thinking in terms of bolters etc not heavy weapons

For havocs thats mitigated Round 1 if you go first. Still applies for subsequent turns though

#24
Gherrick

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I've seen mention of taking 5 heavy weapons plus a WG model, and wanted to clarify if that is legal again. In the codex, it lists the max unit size for LF as 5-6, where the index originally had it as 5-7. It's my understanding that if we take a WG leader, we are then limited to only 4 heavy weapons.



#25
Cpt.Danjou

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This is what the rules says on Long Fangs page 114 SW codex.

 

"The unit contains 1 Long Fang Pack Leader and 4 Long Fangs. It can include 1 additional Long Fang (Power Rating+x). It can also include either a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Power Rating +x) or a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader (Power Rating +X)

*Snip*

Any Long Fang may replace his boltgun with an item from Heavy weapons list."

 

As the rules says we then can have 5 Long fangs with heavy weapons and a pack leader plus a wolf guard if we max it.

 

Edit: spelling


Edited by Cpt.Danjou, 17 April 2020 - 06:20 PM.

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